Growing Apples From Seed

[S.T.Fanatic]

So I picked a bunch of apples the other day from a tree that has been on our property for a very long time. I guess it is possible that it was planted but highly unlikely. I think it is much more likely that it grew from seed of an apple that was tossed on the ground. Anyway, When growing trees from seed what are the advantages of using rootmaker trays/pots? I really dont feel like spending the money on them if there is no major difference.

 

[sandbur]

So I picked a bunch of apples the other day from a tree that has been on our property for a very long time. I guess it is possible that it was planted but highly unlikely. I think it is much more likely that it grew from seed of an apple that was tossed on the ground. Anyway, When growing trees from seed what are the advantages of using rootmaker trays/pots? I really dont feel like spending the money on them if there is no major difference.

The better care you take of them the better growth you will get. The pots and trays allow better control of the growing conditions and are easier to plant when putting them in the final location.

How much time and money do you want to invest?

I used to grow them in pots and rootrappers and start them indoors in the winter.

Now I just plant a few in the garden and protect them from mice, rabbits, and deer.

My recommendation if you have lots of seed is to discard the 25 to 50% that are slow growers and take better care of the rest.

Been there and done it.


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[CrazyEd]

Buy a few rootstocks and find varieties of apples you like and graft/clone them. This will sound harsh and i'ts not intended to be, but I dont see any benefit at all of growing apples from seed, it's a huge waste of time.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Ideally no money invested. I don't have much of it and even less now. (I had some POS steel a few hundred bucks worth of change out of my vehicle last night/morning)

I was thinking of potting them indoors this winter in front of my South facing windows.

As far as time, I have the same amount as everyone else.

 

[yoderjac]

So I picked a bunch of apples the other day from a tree that has been on our property for a very long time. I guess it is possible that it was planted but highly unlikely. I think it is much more likely that it grew from seed of an apple that was tossed on the ground. Anyway, When growing trees from seed what are the advantages of using rootmaker trays/pots? I really dont feel like spending the money on them if there is no major difference.

Here is my experience with apples from seed: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/starting-apples-from-seed-indoors-how-to.6613/

The main advantages are these:

- No circling or j-hooking of roots when compared to plain smooth containers.
- A much denser and more efficient root system than a naturally grown tree. Energy that would go into producing a long tap root to ensure survival when young goes to the root system and increased top growth.
- Depending on your location with respect to the final location, it can allow for much better care (trees on my deck verses trees 1.5 hours away).

Keep in mind that root pruning takes a system of containers, not just one to be effective.

As for your south facing window...Don't. Whitcomb's research shows that starting trees early in a greenhouse is the worst thing you can do for the root system. The low angle and intensity of the sun during the winter causes trees that look fine above the ground but have very weak root systems. If you plan to start trees indoors, invest in a cheap shop light or two and rig them so you can adjust the height to be a few inches above the trees as they grow. Light energy diminishes with the distance squared.

If you want a low cost approach, I would cold stratify the seeds over winter and plant them in early spring in the final location and protect them. Using root pruning containers will allow for faster growth and allow you to cull the trees picking the best to plant.

One more thing. Keep in mind that seed grown apples will be full sized trees and take much more time to produce fruit than a grafted tree or a grafted tree on clonal rootstock. You will have no idea what the fruit will be like since you can only assume 50% of the genetics. You could get a deer crab or a bird crab or even an ornamental type fruit.

After my experiment documented in the link above, I won't be doing any more from seed. I've grafted over most of those trees and from here forward I plan to graft to clonal rootstock (m111 is best for my soils and area).

Thanks,

Jack

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Basically I am using this seed because I know it is a very winter hearty tree, and because the seed is free. The tree that the apples came from is without a doubt a full sized tree.

 

[yoderjac]

Basically I am using this seed because I know it is a very winter hearty tree, and because the seed is free. The tree that the apples came from is without a doubt a full sized tree.

You can certainly use seedlings as rootstock. I will say that a significant percentage of mine were highly susceptible to some disease like powdery mildew. It was interesting how some seedlings were very exposed and didn't get infected and others were severely impacted. I discarded those. Growing them in root pruning containers for a season or two will allow you to evaluate and exclude any that are disease prone.

If it were me, I would still graft these seedlings. After they are one growing season old, I'd graft them the following spring using scions from the parent tree. This will do a few things. First you should have very high takes since they will be very compatible with the rootstock. Second, natural trees spend the early years focused on vegetative growth until they are very well established and then switch to a fruiting state for propagation. Using a scion from a mature tree will have those mature tree hormones and will likely fruit at an early age than the seedling would have on its own. More importantly, the fruit will be the same as the parent tree. There is less chance you will get fruit that are more appropriate for birds than deer.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[Apple Junkie]

Ideally no money invested. I don't have much of it and even less now. (I had some POS steel a few hundred bucks worth of change out of my vehicle last night/morning)

I was thinking of potting them indoors this winter in front of my South facing windows.

As far as time, I have the same amount as everyone else.

Just to emphasize what Jack alluded to above, in order for apple seeds to germinate, they first need to go through a period of cold stratification - usually 70 to 90 days. If you put them in zip lock bag and put the bag in the fridge today, you could plant them mid-February and probably be OK. Another option (and probably a better one) is to cut some scion wood from the tree you want to clone and graft it to rootstock you can purchase from a nursery pretty cheap (MM.111 from Cummins is $2.75 each). Of course, this assumes you can master the art of grafting, which I have yet to do.

If you really want to grow some apples from seed, go for it. It sounds like we have all had to scratch that itch, including me. Just remember to stratify your seeds first, good luck.

 

[sandbur]

I enjoy growing apples from the hardy wild crabs we have in my area. You never know what you will get.

I have also grown open pollinated seedlings from known varieties.
I have some open pollinated Kinderkrisp and Almata seeds in the ground right now.

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[S.T.Fanatic]

Thanks for the helpful advice guys. I’ll try to get some scion wood this winter. The main reason I’m planting seeds is because this tree is more than likely not going to be around next year. All but the top 1/8th of the tree is dead. No root suckers either.


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[S.T.Fanatic]

What root pruning containers should I look to purchase (if that’s my best bet for high success rates)


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[yoderjac]

What root pruning containers should I look to purchase (if that’s my best bet for high success rates)


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One key to air pruning is to prune at the right point. Research shows that when a root is pruned, most of the upstream branching occurs in the first 4" from the pruning point. So, the first container should prune the tap root at about 4". These first stage containers are good for about 16 weeks. Each subsequent stage should allow about 4" on all sides of that root ball. There is a trade off with what is optimal for root development and what is practical.

The containers I like best for the first stage are Rootmaker Express 18s. The cells are heavy duty and can be removed from the tray and reorganized. This makes it easier to keep the lights about the same height from all the seedlings. They are more expensive than the basic Rootmaker 18s. They work just as well but the cells are not removable and the plastic is more brittle. They are good for several seasons but eventually wear out unlike the Express cells.

If your budget is very tight, you can use the DIY containers I experimented with here: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5542/#post-107862 These are very inexpensive to make. They dry out more quickly than rootmaker cells so you have to keep a closer eye on watering but they work just as well. Some trees like chestnuts are much more sensitive to water than apples. If you decide to go this route, let me know. I have many of these that don't get used since I have plenty of express trays now.

I use 1 gal RB2s for the second stage and finish with 3 gal RB2s (Rootmaker Rootbuilder II). If you look at actual dimensions, the 4" rule lies in between. Someone else was just asking me about this. I think you could probably skip the 1 gal stage if cost is a real issue. The root system may be a bit less dense but I'm not sure one would notice it with the final result. I like the RB2 style container because they are reuseable for many years and they unwrap. The diameter is perfect for matching my tractor auger for planting. I have heavy clay so my planting technique may be different than many.

Many folks use air pruning style bags for the second stage. They are less convenient but if the size follows the 4" rule they work just as well. They can dry out faster so again keep an eye on watering. They are less reuseable but less expensive than RB2s. Some are biodegradable and intended to be planted along with the rootball for one time use.

I would avoid smooth sided containers because you have root circling and j-hooking issues. Direct seeding can work well too, you don't get that early jump start or accelerated early growth.

One last thought: I don't provide supplemental water after planting my trees. By far, trees planted after they have filled a 3 gal RB2 do much better than trying to plant them from 1 gal and planting directly from 18s is a complete failure for me. If you don't provide supplemental water after planting, your climate is a factor in success. While a root system from a root pruning container system is much more dense and efficient than a native seedling and can make much more efficient use of nutrients and water, it can only use what it can reach. A native seedling sinks a tap root for a reason. It is kind of insurance against drought before the tree is fully established. The tap root gets deep enough that there is some moisture available for the tree. I would not recommend root pruning for arid regions where supplemental water can not be provided during drought. Once a rootmaker tree is in the ground for a few years, it has plenty of reach in most regions to get enough water. They work great in my climate. The more prone you are to drought, the more a natural tap root will benefit you.


Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

Further,

I believe the rootmaker system works better for the professional nursery where water not an issue

As the taproot is pruned , top growth enhanced( more appealing to consumer) and root circling avoided( viability improved if kept on the lot and not sold right away)

Transplantation of RM18s is uniformly fatal without supplemental water
Transplantation or RBII is still somewhat of a gamble

As I gain more experience, the more I follow "Respect,don't resect" the taproot philosophy

bill

 

[yoderjac]

Further,

I believe the rootmaker system works better for the professional nursery where water not an issue

As the taproot is pruned , top growth enhanced( more appealing to consumer) and root circling avoided( viability improved if kept on the lot and not sold right away)

Transplantation of RM18s is uniformly fatal without supplemental water
Transplantation or RBII is still somewhat of a gamble

As I gain more experience, the more I follow "Respect,don't resect" the taproot philosophy

bill

I agree in some areas. That is were the regional aspect of my previous post comes in. Actually most professional nurseries don't use rootmakers or any root pruning system. The reason is that the cost is much higher than smooth plastic containers (labor, not just material) and most consumers don't complain. The trees look fine above ground and trees don't have any symptoms from those circling and j-hooking roots until quite a few years after planting when the roots grow and finally constrict themselves.

In a region prone to long periods without rain and sandy soils that dry out pretty deep, I completely agree that a natural tap root works best. In my area, we get plenty of reliable spring/fall/winter precipitation and I have heavy clay soil. Clay has lots of down sides, but one up side is that it does retain moisture well. While we do get some summers with little rain, that has not been a problem for me, but I do take precautions with my planting method.

I use a tractor auger to drill a hole almost the same size as the RB2 from which I'm planting. Sometime I need to stand on the medium to force it down into the hole. I do use a hand rake to prevent any glazing on the sides of the hole from the auger. I plant most trees in the fall. They have plenty of moisture naturally during are fall, winter, and the following spring. By the time summer rolls around, the lateral roots have grown well into the clay and can get sufficient moisture even if we have a dry summer.

Folks with the combination of sandy soil and drought periods should either direct seed, or commit to providing supplemental water during dry periods until the tree is established enough that the roots are deep enough to get at water during drought. This could take several years depending on the region.

There is no one-size-fits all solution.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[CrazyEd]

As far as time, I have the same amount as everyone else.

I guess, but grafted trees for me usually fruit in 1-2-3 years where you know what you get with fruit type/characteristics and rootstock (overall size of the tree). From seed at least double or triple the time and who knows what you get for fruit. It could be pea sized that drops in July, it could be the next Honeycrisp.

When is a good time to plant a fruit tree? 10 years ago.

 

[NE PA QDM]

I grow a few seedlings from seeds every year, mostly just to occupy my time during the winter. If they grow I use them as rootstock.
Yes, they will grow to standard size and have unknown disease resistance.
I grafted a known variety (Tull, sent to me from Merle, thanks again!!!) onto a 2nd leaf seedling last year. This year (2nd leaf after grafting) it set fruit. That tree definitely got babied and full sun and plenty of water, but a seedling rootstock doesn't always have to take 10 years to bear fruit. I wouldn't encourage other people to use seedlings from seeds instead of known/classified rootstocks but I think it's a fun project to grow your own from "scratch" as an adjunct to other planting and grafting projects.

 

[yoderjac]

Also, keep in mind that clonal rootstock is pretty inexpensive. I typically use M111 because that is well suited for my heavy clay. I pay $3 or less depending on the quantity I buy. For a pretty small investment, you could make copies of your apple tree. This is a lot less expensive than buying a root pruning container system to try to grow seedlings. Buy whatever rootstock is well suited for your area. Check with a local orchard if you don't know. If for some reason, you really want a full size tree grown on its own roots, you can simply plant the grafted trees so the graft is under the soil. The clonal rootstock will sustain the tree but eventually it will develop its own roots.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Thanks for all of you inputs guys. I really do appreciate it. My plan is to grow these seeds and see what I end up with. I'm ok with whatever happens.

In the meantime while my seeds are growing my plan is to buy some crab varieties that will produce much quicker. Im actually going to use them as markers on the edge of my food plot to plant 8 different strips of different forages instead of just using a mix or a rotation.

 

[Apple Junkie]

Very smart S.T. Keep us posted on your progress of course.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I am going to get my seeds in the ground after work. A question I have when it comes to future grafting. How long should I wait to graft to them? Next spring, 2 years, 3 years?

Also, what can I graft to them? They are seeds from a large apple "fruit size" tree. Can I graft crabs to them?

One of the areas I am going to plant them was just burned this past Saturday. I will go back in the near future and take care of the grass that will be growing up around them with herbicide before the trees start to grow and/or fabric with cages.