Ladino Clover / Cereal Rye??

[TomRC]

I’m in western KY and started a Ladino clover plot last fall that is about 1 acre, frost seeded more Ladino this past winter and have sprayed with Clethodim and 24db late spring and will spray Clethodim and 24DB again mid to late August to control weeds. Most afternoons there are 10 to 15 deer in it, sometimes more but overall the Ladino is doing pretty well considering the HEAVY pressure it gets but there are some bare spots.

My question is regarding overseeding the Ladino in September with Cereal Rye to take a little pressure off the clover and give the deer something tasty until spring greenup. My plan is to overseed (just broadcast) 200lbs of cereal rye into the standing Ladino mid September and then broadcast another 100lbs of cereal rye mid October. Is this a good plan and more importantly are the amounts of cereal rye I plan to broadcast about right? My long term goal for this plot is to get the healthiest stand of Ladino I can year after year but want to avoid doing anything that will stunt the Ladino. Thanks in advance!

 

[SD51555]

If you've got healthy ladino, you're gonna have a hard time getting rye up in it without knocking it back one way or another.

**Depending how your season unfolds, maybe you can broadcast rye into it after the deer have started the chowdown. In my area, deer take clover first, and really don't eat rye.

 

[BobinCt]

I don’t think you will get much germination broadcasting Rye into an existing perennial clover stand. Also, you don’t need anymore ladino seed this year unless you have bare spots. You should get 3 years ( easy with a decent PH) out of the clover plot if you fertilizer it yearly. My answer would be to break up the 1 acre and keep 25 per of it clover and use the other 75 per for cereal grains and brassicas. Or do three separate plots 1 clover, 2 cereal, 3 brassicas. Look at the LC Mix Plot and copy that.

 

[TomRC]

Appreciate the input but I want to keep it pure clover. I just had read where some people overseed perennial clover plots in the fall with cereal rye or winter wheat. One other question, I've got a core aerator I use on my yard that I tow behind my tractor. Is there any downside to core aerating a perennial clover food plot. Never really here of people doing this but if core aerating helps yards if seems like it would help food plots as well.

 

[yoderjac]

Appreciate the input but I want to keep it pure clover. I just had read where some people overseed perennial clover plots in the fall with cereal rye or winter wheat. One other question, I've got a core aerator I use on my yard that I tow behind my tractor. Is there any downside to core aerating a perennial clover food plot. Never really here of people doing this but if core aerating helps yards if seems like it would help food plots as well.

What do you think it would accomplish? What problem are you trying to fix?

If you are in Kentucky, there is a video at the end of this thread you should watch: https://habitat-talk.com/threads/cereal-rye-vs-wheat-question.14773/

This thread is not directly related to your question, but think you would benefit from it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TomRC]

Not really trying to fix a problem just wondering if perennial clover food plots would benefit from core aerating the same way yards benefit from core aerating. Seems like they would as its one of the best things you can do on an annual basis to your yard.

 

[Bassattackr]

You can lightly disc to set back the clover and expose some soil to add the cereal grain planting. 150# / acre is plenty, provided you can roll or pack it in.

Nothing wrong with your plan at all.

Good luck!

 

[yoderjac]

Not really trying to fix a problem just wondering if perennial clover food plots would benefit from core aerating the same way yards benefit from core aerating. Seems like they would as its one of the best things you can do on an annual basis to your yard.

Clover is not turf grass. There may be specific soil conditions where some form of aeration may be beneficial, but not in general. The starting point is understanding soils. There are several techniques for incorporating cereal into established clover. I would not recommend spring planted WR. Oats may be a better cereal for spring. Incorporating WR in the fall would be a reasonable approach.

 

[TomRC]

That was my concern as clover isn't turf grass and I was curious if aerating could actually hurt the clover. It's no effort for me to aerate but don't want to hurt the Ladino but it sounds like aerating might. I'm thrilled with the Ladino and like the idea of just doing perennial clover moving forward. SO MUCH less effort and cost than starting from scratch every year with annuals and the deer and turkey love it!

 

[yoderjac]

That was my concern as clover isn't turf grass and I was curious if aerating could actually hurt the clover. It's no effort for me to aerate but don't want to hurt the Ladino but it sounds like aerating might. I'm thrilled with the Ladino and like the idea of just doing perennial clover moving forward. SO MUCH less effort and cost than starting from scratch every year with annuals and the deer and turkey love it!

I don't know that aeration will hurt, but it certainly opens of ground for summer weeds. Either way, you will always be fighting weeds if you want a clean stand of clover. Lots of cost and herbicide as well as time and deer don't care at all. Perennial plots are great, but consider adding something like chicory to ladino clover when you establish it. It is a non-legume perennial that deer eat that will complement the clover well.

 

[TomRC]

Sprayed Clethodim and 24DB late spring and early summer that knocked the weeds back pretty good and helped to thicken up the Ladino a good bit. I'll be hooking up the sprayer again shortly. June and July were brutally hot and dry and I have been surprised that the Ladino has survived as well as it has and there are 15+ deer in it almost EVERY afternoon. Ladino has impressed me! My thought on overseeding with cereal rye were just to take the pressure off the clover a tad and give the critters some additional nutrition through winter. Appreciate all the input!

 

[yoderjac]

Sprayed Clethodim and 24DB late spring and early summer that knocked the weeds back pretty good and helped to thicken up the Ladino a good bit. I'll be hooking up the sprayer again shortly. June and July were brutally hot and dry and I have been surprised that the Ladino has survived as well as it has and there are 15+ deer in it almost EVERY afternoon. Ladino has impressed me! My thought on overseeding with cereal rye were just to take the pressure off the clover a tad and give the critters some additional nutrition through winter. Appreciate all the input!

Consider Durana rather than ladino in the future. It is more drought resistant and persistent than ladino. It is slower to establish. It is best planted in the fall with a Winter Rye nurse crop. The first spring I mow the WR each time it get between a foot and 18" back to about 6" with rain in the forecast. That slowly releases the Durana and lets the WR die naturally. It helps suppress weeds to start with a clean plot. After that, I become very weed tolerant and let weeds go. Just before the season when evenings cool down to favor the clover, I'll mow. It is amazing how the clover bounce back. Deer benefit from the weeds in the summer and it is another way to get diversity.

 

[TomRC]

This will be my third fall in KY and I used winter wheat as a nurse crop when I started the Ladino last fall. The year prior I planted a straight winter wheat plot (nothing else) and the winter wheat did great. Last fall the winter wheat didn't do as well with the Ladino so that's why I thought I'd overseed the Ladino with cereal rye this fall. PH levels are good and I've fertilized per soil test results so I was surprised the winter wheat didn't do as good with the Ladino. From what I've read cereal rye does a little better than winter wheat if there are any soil deficiencies so I thought I'd try overseeding the Ladino with cereal rye this fall.

Almost went with Durana, probably should have but the Ladino has done great. I've had good luck frost seeding and I've even thought about frost seeding Durana into the Ladino next winter. I wonder if over a few years of frost seeding Durana it would eventually overtake the Ladino or if the two even do well together.

 

[yoderjac]

This will be my third fall in KY and I used winter wheat as a nurse crop when I started the Ladino last fall. The year prior I planted a straight winter wheat plot (nothing else) and the winter wheat did great. Last fall the winter wheat didn't do as well with the Ladino so that's why I thought I'd overseed the Ladino with cereal rye this fall. PH levels are good and I've fertilized per soil test results so I was surprised the winter wheat didn't do as good with the Ladino. From what I've read cereal rye does a little better than winter wheat if there are any soil deficiencies so I thought I'd try overseeding the Ladino with cereal rye this fall.

Almost went with Durana, probably should have but the Ladino has done great. I've had good luck frost seeding and I've even thought about frost seeding Durana into the Ladino next winter. I wonder if over a few years of frost seeding Durana it would eventually overtake the Ladino or if the two even do well together.

There are several ways to overseed. One is with a drill. Another is to surface broadcast. In both cases you need to either disturb the clover or suppress it by top killing it. I don't like to do that on a field until it is 2 years old. You can bushhog flat or use gly at 1 qt/ac. I find it is less risky to top kill clover until it is well established. After 2 years, I'm confident it will bounce back from the root system. You can try it without suppressing the clover but as others have said, your results may not be good.

Ladino is a fine and inexpensive clover for deer. It just doesn't deal with drought as well. In my area most years it does not go dormant at all. In dry years it goes dormant for a much shorter period than ladino. Once established it gives me 3 or 4 more years than ladino before I have to rotate to an N-seeking crop.

 

[Nightvision]

If you have access to a drill you could mow the clover short then drill that WR. If it touches dirt, it will come up as long as the clover doesn’t shade it out. And I’m talking about a conventional drill. Not a no-till.

 

[TomRC]

I'd like to buy a drill but they are expensive. The clover is only about 2 to 4 inches high so I'm thinking the rye won't be shaded out if I just broadcast it. I haven't mowed it in a couple months but It get mowed every day!

 

[SD51555]

Oh man. You need a pallet of jars to get canning.

After seeing that picture, I retract my prediction that you cannot get rye up in that without doing anything. If you've got a long enough growing season, I might consider spreading some warm season grass in there like a japanese millet and/or sorghum if you can get it to germinate. You could easily enough mow off that japanese millet later and throw rye in when rye time comes around.

 

[FarmerDan]

Me? I would leave the clover alone. There ae only so many golden eggs a goose can lay. Push more clover production - if that's possible.

 

[TomRC]

FarmerDan, overseeding the rye into the clover is part of the long term plan to push more clover production. This is what I'm trying to understand and why I started this thread. It is my understanding that overseeding perennial clovers in the fall with something like rye or winter wheat you are getting the two fold benefit of giving the deer and turkey some added nutrition later into the winter and helping the clover LONG TERM. Long term clover production is my ONLY goal and I thought overseeding with rye every fall would help HELP the clover. It seems like some think it will help the clover long term and some think it won't help the clover long term. At this point I'm confused due to conflicting feedback on whether overseeding the clover with rye will help the clover or not????????????

 

[FarmerDan]

Again, if you want clover, focus on the clover. If your clover was competing with grass would you consider the grass a weed and want to control it in order to allow the clover to thrive?

Rye and/or oats has its place in the establishment of a good stand of clover. You get that part, right?