Wild Turkey population is tanking across most of its range

Seriously? If I left my farm up to the government I’d sell it. The government has no clue how many quail, pheasant, deer, coyotes, mice, flys, ticks or anything is on my farm. They can kiss my ass!
we left the country up to the people once when there was a fraction of the population. We lost buffalo, elk in the east, turkey and deer across most the range, wolves, grizzlies, etc.
we have a proven track record of zero self control or principles as a large group.
 
Seriously? If I left my farm up to the government I’d sell it. The government has no clue how many quail, pheasant, deer, coyotes, mice, flys, ticks or anything is on my farm. They can kiss my ass!
I agree the government and its agencies can’t manage game species. However, I understand what Howaboutthemdogs is saying. What the government can do is support landowners and other users to understand best practices based on research and provide training and resources to support those practices. Last I checked, “we the people” are still the ones in charge, and we have a responsibility to steward the land, including game species such as our beloved turkey.

This morning I am attending a field day for quail habitat put on by the Missouri Department of Conservation in partnership will quails forever and the NWTF. The landowner hosting the event has achieved what I hope to accomplish.
 
I am saying all this in general - Most SOUTHERN g&f agencies today - in my opinion - are really only able to manage species that respond to “regulatory management”. In my state - that is primarily deer, bear, elk, and alligators. Those animals can survive - and even flourish in most cases - with nothing more than favorable season dates and bag limits. There is really no requirement, in most places, of habitat manipulation. Deer can live in town - so can gators, and bears live basically where they want. I am not saying better habitat can not improve quality and quantity of these species - but they arent so habitat dependent like quail or turkeys.

Most southern states could be managed into much better deer hunting strictly by regulation - but most g&f agencies have too many other interests to satisfy to concentrate solely on hunters. My next door neighbor cattle rancher owns 1200 acres and does absolutely no deer management. In fact, THE OPPOSITE. he plants fescue, he sprays broadleafs, he turns mature oak timber and bedding ground into open pasture. Yet he maintains about a deer per five acres and there is a 150” deer bow killed every year off his place. He does nothing else but require his hunters to hunt bow only and mount what they kill. One to two bucks are killed a year - no does.

BUT - when it comes to species like quail, turkeys, rabbits - those animals with more specific habitat requirement - g&f agencies are out of the picture in large part. Yes, they can set seasons and bag limits to prevent gobblers from being wiped out, but they have not proven capable of being able to improve populations. With quail and rabbits, I dont even think season dates or bag limits matter - not enough people hunt them to matter - and these are also species who’s population does not respond positively to regulation management - they need habitat and or predator population management. In my home state of AR, our g&f is proving incapable of improving declining waterfowl populations.

By far the bulk of southern state acreage is private land. In most places, Where you have good deer hunting - you would have good deer hunting without g&f. We have decent deer hunting on my place in spite of g&f. My son in law lives in louisiana. I think their modern gun season opens around the first of nov and goes into Jan. I think they can kill three bucks - and a number of does. Nobody on those area leases kills a limit of deer - and everyone could. I know folks who are paying thousands of dollars for a lease and havent killed a deer in years. We have had an 800 acre lease with six members for two seasons and we have not yet killed a deer. Not because we couldnt - but because we chose not to. Yes, there are places where landowners would massacre the deer - but at least in the areas I hunt, that is not the case. Public land a whole other story - but public land makes up a very small percentage of overall acreage.

But small game is a whole other story. To have quail, turkeys, doves, and ducks requires an extreme effort of private land management - in most cases. Most land owners do not have the acreage or money to successfully manage these species. Nobody quail hunts in my area - and there are no quail. Almost nobody turkey hunts and there are very few turkeys. Almost nobody rabbit hunts and there are very few rabbits. Ducks have almost quit coming here. It doesnt matter if seasons were closed - there would be no improvement in numbers. There used to be great hunting for all of these species back when fur prices kept the predators at bay - but those days are gone - and g&f agencies can do nothing about it, because they are regulatory managers - not land managers.
 
Land use is the number one factor in the amount of game species we have. Regulations along with reintroductions brought back species like deer and turkeys from the brink of extinction. Private and public entities need each other.
 
Land use is the number one factor in the amount of game species we have. Regulations along with reintroductions brought back species like deer and turkeys from the brink of extinction. Private and public entities need each other.
Yes, I am not discounting g&f agncies bringing back deer - and turkeys. Deer are easy. G&f has proved across the south they cant improve turkey, quail, or duck populations, because they are regulators, not widespread habitat manipulators.

Do you think if KY closed quail season for five years the quail population would rebound? I dont think so. But I do think like minded private entities with deep pockets who controlled 10,000 acres could do it on their land - if they were so inclined
 
Probably so swamp but what if some rogue hunters took it upon themselves to help them to those quail without any fear of prosecution? The enforcement arm of the government, albeit weak, is the part i think we almost need the most to help game species.
 
Probably so swamp but what if some rogue hunters took it upon themselves to help them to those quail without any fear of prosecution? The enforcement arm of the government, albeit weak, is the part i think we almost need the most to help game species.
There are poachers helping themselves to game with abandon. I am a big supporter of game wardens - in fact, we let one hunt free on our lease. He has killed a couple of deer and no lease members have. In todays online check systems, I think our dnr’s have given a license to poach for those who want to. Most of the deer killed within five miles of my place are killed within a 1/4 mile of the persons back door. There is basically no shooting over the limit - we could legally kill 40 off my 400 acres with the ten folks that hunt here - most only a day or so - but we dont. I know several folks with ten to 40 acres who kill eight or ten off that property - but with a four deer limit - they are easily legal with the number of hunters. If GA did away with deer limits - do you think it would make a difference. AR has about 400,000 deer hunters and the reported harvest averages around 200,000 deer - .5 deer per hunter. That is not because a deer is so hard to find only half the people kill one - it is because people choose not to. Yes, I know there is plenty of illegal hunting - but deer populations still remain fairly high.

USFWS is allowing 3 pintails this year - up from one or none the past few years - based upon their premise that hunters really are not having an effect on the population. I am not sure I agree with that theory - but you can not argue with the fact that one bird pintail limits and low scaup limits have done anything to improve those populations.

I do agree we need some form of regulatory control in most cases. My point being that most g&f agencies are just that - they have not proven that they can improve game populations outside of regulatory effort. Most folks believe turkey populations across the south to be overall declining - but g&f has proven to be incapable of doing anything about it - because turkey populations do not readily respond positively to strictly regulatory management. G&f might be able to protect some turkeys - but they cant grow them - not like private landowners. Same with quail. We, in AR - are seeing our g&f is unable to positively affect waterfowl populations. Or rabbits. Or doves. Or woodcock

But gators are increasing. As are bears. Deer are doing fine. As are elk. These animals can all be managed solely with regulations. If g&f banned all doe hunting for five yours, you couldnt go to the grocery store without hitting a deer. They could ban quail hunting for five years and we wouldnt know the difference.
 
Yes, I am not discounting g&f agncies bringing back deer - and turkeys. Deer are easy. G&f has proved across the south they cant improve turkey, quail, or duck populations, because they are regulators, not widespread habitat manipulators.

Do you think if KY closed quail season for five years the quail population would rebound? I dont think so. But I do think like minded private entities with deep pockets who controlled 10,000 acres could do it on their land - if they were so inclined
Game and fish agencies have undeniably improved populations of game animals due to regulating their harvest and reintroduction, not habitat manipulation.

No, I don't think quail populations would rebound just by closing seasons. It would take that on top of other methods.

But, I also know that if game and fish agencies weren't there to enforce regulations, we wouldn't have nearly the amount of game animals we do now. We complain now about baiting, rifles, crossbows, and lots more. Just think what would happen if none of that was regulated. We wouldn't see deer or turkeys for the most part.

Game and fish agencies can't manage land use or management on private properties, but they can regulate the take. We need that. Land use of private property is where the property owners come into play. If you fill a 1200 acre farm full of strip malls, parking lots, houses, hotels, and gas stations, the number of game animals using it will drastically decrease.

We need both private and public entities working together to have game animals. Take either out of the equation, and game animals are toast.
 
Game and fish agencies have undeniably improved populations of game animals due to regulating their harvest and reintroduction, not habitat manipulation.

No, I don't think quail populations would rebound just by closing seasons. It would take that on top of other methods.

But, I also know that if game and fish agencies weren't there to enforce regulations, we wouldn't have nearly the amount of game animals we do now. We complain now about baiting, rifles, crossbows, and lots more. Just think what would happen if none of that was regulated. We wouldn't see deer or turkeys for the most part.

Game and fish agencies can't manage land use or management on private properties, but they can regulate the take. We need that. Land use of private property is where the property owners come into play. If you fill a 1200 acre farm full of strip malls, parking lots, houses, hotels, and gas stations, the number of game animals using it will drastically decrease.

We need both private and public entities working together to have game animals. Take either out of the equation, and game animals are toast.
I am saying g&f can manage deer, elk, bear, gators, - mainly big game through regulation. These animals will respond positively or negatively to changing regulations. If g&f bans doe harvest - deer will become so numerous they can be a hazard. They can shorten season and fewer deer will be killed

And I will admit - turkeys can be benefitted somewhat by regulation in that those regulations MIGHT prevent them from being killed out - but unlike deer or bears or gators - g&f has not been able recently to regulate them into increased populations like they can deer or bears. No doubt untold turkeys in our state are illegally taken at corn feeders - it is a very rare occurrence for someone to be caught. Quail are same way, as are rabbits, and ducks.

I am just saying there are species that g&f can successfully manage through regulations only. And there are species they can not manage successfully through regulation - that require habitat manipulation - and the landowner has to do that. Yes - a gw can catch a poacher here or there - but it probably does not affect the overall population.

G&f could easily increase the deer population and quality strictly through regulation. They have tried all sorts of regulation recently and not been effective at increasing turkey populations. Same with quail. Same with ducks. They cant regulate a lot of these species into population increases like they do deer and bears.

I have a 62 acre tract of land that backs up to a 27,000 acre NWR where the turkeys used to be so numerous I couldnt hardly grow food plots because the turkeys would eat all the seed 20 years ago. The NWR has very restrictive regs. You cant be on the refuge with a gun - or even just ammo - outside of their limited seasons. The turkey season is two days, quota only, no baiting. The refuge is actively patrolled with their own enforcement staff. There was not a turkey killed this year - because there arent hardly any. They have basically died out over the past ten years even with very restrictive regulations and active enforcement. They do no turkey management.

Likewise, the deer population used to be very good - for decent quantity and good quality. Both quality and quantity started declining about eight years ago - deer harvest regulations were made more restrictive - and the deer hunting is improving. They do no deer management.

There are no quail - although there used to be. There is no quail season anymore.

When I bought my place - we killed three or four bucks and five or six does off 350 acres. There were quite a few days during the season when you wouldnt see a deer. And we killed way less than what the law would allow. We made our own regulations a little over ten years ago. No bucks except for a nice racked mature buck. No does - period. We dropped to shooting a buck or two a year and no does. We did not kill a doe for seven years. Many days we now see 20 deer. We pass multiple bucks. We kill four or five deer a year. We have a good deer population and good quality in spite of g&f regulations. My 1200 acre neighbor who has a ton of deer and they kill a 150” deer every year was told by g&f he needed to reduce his deer density - and especially his does - which he didnt do. He has great hunting in spite of g&f regulations and recommendations.

I am not anti g&f at all. Like I said - we let a gw hunt our lease. I just think they are largely limited in their ability to positively manipulate a lot of game populations that have specific habitat requirements - like quail and turkey - primarily because they dont have the funding and manpower to improve millions of acres of private land.
 
I am saying g&f can manage deer, elk, bear, gators, - mainly big game through regulation. These animals will respond positively or negatively to changing regulations. If g&f bans doe harvest - deer will become so numerous they can be a hazard. They can shorten season and fewer deer will be killed

And I will admit - turkeys can be benefitted somewhat by regulation in that those regulations MIGHT prevent them from being killed out - but unlike deer or bears or gators - g&f has not been able recently to regulate them into increased populations like they can deer or bears. No doubt untold turkeys in our state are illegally taken at corn feeders - it is a very rare occurrence for someone to be caught. Quail are same way, as are rabbits, and ducks.

I am just saying there are species that g&f can successfully manage through regulations only. And there are species they can not manage successfully through regulation - that require habitat manipulation - and the landowner has to do that. Yes - a gw can catch a poacher here or there - but it probably does not affect the overall population.

G&f could easily increase the deer population and quality strictly through regulation. They have tried all sorts of regulation recently and not been effective at increasing turkey populations. Same with quail. Same with ducks. They cant regulate a lot of these species into population increases like they do deer and bears.

I have a 62 acre tract of land that backs up to a 27,000 acre NWR where the turkeys used to be so numerous I couldnt hardly grow food plots because the turkeys would eat all the seed 20 years ago. The NWR has very restrictive regs. You cant be on the refuge with a gun - or even just ammo - outside of their limited seasons. The turkey season is two days, quota only, no baiting. The refuge is actively patrolled with their own enforcement staff. There was not a turkey killed this year - because there arent hardly any. They have basically died out over the past ten years even with very restrictive regulations and active enforcement. They do no turkey management.

Likewise, the deer population used to be very good - for decent quantity and good quality. Both quality and quantity started declining about eight years ago - deer harvest regulations were made more restrictive - and the deer hunting is improving. They do no deer management.

There are no quail - although there used to be. There is no quail season anymore.

When I bought my place - we killed three or four bucks and five or six does off 350 acres. There were quite a few days during the season when you wouldnt see a deer. And we killed way less than what the law would allow. We made our own regulations a little over ten years ago. No bucks except for a nice racked mature buck. No does - period. We dropped to shooting a buck or two a year and no does. We did not kill a doe for seven years. Many days we now see 20 deer. We pass multiple bucks. We kill four or five deer a year. We have a good deer population and good quality in spite of g&f regulations. My 1200 acre neighbor who has a ton of deer and they kill a 150” deer every year was told by g&f he needed to reduce his deer density - and especially his does - which he didnt do. He has great hunting in spite of g&f regulations and recommendations.

I am not anti g&f at all. Like I said - we let a gw hunt our lease. I just think they are largely limited in their ability to positively manipulate a lot of game populations that have specific habitat requirements - like quail and turkey - primarily because they dont have the funding and manpower to improve millions of acres of private land.
I agree mostly, but I don't believe game and fish agencies have the responsibility of manipulating habitat to affect populations nor do i expect them to (except on the limited acreage they have authority to do so). What their responsibility is, is enforcing regulations. Regulations can improve populations of animals. I do believe if there was no season on turkeys, populations would expand. I say that because turkeys are considered more of a habitat generalist. And, turkeys can become pests in areas they don't receive hardly any hunting pressure.
 
I agree mostly, but I don't believe game and fish agencies have the responsibility of manipulating habitat to affect populations nor do i expect them to (except on the limited acreage they have authority to do so). What their responsibility is, is enforcing regulations. Regulations can improve populations of animals. I do believe if there was no season on turkeys, populations would expand. I say that because turkeys are considered more of a habitat generalist. And, turkeys can become pests in areas they don't receive hardly any hunting pressure.
I agree - I dont believe g&f has a responsibility to manage private land - that is what I have been saying - that is the responsibility of the landowner.
 
I agree - I dont believe g&f has a responsibility to manage private land - that is what I have been saying - that is the responsibility of the landowner.
Agree with all your points. They need to incentivize landowners to improve habitat without it taking 2 years to get awarded a contract. If we simply managed habitat for quail,almost all other game species would flourish. If someone is willing to take ag out of production, clear timber, etc they should immediately be approved and given funding. That’s only if we actually care about restoring small game populations.
 
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