Wild Turkey Management on a Deer Property

[bueller]

We have lots of turkeys and one thing if noticed over the years is they are always on the move and they cover a lot of ground. Even when they hit a food source it's only for a brief time as they pass through. IMO the key is providing different food sources for them to encourage them to make stops on your place during their daily routines. We have a fall season here also and once patterned I can almost tell you the 1/2 hour window they will come through my plots or oak stands.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm not sure I buy the oyster shell thing. I haven't seen any data. For deer, there are no studies that show mineral supplements have any positive impact on the health or antler development of free ranging herds. The reason is their highly varied diet. Different kinds of plants have different abilities for mining minerals. There are very few places in the country where soils are so depleted of minerals that, given their highly varied diet, minerals would be a limiting factor on a free ranging deer herd. There are also risks using point source attractants like mineral blocks and licks. Some diseases are more easily spread with the increased face to face contact point source attractants encourage. The best way to apply minerals for deer is to broadcast them on your food plots (N, P, and K along with micros) as call for in your soil tests. While deer do get the minerals through eating the plants you grow in your plots, more importantly, they get the high quality foods they help you grow!

As for turkey, I haven't seen any studies at all. My hunch would be that, since their diet is even more varied than deer, supplemental minerals would not benefit them much either, but that is just my hunch.

I would contend that the biggest factor in turkey populations in my area (zone 7a) is spring weather. Winter kill may be more of a factor further north. In my state, the regulations have limited the largest hen predator in the fall, opportunistic deer hunters. Next to spring weather favoring disease that kills young poults, poult and nest predators would be the next limiting factor. The first thing we can do about that is habitat improvement. By working on the arrangement between nesting cover and brooding cover, we manipulate the vegetation to favor prey over predator. We can control some predators, but not others. Avian predators are often protected. Coyotes are an interesting predator when it comes to turkey. They are clearly a negative for deer, but it is not that clear for turkey. While they do predate nests, poults and even adult hens on occasion, they also predate other turkey predators, especially nest predators. Some studies show that after coyotes establish in an area, it has a slightly positive impact on turkey populations. By reducing skunk, opossum, fox, and other predators, they remove more risk to eggs and young poults than they take.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

We have lots of turkeys and one thing if noticed over the years is they are always on the move and they cover a lot of ground. Even when they hit a food source it's only for a brief time as they pass through. IMO the key is providing different food sources for them to encourage them to make stops on your place during their daily routines. We have a fall season here also and once patterned I can almost tell you the 1/2 hour window they will come through my plots or oak stands.

Diversity is key. We have under 400 acres and constantly have turkey using the property. The only time they seem to vacate is during the fall when there are heavy mast crops. While we do have some riparian buffers with white and red oaks, there are many more oak stands on nearby lands. However, they always return as soon as the acorn abundance subsides.

I think the way turkey feed by "moving through" as you say is one of their forms of protection. I find I get regular pictures of them in my small fields and openings, they just don't stay in any one place long. That doesn't mean they have to range far. We sometimes think of mature pines as a food desert, but not for turkey. I have found their crops full of pine seeds at times, full of wild onions, soybeans, dogwood berries, and just about every kind of plant seed and bug you can think of. They tend to meander around my place moving and feeding as they go.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[H20fwler]

Good for you Jack!
Again I know you know everything about everything. What I know is that mineral blocks help attract deer on my property and the oyster shell does the same thing here with the turkeys getting them in front of the camera and I would think there IS some benefit in it for them also or all the poultry breeders in my area wouldn't be feeding it to their domestic chickens and turkeys. I will believe what the Cooper Farms guy told me a couple years ago to help attract turkeys to the place and what I have personally seen.


Hmmmm.....

https://www.google.com/webhp?safe=a...tive&q=oyster+shell+to+attract+turkeys&spf=68

 

[yoderjac]

Good for you Jack!
Again I know you know everything about everything. What I know is that mineral blocks help attract deer on my property and the oyster shell does the same thing here with the turkeys getting them in front of the camera and I would think there IS some benefit in it for them also or all the poultry breeders in my area wouldn't be feeding it to their domestic chickens and turkeys. I will believe what the Cooper Farms guy told me a couple years ago to help attract turkeys to the place and what I have personally seen.


Hmmmm.....

https://www.google.com/webhp?safe=a...tive&q=oyster+shell+to+attract+turkeys&spf=68

The older I get, the more I realize how little I know. There is no doubt mineral blocks attract deer. That is because most have a significant salt or sugar component. There are plenty of studies to show how they benefit deer just like livestock. They clearly need minerals and when deprived of them can have significant problems. However all the studies that show benefit are in penned operations with captive deer where they can't free range and have a normal diet. Diets of captive deer and livestock are controlled to produce the desired effect and mineral supplementation is an important part of that.

I'm also not saying there is not benefit to turkey. I'm saying my hunch is that the minerals in oyster shell don't improve the health of free ranging wild turkey. Birds need grit that certainly can come from oyster shells as well as minerals. The question is whether the native diet of free ranging wild turkey has a deficiency in those minerals.

As far as attraction goes, I have no idea, and don't at all question your experience in that area. I'm just saying that I'm not sold that there is a health/nutrition benefit to wild turkey. I'm pretty solid in my position on mineral supplements with deer. The industry puts a lot of money into marketing and studies. If they could show benefit to free ranging deer, there is no doubt in my mind that they would be singing it from the hilltops.

As for turkey, I don't have any data. That is why I characterized it as "my hunch". Your opinion on this is just as valid as mine.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Corbin.clay]

I'm not sure I buy the oyster shell thing. I haven't seen any data. For deer, there are no studies that show mineral supplements have any positive impact on the health or antler development of free ranging herds. The reason is their highly varied diet. Different kinds of plants have different abilities for mining minerals. There are very few places in the country where soils are so depleted of minerals that, given their highly varied diet, minerals would be a limiting factor on a free ranging deer herd. There are also risks using point source attractants like mineral blocks and licks. Some diseases are more easily spread with the increased face to face contact point source attractants encourage. The best way to apply minerals for deer is to broadcast them on your food plots (N, P, and K along with micros) as call for in your soil tests. While deer do get the minerals through eating the plants you grow in your plots, more importantly, they get the high quality foods they help you grow!

As for turkey, I haven't seen any studies at all. My hunch would be that, since their diet is even more varied than deer, supplemental minerals would not benefit them much either, but that is just my hunch.

I would contend that the biggest factor in turkey populations in my area (zone 7a) is spring weather. Winter kill may be more of a factor further north. In my state, the regulations have limited the largest hen predator in the fall, opportunistic deer hunters. Next to spring weather favoring disease that kills young poults, poult and nest predators would be the next limiting factor. The first thing we can do about that is habitat improvement. By working on the arrangement between nesting cover and brooding cover, we manipulate the vegetation to favor prey over predator. We can control some predators, but not others. Avian predators are often protected. Coyotes are an interesting predator when it comes to turkey. They are clearly a negative for deer, but it is not that clear for turkey. While they do predate nests, poults and even adult hens on occasion, they also predate other turkey predators, especially nest predators. Some studies show that after coyotes establish in an area, it has a slightly positive impact on turkey populations. By reducing skunk, opossum, fox, and other predators, they remove more risk to eggs and young poults than they take.

Thanks,

Jack

Did not know that about coyotes increasing turkey populations. Makes sense when you think about it though. Either you have skunks, possum fox and all sorts of animals eating eggs or just coyotes. Overall, coyotes help the turkeys

 

[Corbin.clay]

No science to back it up, but I was told to feed oyster shells to chickens as they use the calcium for egg laying. I assumed it would be the same with turkeys as well as it being beneficial to grinding up their food. H2OFowler, have you seen the birds attracted to the oyster shells?

 

[yoderjac]

Did not know that about coyotes increasing turkey populations. Makes sense when you think about it though. Either you have skunks, possum fox and all sorts of animals eating eggs or just coyotes. Overall, coyotes help the turkeys

I'm not sure that is conclusive yet, but there are several early studies of returning coyotes that suggest that is the case. We probably need a bit more research to be sure, but that seems to be where the evidence is pointing. It is at least comforting to know that the evidence is not pointing strongly to coyotes putting a big hurt on turkey populations. This doesn't mean we don't want to control coyote populations, just that it is more important for deer than turkey.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Corbin.clay]

On a tangent: Something I struggle to both understand and apply to my way of thinking is how truly complex the animals that we hunt and fish really are. We like to look at food, water, habitat, and a mate. But there are so many relationships between the organisms we pursue and the other 1000 organisms they share space with.
There is huge debate going on here is Coastal NC on commercial fishing regulations. Majority of people want to say that gill netters and shrimp boats are the cause of all the declining fish stocks. They make no mention of declining water quality, loss of wetlands, drastic loss of seagrass beds, declining oyster and clam stocks, and regulations on other species. To me protecting large red drum work the opposite of our coyote issue. We harvest the 18 to 27 in fish, who eat crustaceans and mollusks, but the big mature red drum that eat other game fish we would like to catch, are off limits. I think it is backwards for fishery management, just as protecting large coyotes from harvest would be backwards. Sorry for the derailment, but i thought the comparison suited.

But that fact that we are talking about the benefits of oyster shells or other minerals to a turkey population shows we are looking in the right direction. Thanks yoder for your view and explaining both what you think and what you've read, and not combining the too.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

If I want to see turkeys, all I have to do is plant my food plots. Then they wont leave for a week!

I too am running small acreage, about 25 acres. I first started out only trying to attract deer, then I thought why not attract turkeys and grouse. But noticed by attracting deer, I was automatically attracting many others. The turkeys would be out eating the seed when I planted in the spring, then eating the bugs out of the plots, then eating the seed from the mature stands of cereal. The turkey and grouse love my brush piles I have, and the deer feel much more secure with the brush piles. But with the good things, come bad things, I am also attracting skunks, coon, coyotes, wolves, and bears. I have a lot of black berry and rasberries along edges of roads, and food plots, and bear love them, birds love them. I havent done much to control the predators yet, other then changing what I plant, to keep the bear out. But they will return once I start producing apples. The wolves come and go with food.

The one thing I am focusing on the next few years to attract are bees. I have been planting crab apples, clover, and I have a lot a natural wild berries. I havent planted buckwheat yet, an may try it next spring. My neighbor said he was getting a bee hive to put next to his apples, so I am sure I can attract a few from him. When I move there I am planning on getting my own hive, but without being there, the bear would just destroy it.

 

[woodduck]

I remember reading something some time ago about mixing oyster shells in with grit for turkeys. If I remember correctly there was a mineral benefit as well as the benefit of the sharper edges aiding in the grinding of foods. True or not, I don't know.

 

[yoderjac]

On a tangent: Something I struggle to both understand and apply to my way of thinking is how truly complex the animals that we hunt and fish really are. We like to look at food, water, habitat, and a mate. But there are so many relationships between the organisms we pursue and the other 1000 organisms they share space with.
There is huge debate going on here is Coastal NC on commercial fishing regulations. Majority of people want to say that gill netters and shrimp boats are the cause of all the declining fish stocks. They make no mention of declining water quality, loss of wetlands, drastic loss of seagrass beds, declining oyster and clam stocks, and regulations on other species.
But that fact that we are talking about the benefits of oyster shells or other minerals to a turkey population shows we are looking in the right direction. Thanks yoder for your view and explaining both what you think and what you've read, and not combining the too.

You are absolutely right, biological systems are complex and their interactions and relationships are even more complex. Most any action we take has unintended consequences. The thing about science is that we never have absolute answers. What we have is a base of evidence based on controlled, repeatable experiments. We draw conclusion from that body of evidence but we need to be open to changing our minds when the data changes. Unfortunately, because of the complexity of these systems, we often have more anecdotal evidence than we have hard data in many cases. This is especially true when commercial interests often drive research and when there is no commercial interest, research is often absent.

Another factor is that commercial marketing often cites research when pushing a product that tempts consumers to draw conclusions that increase their sales. For example, you often here advertisements that say "Studies have shown the main ingredient in our product has been linked to improved...fill in the blank..." Now the study may have been conducted on a particular targeted sub-group using dosages completely different than the product and shown an improvement .03% better than a placebo. We often see this in the deer products industry citing legitimate studies conducted on captive farm animals or deer that have a limited diet tempting QDM manager to believe this will have a similar impact on free ranging deer. The other marketing technique typically used is the testimonial, where QDM manager Ralph swears he has seen a huge increase in antler development since using product X. Of course, they don't mention that before he began using product X, Ralph put in food plots, conducted habitat improvement projects, and most importantly started letting young bucks walk.

Even though I have a fairly firm position on mineral supplements for deer, I realize that my conclusion is fairly solidly based on the evidence available today, but that new studies could change that evidence base in the future. I certainly understand how smart folks of good conscience could evaluate both the hard evidence as well as their anecdotal experience and come to a different conclusion no the cost/risk/benefit analysis than I do. While I'll continue to make a case for my position to help others decide what is best for them, I think it is good that folks with a different view make their case as well.

As for turkey and oyster shells, I'm far less confident in my position. There is no doubt that oyster shells can provide minerals that turkey need. The question in my mind is whether free ranging wild turkey are deficient in those minerals. We often think that if a little is good, more is better which is often not the case. With most minerals, organisms either have a sufficient amount or they are deficient. Increases above the sufficient amount don't benefit them and in extreme cases may harm them.

So I'm always open to new evidence and ideas and I'm glad we are discussing it here. I'd like to here more about the attraction aspect. Do folks who use oyster shells feel it is simply attraction to a specific spot on the property or do they believe it draws birds from a longer distance to the property once they find it?

Thanks,

jack

 

[H20fwler]

No science to back it up, but I was told to feed oyster shells to chickens as they use the calcium for egg laying. I assumed it would be the same with turkeys as well as it being beneficial to grinding up their food. H2OFowler, have you seen the birds attracted to the oyster shells?

Yes
I have been putting it out now for a few years, a 50 pound bag lasts about nine months for me and is around $6. I pour it in a line and the turkeys kick it around and peck up what they want as they go through. They never stay long on the scratch or at feeder five minutes tops but they obviously like something about it and it gets them in front of camera.
If you read up on it at all it is a calcium based grit that should benefit hens producing eggs which could start the chicks off a little better and should help growing and adult birds with bone structure, I would think like us drinking milk.
To me it is just another link in the chain of things I can personally do on my property to help attract turkeys and that is the original topic of this thread. Same reason I put out mineral blocks for deer. I will use any edge or idea I can to try and help and hold wildlife on my farm.

 

[TMIL]

I wonder if it is legal for me to use shells here in IL. We can't put out food, salt blocks, or anything else. We've never been able to bait and hunt over it, and since CWD was found in the northern part of the state, can't put out anything at all, even if you don't hunt over it. I wonder where the shells would fall. I guess I need to look into it. I would like to help the turkeys and maybe get some pics, even though I've never hunted them.

 

[yoderjac]

I wonder if it is legal for me to use shells here in IL. We can't put out food, salt blocks, or anything else. We've never been able to bait and hunt over it, and since CWD was found in the northern part of the state, can't put out anything at all, even if you don't hunt over it. I wonder where the shells would fall. I guess I need to look into it. I would like to help the turkeys and maybe get some pics, even though I've never hunted them.

Sounds like most of the benefit being claimed is the calcium uptake. Take a look at your soil test. If you are low on calcium, apply the right combination of lime and/or gypsum as call for by your test. While a states game department can (and in many cases should given disease risks) outlaw point source attractants like salt blocks or feeders and such, it is pretty hard for them to outlaw standard agricultural practices like applying minerals to your food plots. Plants are mother natures mineral delivery system and work great at it.

If your state won't let you use the oyster shells, they are alternatives for ensuring calcium delivery. Now that I think about it, I believe there are some farmers that do use crushed oyster shells as a soil amendment. You might want to check into that and approach it from that perspective.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[H20fwler]

In Ohio it would be considered bait, hunting it would have to be a certain distance from where someone would be hunting.