Fall Rye?

[Scott S]

Tis the season for paranoid rookie questions from your pal Scott S.

I had my wife go to our closest farm store this week with instructions to get some winter rye and ladino clover seeds. She came home with a bag of "Fall Rye" the seed looks the same as the winter rye I bought last year, but I've never heard of Fall Rye. My gut and my brief googling has lead me to believe that Fall Rye and Winter Rye are the same. Is that the case?

Thanks!

 

[swat1018]

Never heard it called that, but as long as it is a grain, and doesn't look like grass seed, I'd say you're good.

 

[cspot]

That is a new one. Never heard of fall rye.

 

[Tree Spud]

Tis the season for paranoid rookie questions from your pal Scott S.

I had my wife go to our closest farm store this week with instructions to get some winter rye and ladino clover seeds. She came home with a bag of "Fall Rye" the seed looks the same as the winter rye I bought last year, but I've never heard of Fall Rye. My gut and my brief googling has lead me to believe that Fall Rye and Winter Rye are the same. Is that the case?

Thanks!

Sounds perfect ... make sure she had some diversity by adding ...
Sunset thistle
Canary grass sunrise
Garlic mustard herb
Purple loostrife suprise

 

[Islandguy]

Pretty common to be called either in my area.

 

[Bill]

Right side = rye grass = BAD...

Left side = rye grain=GOOD...

If you have the stuff on the left you’re good!

 

[yoderjac]

It doesn't matter much what kind of seed it is. The simple fact that you sent your wife to buy seed and you are still married means you are way ahead of the game!

 

[Scott S]

Thank you all as always. I'm in business. It looks exactly like last year's seed and Bill's left side option.

I love the sounds of the diversity you mentioned, Tree Spud. The reality I face is that I'm planting in shady 4.5 pH soil in rock and boulder laced New Hampshire woods. I don't know much of anything about the plants you suggest, but I'm skeptical that they'd do very well for me. Please do correct me if wrong. Rotating winter rye with buckwheat for the next few decades seems like my only appropriate strategy. I've got the clover in there for some diversity, and because it seems to grow better for me than the rye does, somehow. I expected the opposite, but I take it as it comes.

No doubt about it, Jack. She's an angel.

Thanks again, guys.

 

[yoderjac]

Thank you all as always. I'm in business. It looks exactly like last year's seed and Bill's left side option.

I love the sounds of the diversity you mentioned, Tree Spud. The reality I face is that I'm planting in shady 4.5 pH soil in rock and boulder laced New Hampshire woods. I don't know much of anything about the plants you suggest, but I'm skeptical that they'd do very well for me. Please do correct me if wrong. Rotating winter rye with buckwheat for the next few decades seems like my only appropriate strategy. I've got the clover in there for some diversity, and because it seems to grow better for me than the rye does, somehow. I expected the opposite, but I take it as it comes.

No doubt about it, Jack. She's an angel.

Thanks again, guys.

I believe his post was tongue in cheek. Diversity is a great idea though. You will need lime to get that pH up some. I'm not sure how it does in your location, but I experimented with mixing Sunn Hemp in with my winter rye. It is pH and fertility tolerant as well. My seeding rate was too light, but things did well enough that I'll go that route again next spring.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bill]

I believe his post was tongue in cheek.

Right that was Spud being Spud. Dry sense of humor. Their all weeds that sometimes end up in bad seed...

 

[Scott S]

Haha. Understood. Thanks guys.

 

[Tree Spud]

Thank you all as always. I'm in business. It looks exactly like last year's seed and Bill's left side option.

I love the sounds of the diversity you mentioned, Tree Spud. The reality I face is that I'm planting in shady 4.5 pH soil in rock and boulder laced New Hampshire woods. I don't know much of anything about the plants you suggest, but I'm skeptical that they'd do very well for me. Please do correct me if wrong. Rotating winter rye with buckwheat for the next few decades seems like my only appropriate strategy. I've got the clover in there for some diversity, and because it seems to grow better for me than the rye does, somehow. I expected the opposite, but I take it as it comes.

No doubt about it, Jack. She's an angel.

Thanks again, guys.

Scott ... yes, as mentioned above I was being a bit tongue in cheek ...

In all seriousness Bill's picture above is spot on. rye grass on the right is a perennial that will re-seed itself and choke out everything else you plant. The winter rye on the left is an annual and the fall seed you want to plant. Below is the LC Mix that is often discussed here. It has good diversity and adds to the soil health. if you want to read up on cereal grains, the link below is a good one ... For you this fall, you can add red clover to your WR and in the spring both will green up and give your plot a good start. Good luck!

Cereal Grains

Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Phase 1 – Carry over from previous Fall (will emerge in spring after thaw) Alice, Kopu II, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Phase 2 – Plant Mid July

Brassicas in 45% of plot
Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5# per acre

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or crimson and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)


Phase 3 – Plant in Mid August
Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot...we use 50# each rye, oats and peas along with radish and clover seed all planted in half of each feeding area
Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 50-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Frostmaster Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28 but for best results soil test and add only what is necessary.

Notes
Rotate the brassica plot and cereal grain (rye & oats) plots each year
Fertilizing - Plant your brassicas when you want, add some ammonia nitrate 34-0-0 or 19-19-19 at planting (Ammonia nitrate won't evaporate into the air like urea will) and then hit it with urea about 4- 6 weeks later (3 to 4 leaves showing), when you are 100% positive you will get about a 1/4 of an inch of rain or more. Brassicas love nitrogen and they will benefit from 2 good feedings.
Cereal Grains

 

[Scott S]

Scott ... yes, as mentioned above I was being a bit tongue in cheek ...

In all seriousness Bill's picture above is spot on. rye grass on the right is a perennial that will re-seed itself and choke out everything else you plant. The winter rye on the left is an annual and the fall seed you want to plant. Below is the LC Mix that is often discussed here. It has good diversity and adds to the soil health. if you want to read up on cereal grains, the link below is a good one ... For you this fall, you can add red clover to your WR and in the spring both will green up and give your plot a good start. Good luck!

Cereal Grains

Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Phase 1 – Carry over from previous Fall (will emerge in spring after thaw) Alice, Kopu II, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Phase 2 – Plant Mid July

Brassicas in 45% of plot
Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5# per acre

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or crimson and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)


Phase 3 – Plant in Mid August
Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot...we use 50# each rye, oats and peas along with radish and clover seed all planted in half of each feeding area
Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 50-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Frostmaster Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28 but for best results soil test and add only what is necessary.

Notes
Rotate the brassica plot and cereal grain (rye & oats) plots each year
Fertilizing - Plant your brassicas when you want, add some ammonia nitrate 34-0-0 or 19-19-19 at planting (Ammonia nitrate won't evaporate into the air like urea will) and then hit it with urea about 4- 6 weeks later (3 to 4 leaves showing), when you are 100% positive you will get about a 1/4 of an inch of rain or more. Brassicas love nitrogen and they will benefit from 2 good feedings.
Cereal Grains

Roger that. I was too ignorant on the topic to get the joke.

I've read the LC stuff a few times. That's my plan once I have respectable pH. I've got a ways to go I think. I'm just using rye, clover, and buckwheat until then.

Thank you all for taking the time to help.

 

[Rit]

I believe his post was tongue in cheek. Diversity is a great idea though. You will need lime to get that pH up some. I'm not sure how it does in your location, but I experimented with mixing Sunn Hemp in with my winter rye. It is pH and fertility tolerant as well. My seeding rate was too light, but things did well enough that I'll go that route again next spring.

Thanks,

Jack

Just out of curiosity what was your seeding rate? This was Spring planted into WR? I had al intentions of adding Sunn Hemp this Spring but rain made it impossible.

 

[yoderjac]

Just out of curiosity what was your seeding rate? This was Spring planted into WR? I had al intentions of adding Sunn Hemp this Spring but rain made it impossible.

(For others as well...)

We have been having issues with Marestail in our RR beans. After a pine thinning and controlled burn it popped up all over the place in the pine. It then got into our fields. Since it is naturally gly resistant, planting RR beans and using gly was just promoting it. So, we started on a program to control it. Last spring I hit it with 24D amine, waited a couple weeks and then planted buckwheat as a smother crop. I was concerned that the soil residual effect may be a problem for the buckwheat, but we must have waited long enough.

This year, I wanted to spend at least one more year controlling it. I've always been intrigued with sunn hemp. It is a legume that fixes a lot of N and can tolerate poor pH and infertile soil. I decided to mix it with buckwheat. I looked around for seeding rates, and the best I could find was 10 lbs/ac of each for a mix. I was concerned that higher rates of buckwheat would smother the sunn hemp. My cover crop last year was WR/CC/PTT. I first sprayed it with 24D for marestail control and then waited a couple weeks. I then surface broadcast 10 lb/ac of Sunn hemp and 10/lbs/ac of WR into the cover crop. Next, I used my little no-till kasco versadrill. I plugged all but one tube and put sunflowers in it. It has a cultipacker to close the rows and I figured this would push the buckwheat and sunn hemp into the soil a bit.

Results:

I got almost no sunflowers. I suspect this was largely due to browse pressure. I got good buckwheat germination, but it was thin. As the plot grew, I could find little buckwheat. This is what keyed me in on the browse pressure issue. Buckwheat germinates quickly and when you don't later find mature buckwheat, you know where it went. It may have taken my deer some time to get used to sunn hemp. Because the field was thin, a lot of grasses and weeds are in the field. This is not necessarily bad since there is still good sunn hemp in the field and many of the broadleaf weeds are good deer food.

In several fields the sunn hemp is browsed heavily. In other fields there are areas where it has grown significantly taller than the weeds. All in all with that planting method, I will increase my rates next year by a factor of 2 or 3.

For comparison, I have some retirement property about 15 miles away. It has been in pasture for many years and the soil is much better. It still has a high clay content but has much more OM. I planted about 25 lbs/ac of each on that field and opened a second tub for sunflowers. It is a much thicker field with both mature buckwheat, sunn hemp, and a fair number of sunflowers. I'll try to remember to a picture next time I'm down. I'm guessing that location has lower deer densities as well. While there are weeds in that field, it is clearly dominated by the crops I planted.

Thanks,

Jack