Natty Bumppo
5 year old buck +
I don't care who uses what. To each his own. But I really can't stand the narrative you hear that crossbows offer no advantage over longbows or compounds bows. Please.
Illinois joins the crossbow list
- Thread starter bueller
- Start date
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I certainly haven't seen that narrative in this thread. I'm not ever sure I've seen that line from the crossbow manufacturers trying to get them accepted in a state.
Thanks,
Jack
Natty Bumppo
5 year old buck +
Hi Jack,
I did see somebody suggest that crossbows offer no advantage in this thread. This topic comes up every few months. Crossbows or no crossbows. It's a tired conversation IMHO. To each his own, as I said. I have no issue with anybody who wants to use one when legal in their state. But invariably you begin hearing from the pro-crossbow group that they offer no advantage over compounds bows, probably as a counter-argument to the claim by the anti-crossbow group that crossbows are not bows, they're too easy, it's not bow-hunting, etc.
Again, if one wants to use a cross-bow, I support that. I have friends who use them. I've shot them. Someday I can imagine a time (age) when I'll use one to hunt. Just don't blow smoke up my arse about crossbows offering no advantage. I think it's a dishonest conversation about a point and shoot scoped weapon that can be supported with a rest and shoots a bolt at a higher draw weight than many can pull on their own.
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
I'm with you that inclusion is based on money, but not as much from tag sales. We had inclusion in 2013 (I think) and it was pushed through by a certain legislator who at the time was seen eating lunches with a big name crossbow manufacture rep, and with an auto insurer. Surveys, meetings, and social media all indicated that the population didn't want inclusion but deep pockets win out every time. I think there is a lot bigger money to be made than from tag sales. It's a shame to watch how politics work for those with money and against those who vote.
I've been on both sides of the crossbow argument and have to admit I've made mistakes along the way. My first fight was 100% against and I was vocal to lawmakers about it. Turns out I had never hunted with one and didn't know what I was talking about. My views were based solely on preconceived prejudices.
Second fight was after I got one and shot a couple of deer with it I realized something; it gave me no significant advantage over my compound. Completely lateral move so I figure they are no big deal. No extension of effective range, no effective addition to knockdown power, no less movement to acquire the target, no need to practice more or less, no advantage whatsoever... in my hands. But here is what I was leaving out in my mind; after 30 yrs of compound hunting I have become proficient at shooting deer with a compound. Drawing a on a deer and shooting a compound is easy. I can literally pick up my compound after letting it sit for several months and drill the bulls-eye at 30yds with the first 3 shots. I never get picked off during the draw cycle. But, I have 30yrs of practice at this and that should be taken into account. Just because deer never pick me off and just because compounds are easy for me to shoot doesn't mean that everyone has the same experience. For many, a compound presents significant challenges that a crossbow doesn't. I'm in no position to argue someone else's ability to shoot or hunt hunt at close range. And I'm certainly in no position to argue their ability against mine.
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
Natty ... I think you are being a bit harsh ... I don't see any advantages over a bow ... well maybe a few ...
Tap
5 year old buck +
I think your post says as much about the current state of high tech archery as it does about crossbows.
When states legalized bow seasons, the vision and intention was that hunting deer with a bow would be close range and difficult and would require dedication. Boy, has that ever changed!
We now have mentored bowhunting where even a 5 year-old can "bow hunt" with a cross weapon. These children might fall into the hunter recruitment category, but they certainly don't have the capacity to understand what killing an animal really is.
When kids of that age can shoot a crossbow, how on earth doesnt a crossbow offer an advantage over a hand-drawn bow?
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Why do you stop your "skill" argument with a modern compound bow? I have shot way more deer with my compound bow than I have with my recurve crossbow or my compound crossbow for that matter. I get just as close, just as quiet and do just as much scouting as I did when I was compound bow hunting exclusively. If you want to talk skill go kill one with your bare hands. I can get a damage permit to shoot deer with whatever weapon I want on at any time I want on my property. I can also assure you that you won't be hunting 'legally' on my land. You worry about your "skill" and I'll worry about how I choose to put meat in my freezer.
Tap
5 year old buck +
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I can't imagine anyone making the argument that crossbows offer no advantages over compound bows or that compound bows offer no advantages over recurve bows or recurve bows over longbows. For that matter inline muzzleloaders over flintlocks or rifles over shotguns with slugs or buckshot.
I think seasons in most states (mine for sure) are grouped around classes of weapons. They are an attempt to maximize recreational opportunity without having a detrimental impact on the resource. One could simply put all weapons in a single class and have one season. In order to keep the harvest number steady the season would likely not be much longer than the current firearms season. Sportsmen would probably not like this since many would loose their early season.
On the other end of the spectrum one could have individual seasons for each individual type of weapon. The issue here become the complication of regulations and enforcement. This is especially true in most states that don't have a uniform deer population or harvest goals. This means an overlay of locality regulations over top of a large number of weapons seasons regulations.
So what we have seems to be a reasonable compromise (at least in my state). When you look at effectiveness of weapon or skill required it kind of looks like this (and I'm leaving stuff out for simplicity):
Longbow.Recurve....Compound....Crossbow......................Flintlock....Caplock..........Inline................Shotgun.....................Rifle
The dots between items represent an approximate gap in capability. One can argue the fine points, but generally we have 3 classes.
Bows - Short range. Regardless of poundage or how far the arrow can be flung or kinetic energy stored in the arrow, and arrow can easily be deflected by a small twig or even grass. Unless you are in an open clover field or something similar, provided you have a low tolerance for wounding, distance is limited simply because you can't see small twigs beyond about 30 yards. Even with optics, you have one focal plane. None of these weapons can propel an arrow close to the speed of sound. That means string jumping is an issue for all weapons. While the fastest shooting compound and crossbows can flatten the curve a bit, very good distance estimation is required for all of these weapons. Distance is also limited simply because with the relatively slow projectile speeds, even deer that do not jump the string can move enough naturally for a well aimed arrow to miss the vitals by the time it arrives at longer distances. With my low tolerance for wounding, I limit my distance to 20 yards with a compound (not the best form from a treestand) and 30 with a crossbow. All of these weapons kill by bleeding, not hydrostatic shock like other classes of weapons. This means shot placement is much more limited.
Muzzleloaders - Mid Range single shot. There is a big reliability and time gap from trigger pull to fire with a flintlock but the range is about the same for all of these. While they usually are not shot that way, most can be scoped and sabots can be used if you want. You have a single shot and must make it count. They all have a cloud of smoke that obscures the target after discharge and visually following the escape route can be difficult. Distance is generally limited to about 100 yards. Sure you can push them a bit if you have the time and skills and maybe double that, but it depends on your wounding tolerance.
Shotguns - Mid Range multi-shot. Distance wise these probably overlap with the high end of the muzzleloader group but offer follow-up shots with no cloud of smoke to obscure your view.
Rifles - Long range multi-shot. Not much to be said here. Generally Shotguns with slugs are grouped with rifles as a class of modern firearms. In most cases the shotgun restriction is imposed in higher density population areas for safety reasons as a slug will not generally carry for miles like a rifle bullet.
It seems to me like our state has done a pretty good job of classing weapons and balancing maximizing recreational opportunity with maintaining the resource and keeping regulations understandable and enforceable.
Thanks,
jack
I think seasons in most states (mine for sure) are grouped around classes of weapons. They are an attempt to maximize recreational opportunity without having a detrimental impact on the resource. One could simply put all weapons in a single class and have one season. In order to keep the harvest number steady the season would likely not be much longer than the current firearms season. Sportsmen would probably not like this since many would loose their early season.
On the other end of the spectrum one could have individual seasons for each individual type of weapon. The issue here become the complication of regulations and enforcement. This is especially true in most states that don't have a uniform deer population or harvest goals. This means an overlay of locality regulations over top of a large number of weapons seasons regulations.
So what we have seems to be a reasonable compromise (at least in my state). When you look at effectiveness of weapon or skill required it kind of looks like this (and I'm leaving stuff out for simplicity):
Longbow.Recurve....Compound....Crossbow......................Flintlock....Caplock..........Inline................Shotgun.....................Rifle
The dots between items represent an approximate gap in capability. One can argue the fine points, but generally we have 3 classes.
Bows - Short range. Regardless of poundage or how far the arrow can be flung or kinetic energy stored in the arrow, and arrow can easily be deflected by a small twig or even grass. Unless you are in an open clover field or something similar, provided you have a low tolerance for wounding, distance is limited simply because you can't see small twigs beyond about 30 yards. Even with optics, you have one focal plane. None of these weapons can propel an arrow close to the speed of sound. That means string jumping is an issue for all weapons. While the fastest shooting compound and crossbows can flatten the curve a bit, very good distance estimation is required for all of these weapons. Distance is also limited simply because with the relatively slow projectile speeds, even deer that do not jump the string can move enough naturally for a well aimed arrow to miss the vitals by the time it arrives at longer distances. With my low tolerance for wounding, I limit my distance to 20 yards with a compound (not the best form from a treestand) and 30 with a crossbow. All of these weapons kill by bleeding, not hydrostatic shock like other classes of weapons. This means shot placement is much more limited.
Muzzleloaders - Mid Range single shot. There is a big reliability and time gap from trigger pull to fire with a flintlock but the range is about the same for all of these. While they usually are not shot that way, most can be scoped and sabots can be used if you want. You have a single shot and must make it count. They all have a cloud of smoke that obscures the target after discharge and visually following the escape route can be difficult. Distance is generally limited to about 100 yards. Sure you can push them a bit if you have the time and skills and maybe double that, but it depends on your wounding tolerance.
Shotguns - Mid Range multi-shot. Distance wise these probably overlap with the high end of the muzzleloader group but offer follow-up shots with no cloud of smoke to obscure your view.
Rifles - Long range multi-shot. Not much to be said here. Generally Shotguns with slugs are grouped with rifles as a class of modern firearms. In most cases the shotgun restriction is imposed in higher density population areas for safety reasons as a slug will not generally carry for miles like a rifle bullet.
It seems to me like our state has done a pretty good job of classing weapons and balancing maximizing recreational opportunity with maintaining the resource and keeping regulations understandable and enforceable.
Thanks,
jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I think he is trying to make the point that in some states, bowhunting seasons were established before the advent of compound bows. The argument that the intent was to require dedication and skill level can be seen to be violated when compounds were added just as you are arguing that they are violated when crossbows are added.
Thanks,
jack
4wanderingeyes
5 year old buck +
I started off deer hunting back in the early 80's with a recurve bow, then in the early 90's jumped into the compound bows. In my opinion, the introduction of the compound bow is leaps and bounds more of an advantage then the introduction of the crossbow. But in that, I have never hunted with a crossbow, nor do I have the want to. I have had 5 shoulder surgeries on my shoulders, and the Dr told me that he would give me a note to legally shoot with a crossbow (prior to the state opening up the crossbow season), I had no interest. I felt if I am capable to pull the bow back, and hold it, I can still use my compound bow. I worked really hard to get muscles strengthened to use my compound bow, and had to change form a bit, but I am just as accurate, and silent now, as I was before. I cant shoot league anymore, I can only shoot about 20 times, and my shoulders hurt, but I am ok with that.
As for the crossbow, if it offers someone a chance to legally take a deer in season, I am ok with it. Most sportsman a crossbow wouldnt change the outcome of their hunt anyhow. They arent going to take shots with a crossbow, that they werent going to with a compound bow. Sure the crossbow will allow a few more hunters, that either werent capable of pulling back a compound bow, or that didnt have the skill of accuracy with a compound bow, to get in the woods, but for that, I think is more of a selling point, then a negative for them. I dont wont someone inaccurate flinging arrows at deer, and if we can get a few more kids involved, woman, seniors, and handicapped folks, I am all for it. That pretty much just leaves the few that are impulse hunters, that want to try something new, but that will end in a few years.
I think crossbows serve as an excellent tool in the hunting toolbox, but for me, I will stick with my compound bow as long as I am capable to pull it back.
As for the crossbow, if it offers someone a chance to legally take a deer in season, I am ok with it. Most sportsman a crossbow wouldnt change the outcome of their hunt anyhow. They arent going to take shots with a crossbow, that they werent going to with a compound bow. Sure the crossbow will allow a few more hunters, that either werent capable of pulling back a compound bow, or that didnt have the skill of accuracy with a compound bow, to get in the woods, but for that, I think is more of a selling point, then a negative for them. I dont wont someone inaccurate flinging arrows at deer, and if we can get a few more kids involved, woman, seniors, and handicapped folks, I am all for it. That pretty much just leaves the few that are impulse hunters, that want to try something new, but that will end in a few years.
I think crossbows serve as an excellent tool in the hunting toolbox, but for me, I will stick with my compound bow as long as I am capable to pull it back.
Tap
5 year old buck +
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I think that is a great attitude! It is funny how our approaches change as we age. There was a time when the challenge and sense of accomplishment was primary for me. I had even hoped to graduate from training wheels to a recurve. As time when on, things changed. I developed an interest in wildlife management, taking kids out, and the enjoyment of the hunt overtook the sense of accomplishment in hunting. Now, I much more enjoy harvesting a doe, or nothing at all, on my own land that I manage, than shooting a mature buck where I used to hunt. Seeing the smile on a kids face has overtaken antlers. I have kind of transitioned from "what can I take?" through "what can I accomplish?" to "what can I leave behind?". Your attitude of holding high personal standards for yourself wherever you are in your journey while giving grace to others who may be in a different place is laudable!
Thanks,
Jack
4wanderingeyes
5 year old buck +
A little off topic, so I apologize.
I was fortunate in my younger years to have some very good hunting land that I had free range too. I had taken some nice bucks every year from 12 years old, through my late 20's. Once my kids were old enough to hunt, I lost the access to the good hunting land, and my drive then moved to just passing my enjoyment to my kids through success in hunting. Making sure they had a good place to hunt, and have a decent opportunity to get a deer, even if the deer werent booners. This year my youngest son is 20, and he is bringing his long time girlfriend to hunting camp this year. His primary goal, to make sure she gets a deer. He said he doesnt care if he shoots one, he has shot many, it is all about her being successful in filling her tag. It makes me happy to see his lack of selfishness. While she may shoot a small buck, or a small doe, I dont care. It really is about happiness, mine, my kids, and the people that are important to us. She has the green light to pull the trigger on any deer she wants.
I was fortunate in my younger years to have some very good hunting land that I had free range too. I had taken some nice bucks every year from 12 years old, through my late 20's. Once my kids were old enough to hunt, I lost the access to the good hunting land, and my drive then moved to just passing my enjoyment to my kids through success in hunting. Making sure they had a good place to hunt, and have a decent opportunity to get a deer, even if the deer werent booners. This year my youngest son is 20, and he is bringing his long time girlfriend to hunting camp this year. His primary goal, to make sure she gets a deer. He said he doesnt care if he shoots one, he has shot many, it is all about her being successful in filling her tag. It makes me happy to see his lack of selfishness. While she may shoot a small buck, or a small doe, I dont care. It really is about happiness, mine, my kids, and the people that are important to us. She has the green light to pull the trigger on any deer she wants.
I think crossbows open up hunting to more people and for a longer period of time (basing the last part on Indiana's long bow season). I got one at the end of last year and did not see any deer when I was out. This spring/summer I let a lot of people shoot it, from my 9 year old daughter to 70 year old father in law and lots in between. By in large most people were shooting within 1" of the bullseye at 30 yards after 2 practice shots. This is with a Crosman 370 sniper which is really affordable at about $270.
Pretty fun. Pretty easy to use. Pretty accurate. No kick. No noise.
Pretty fun. Pretty easy to use. Pretty accurate. No kick. No noise.
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Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just get so tired of some who make the point that crossbows don't require the same level of 'skill' or commitment that a compound bow does. As one who hunts with both I can assure you there is no argument as far as that is concerned. Where I have the problem is that like it or not crossbows are archery tackle that use fletches, broadheads and arrows. They are not firearms. Whether they require as much skill as a compound(or stick or recurve) is irrelevant. I originally got mine to hunt late season when getting by with movement is much more challenging. Do I have to move as much as I would drawing a compound-no. Do I have to move-yes. Do I need the animal within 40 yards-yes. I don't shoot any more deer in a year using my crossbow than I did when I used a compound only. It's called hunting and not killing for a reason. I personally hunt very little with my firearms anymore as it is just too easy and I like the lack of blood in the meat of an animal that has been shot with a razor sharp broadhead and allowed to bleed out as opposed to killing with the hydrostatic shock of a high velocity bullet. I save those for the coyotes.
All that said, for the past year I have spent more of my time fooling with foodplots and trying to learn as much about them as I can-that's why I am here. To learn from those who have more experience than I may ever have.
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
One word ... fatigue ... a crossbow is a much easier weapon to master because of this factor.
You hold your compound out at full draw and I will put a compound on a rest (tripod, deer blind window, etc.) ... let's see who can hold their weapon in a firing position longer ... this eliminates all sorts of issues that require skill and training for a vertical bow that a crossbow does not require.
If you can shoot a BB gun, you already have the "skill" required to effectively shoot a crossbow.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I think that is one of the most deceiving things about a crossbow. A novice with a proper support can in no time be hitting a bulls eye at 30 yards. Folks then say to themselves, "wonder what I can do at 40 yards". With a compound bow folks quickly learn that it takes a lot of time and effort to shoot accurately where shooting form is largely enforced by the crossbow rail. So, by the time a compound bow hunter can shoot accurately at longer ranges (I encourage practice at long range) they generally know enough about bowhuning to know that just because you can shoot accurately at long range doesn't mean you can take longer ethical shots when hunting. Folks familiar with gun hunting but not bow hunting learn that they can shoot accurately at 50 yards and beyond with a crossbow and often don't understand that that doesn't extend your ethical shooting range under hunting conditions.
The only place where I disagree with your statement above is "No noise". That may be no noise relative to a firearm, but lots of noise compared to the best compound bows. This means string jumping.
Since some who may read this may be gun hunters considering a crossbow and are not familiar with bowhunting, I'll explain string jumping. With a firearm, the bullet generally travels faster than the speed of sound and arrives at the deer before the sound of the firearm. That is not true with a bow. Any energy stored in the limbs that is not transferred directly to the arrow (inefficiency) is manifest in other forms like sound. An arrow coming from the very fastest crossbows is less than half the speed of sound. This means the noise hits the deer well before the arrow. When deer are startled, there involuntary response is to suddenly crouch in preparation to bound away. That drop can be 18"-22" at 20 yards. I have video of this I use for some of my classes. I mark the kill zone in the video before the arrow is released and when it arrives at the deer. The difference is a downward movement of the chest of 18"-22". Enough for the arrow to pass safely over the back of the deer in this case. One would think that you could aim low and be fine but string jumping does not always occur. While aiming at the lower portion of the kill zone is generally a good idea, the kill zone is not large enough to guarantee a lethal hit.
So, when selecting a crossbow, just like a compound bow, silence is more important that speed. Most manufactures advertise speed as a selling point. Back when they first were legalized in VA and we had to teach crossbow safety in our hunter education classes, several manufacturers sent in reps to talk with and demonstrate products to our hunter ed instructors. One of them (which will remain nameless) sounded like a .22 when it was fired. I asked the rep about string jumping and his response was "our crossbows are so fast a deer won't have time to react". A laughable statement but his companies party line.
Mathews lead the revolution in compound bows making the first relatively fast bows that focused on being quiet. I think silencing will be the next revolution in crossbows. Finding ways to increase the power stroke so the stored energy can be applied more efficiently to the arrow resulting in less noise. This also allows the arrow to be longer and improving its downrange stability as well.
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Keep in mind that there is a difference between having the "skill" to shoot a weapon and hunt with it effectively. Think of all the bowhunting skills that are needed. Getting close to game. Positioning for a shot in the presence of game. Reading the demeanor of the deer. Knowing when to release. While you are right that a crossbow is easier to master than a compound bow and a compound bow is easer to master than a recurve, all require a significant amount of skill and woodsmanship to successfully harvest deer.
I wonder if the PETA folks argue whether someone is PETA enough if they only vegetarian and not vegan. I hope so... :)
Thanks,
Jack
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
I've got to say that I never worry about the shot with either in hand. Compound or crossbow doesn't matter in my mind, getting within 30yds of a deer is what I'm worried about. Once that's done either weapon is going to get the job done and one doesn't concern me more than the other. Automatic slam dunk on those shots and I'm not thinking form or anything other than the spot I'm aiming at. Neither is a real challenge to me.
I've been considering going out with my longbow... now that shot concerns me! I would stress over everything about that shot; form, aim, form, breathing, form, release, etc. That weapon is miles behind the other two in my confidence level and ability. I would be really proud of anything I killed with it and would feel challenged to get it done. I imagine and personally know quite a few people who feel that way about a compound vs crossbow. One is easy and the other is something to invest time in, and the divide between those weapons for them is huge.
I've been considering going out with my longbow... now that shot concerns me! I would stress over everything about that shot; form, aim, form, breathing, form, release, etc. That weapon is miles behind the other two in my confidence level and ability. I would be really proud of anything I killed with it and would feel challenged to get it done. I imagine and personally know quite a few people who feel that way about a compound vs crossbow. One is easy and the other is something to invest time in, and the divide between those weapons for them is huge.
