Tubes vs cages

[g squared 23]

Deer destroy my tubes which destroys my valuable tree.
Take this to the bank...it's best to plant only 1 tree PROPERLY than to plant 10 trees half-assed. On my property, tubes are half-assed. Deer have proven that to me time and time again. I'll never spend another dime on tubes.

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You convinced me

 

[Tap]

You convinced me

Just my opinion. Some guys here swear by tubes. I see at at em.

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[buckdeer1]

I have had tubes pulled off by deer then they might rub the tree but very few.I use tubes on oaks and cages on fruit trees

 

[Tree Spud]

So I'm looking at this from a cost analysis standpoint. (This assumption is for hardwoods/shrubs and not fruit trees which require bigger cages and aren't really part of the discussion. I'm also assuming you would use the same size weed mat for both, or not use one at all.)

You can get 5' plantra sunflex tubes/stakes/nets for $7/setup from the wildlife group, plus shipping.

You can get 5' combitubes from tree protection supply for 4.25 each plus stakes @ 1.60 each for a total of 5.85 per setup plus shipping. (A guy could probably make his own stakes out of PVC pipe and cut down on the cost of stakes. TPS also sells cheaper 5' economy tubes @ 3.00 each, so you could shave 1.25 off the price if you were trying to be as economical as possible = 4.60/set.).

Right now Menards has a 50'x5' roll of 14 gauge welded wire for $33. This smaller gauge requires a stake, and a 6' T-post they have for 3.24. (Again, many might have access to older posts or rebar for much less or no cost, but I'm trying to compare apples to apples. But this kind of wire does require posting of some kind.) So for me, 50' of wire would make eight 6.25' circumference (2' diameter) cages so 4.12/cage plus tax plus 3.24/stake is 7.36/setup plus tax.

Menards also has 5'x150' 10 gauge reinforcing mesh on sale for $95. That would make 24 cages @ 3.95/2' diameter cage. I'm not sure if 10 gauge mesh is strong enough that it does not need a stake as I haven't worked with it yet. Assuming it does, add 3.24 for a total of 7.19/set plus tax.

So the big question would be if the 10 gauge wire requires staking. If not, this seems like the "best" and most economical answer (although still more time and labor intensive). If it does, it's a $2.59 difference from the cheapest (and likely weakest/least predictable) tree tube option.

This certainly isn't taking into account one's time which is in itself valuable and is often the biggest limiting factor. So much for much larger scale plantings, the time and dollar savings start to become significant and advatages of tubes might start to outweigh their cons.

I'm also not including the price of mesh sheeting for rodent protection which is arguably more important for cagings vs tubing.

Thoughts?

Sounds like you like to over analyze ... start cutting, planting and see what you come up with.

If you can't afford XX, try X .. good luck!

 

[g squared 23]

Sounds like you like to over analyze ... start cutting, planting and see what you come up with.

If you can't afford XX, try X .. good luck!

Overanalyze?!?! Um, you nailed it.

For anything that I'm doing that is new to me, I spend on average 3 hours planning/analyzing for every hour of actual work that I do in the field. My time and resources are limited (overbearing wife, 2 small children, lots of student loan debt), and I hate making mistakes, so I've been trying to use this and other forums to maximize my habitat impact and minimize my time/money input. Not because I hate doing it, but because I get "the business" for spending time away from the kids.

Anyway, thanks for everyone's input, this has been an informative thread.




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[yoderjac]

So I'm looking at this from a cost analysis standpoint. (This assumption is for hardwoods/shrubs and not fruit trees which require bigger cages and aren't really part of the discussion. I'm also assuming you would use the same size weed mat for both, or not use one at all.)

You can get 5' plantra sunflex tubes/stakes/nets for $7/setup from the wildlife group, plus shipping.

You can get 5' combitubes from tree protection supply for 4.25 each plus stakes @ 1.60 each for a total of 5.85 per setup plus shipping. (A guy could probably make his own stakes out of PVC pipe and cut down on the cost of stakes. TPS also sells cheaper 5' economy tubes @ 3.00 each, so you could shave 1.25 off the price if you were trying to be as economical as possible = 4.60/set.).

Right now Menards has a 50'x5' roll of 14 gauge welded wire for $33. This smaller gauge requires a stake, and a 6' T-post they have for 3.24. (Again, many might have access to older posts or rebar for much less or no cost, but I'm trying to compare apples to apples. But this kind of wire does require posting of some kind.) So for me, 50' of wire would make eight 6.25' circumference (2' diameter) cages so 4.12/cage plus tax plus 3.24/stake is 7.36/setup plus tax.

Menards also has 5'x150' 10 gauge reinforcing mesh on sale for $95. That would make 24 cages @ 3.95/2' diameter cage. I'm not sure if 10 gauge mesh is strong enough that it does not need a stake as I haven't worked with it yet. Assuming it does, add 3.24 for a total of 7.19/set plus tax.

So the big question would be if the 10 gauge wire requires staking. If not, this seems like the "best" and most economical answer (although still more time and labor intensive). If it does, it's a $2.59 difference from the cheapest (and likely weakest/least predictable) tree tube option.

This certainly isn't taking into account one's time which is in itself valuable and is often the biggest limiting factor. So much for much larger scale plantings, the time and dollar savings start to become significant and advatages of tubes might start to outweigh their cons.

I'm also not including the price of mesh sheeting for rodent protection which is arguably more important for cagings vs tubing.

Thoughts?

I use the remesh for fruit trees. It needs some kind of stake but only one. It stands on its own but it can be pushed if not staked in one spot. Some guys use rebar to stake it. That is an option as well as a light duty t-post if you are trying to minimize cost.

One thing I'm considering is narrow remesh cages verses my normal 5' diameter. My biggest issue with non-fruit trees is deer browsing the central leader. It does not kill the seedlings in most cases but they become bush like and have no central leader. I'm not sure if trees that are not normally in bush form will still produce well like that. If I can find a way to protect the central leader, I'm not worried about deer browsing lower laterals.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[rocksnstumps]

So I'm looking at this from a cost analysis standpoint. (This assumption is for hardwoods/shrubs and not fruit trees which require bigger cages and aren't really part of the discussion. I'm also assuming you would use the same size weed mat for both, or not use one at all.)

Menards also has 5'x150' 10 gauge reinforcing mesh on sale for $95. That would make 24 cages @ 3.95/2' diameter cage. I'm not sure if 10 gauge mesh is strong enough that it does not need a stake as I haven't worked with it yet. Assuming it does, add 3.24 for a total of 7.19/set plus tax.

So the big question would be if the 10 gauge wire requires staking. If not, this seems like the "best" and most economical answer (although still more time and labor intensive). If it does, it's a $2.59 difference from the cheapest (and likely weakest/least predictable) tree tube option.


Thoughts?

On the remesh which has 6" x 6" holes, I would plan for bigger than 2 ft dia. More like 3-1/2 to 4 ft. Otherwise the little guys and the pencil necked geek deer will nip your leader off. Had some around 3 ft dia on fruit trees and had this happen.

Figure window screen on the lower part of your trees for everything. Remesh, 2" x 4" wire, and yes tubes too.

 

[yoderjac]

On the remesh which has 6" x 6" holes, I would plan for bigger than 2 ft dia. More like 3-1/2 to 4 ft. Otherwise the little guys and the pencil necked geek deer will nip your leader off. Had some around 3 ft dia on fruit trees and had this happen.

Figure window screen on the lower part of your trees for everything. Remesh, 2" x 4" wire, and yes tubes too.

Yes, that is why I use 5' cages on fruit trees. Deer don't seem to seek out my trees like chestnuts, but if they happen by, they will take a bite. It is only a problem if they get the central leader. If I plant trees in a clover field, deer will just take a bite as they walk by. If I plant the same chestnuts amongst other native trees and shrubs, deer rarely hit them.

I'm looking for relatively low cost, low effort ways to protect the central leader in trees planted in these higher risk locations. I don't think it takes much. Deer don't bother these if they are in tubes. I've even used tubes that are only a couple feet tall and placed mesh tubes above them and they don't get hit.

I'm even considering using only these 3' mesh tubes and setting them a foot or two off the ground. They problem with these is that there is no easy way to keep the central leader from growing out one of the side holes. I've even thought of placing an 18" solid tube on a pvc sake that only protect the top 18" of the tree.

The difference between Tap and I is that I'm trying to use trees as part of a permaculture approach to feeding deer. This requires volume. With special, highly attractive trees, I take his approach of do a few right, but with most trees I'm going for high volume. Since I grow mine from seed, after amortizing the setup cost over quite a few years of growing them, I'm willing to take my losses.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[almanac12]

I'm even considering using only these 3' mesh tubes and setting them a foot or two off the ground. They problem with these is that there is no easy way to keep the central leader from growing out one of the side holes. I've even thought of placing an 18" solid tube on a pvc sake that only protect the top 18" of the tree.

The difference between Tap and I is that I'm trying to use trees as part of a permaculture approach to feeding deer. This requires volume. With special, highly attractive trees, I take his approach of do a few right, but with most trees I'm going for high volume. Since I grow mine from seed, after amortizing the setup cost over quite a few years of growing them, I'm willing to take my losses.

Thanks,

Jack

Sounds similar to the Tree Sentry set up.
https://treesentry.com/

I haven't heard of anyone using these. I contacted the owner of the company the first time I planted and he sent me a free sample. I currently have a black (sugar) maple planted in it. Started it this year from a small 13" seedling. So far it looks good, but conditions have been fairly optimal. I haven't done any weed control.

 

[yoderjac]

Sounds similar to the Tree Sentry set up.
https://treesentry.com/

I haven't heard of anyone using these. I contacted the owner of the company the first time I planted and he sent me a free sample. I currently have a black (sugar) maple planted in it. Started it this year from a small 13" seedling. So far it looks good, but conditions have been fairly optimal. I haven't done any weed control.

That is very similar to what I started trying. I used 18" tubes and only fit the mesh a few inches over the top of the tube instead of the while way down to get more height. As for stakes, I want them to bend in the wind as trees need that when young. I first started with small diameter bamboo but that rotted in the ground too quickly. I ended up moving to PVC.

With some trees like apples, I tried the 18" tubes inside cages. I found that to be problematic for apples and removed the tubes. One of the issues I found with the mesh tube setup is that when used on small seedlings, often the central leader will bend and curl enough that it grows through the slide of the tube defeating the purpose.

So, one of the things I'm considering is putting the 18" solid tube inside the mesh so the top of the tree is inside the tube rather than the bottom. This should keep it from growing through the mesh. As the tree grows I'd slide the tub up the mesh.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Tree Spud]

Overanalyze?!?! Um, you nailed it.

For anything that I'm doing that is new to me, I spend on average 3 hours planning/analyzing for every hour of actual work that I do in the field. My time and resources are limited (overbearing wife, 2 small children, lots of student loan debt), and I hate making mistakes, so I've been trying to use this and other forums to maximize my habitat impact and minimize my time/money input. Not because I hate doing it, but because I get "the business" for spending time away from the kids.

Anyway, thanks for everyone's input, this has been an informative thread.

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Good to think things through, but don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Making mistakes is all a part of the habitat experience, it is actually how many of have learned.

 

[yoderjac]

If I'm not making mistakes, I'm not taking enough risk. If I'm making dumb mistakes, I'm taking too much risk.

 

[Tree Spud]

Cutting large holes low in the tube can be beneficial when conditions are wet and shady when mold or fungus is an issue. However, under dry hot conditions, it can create a chimney effect and dry out the seedling. I find tubes benefits/issues to be very site specific. One tube can create great benefits and another 50 yards away can cause more problems. If I could afford caging, I'd do that with everything. Given my browse pressure, tubes are often the only practical protection for me.

Thanks,

Jack

I have cut holes in tubes for oak, aspen, hybrid poplar, maple, and many others ... probably several hundred tubes I have cut holes in.

Have never experienced a problem like you refer to. All of the trees benefited and grew a stronger trunk as the tube lacked the green house effect the tube produced. As the trees swayed in the wind, they built a stronger trunk.

The last thing I would ever tube would be a fruit tree ...

 

[yoderjac]

I have cut holes in tubes for oak, aspen, hybrid poplar, maple, and many others ... probably several hundred tubes I have cut holes in.

Have never experienced a problem like you refer to. All of the trees benefited and grew a stronger trunk as the tube lacked the green house effect the tube produced. As the trees swayed in the wind, they built a stronger trunk.

The last thing I would ever tube would be a fruit tree ...

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Thanks for pointing that out. Tube are best when ventilated. I often buy the cheap solid kind that come in sheets and use a drill to ventilate them. That is no problem. The problem comes in when you cut large holes in the lower part of a tube, especially if it is not ventilated otherwise. What happens is that air in the tube heats in the sun. The chimney effect causes it to rise sucking in air through those bottom holes causing a fairly strong current through the tube leaving at the top. This can dry out a tree. If the entire tube is ventilated you don't get this effect.

You are absolutely correct about trees needing to bend in the wind to develop strong trunks. That is one reason I don't use rigid conduit to stake tubes. I have heard of guys tubing fruit trees, but I don't. The only time I tried using tubes on fruit trees was with apples. These were 5'-6' seedlings I grew from seed. I put them in a 5' remesh cage but I was concerned about rodents chewing the trunk. I decided to try some 18" tubes to protect the lower portion of the trunk. Well, I had an unexpected effect. Because the tube created a greenhouse effect on the lower portion of the trunk, it had favorable environment sooner in the spring and developed a lot of branching in it. I realized this was an issue and pruned them and removed the tubes. I've been watching them and have not had any rodent issues yet. If I see them, I'll use hardware cloth or window screen.

By the way, the "greenhouse" effect is generally a good thing. A green house is properly ventilated and creates a great environment for plants. The old tubes had no ventilation and they were like being in a greenhouse with no ventilation and things often got too hot. Newer tubes are more successful and have a larger diameter and are ventilated than the old tubes. Still, depending on the location, some tubes have worked out well for me and others not so much.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[buckdeer1]

I did a test for the state when I planted my trees 9 years ago.We put around 700 in tubes.I believe.After 2 years the state came back and counted live trees.I was at 74% and now they cost share tubes in some of their programs.I let my tree grow until the trunk just touches the tube and then cut the tube off.I have burs and sawtooth 20 ft tall and producing.In Kansas ventilated tubes are a must but I don't vent lower as there are no holes there so you can spray around tubes

 

[rocksnstumps]

I have cut holes in tubes for oak, aspen, hybrid poplar, maple, and many others ... probably several hundred tubes I have cut holes in.

Have never experienced a problem like you refer to. All of the trees benefited and grew a stronger trunk as the tube lacked the green house effect the tube produced. As the trees swayed in the wind, they built a stronger trunk.

The last thing I would ever tube would be a fruit tree ...

I have had good luck with tubes and crabapples. They all started out as whips and grew quickly. You do have to do maintenance and trim off branches inside the tube as they grow taller. Fruit trees that are feathered only get cages.

The tubed ones do tend to get spindly and have to restake them to allow them to flex as they get above the tubes 3-4 ft. Mice are the biggest problem with tubes even with window screen if they can find a small opening. No holes in btm of tube for me. The mice chew their own hole though. I bought only ventilated tubes

 

[TreeDaddy]

The last thing I would ever tube would be a fruit tree ...[/QUOTE]


Why is that?

bill

 

[Tree Spud]

The last thing I would ever tube would be a fruit tree ...

Why is that?

bill[/QUOTE]

In my experience, they grow too fast and do not develop a strong main leader and the tubes become outstanding cavities for mice during the winter. You also cannot prune any lateral branching or shoots that pop up from the root collar area.

 

[Tree Spud]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Thanks for pointing that out. Tube are best when ventilated. I often buy the cheap solid kind that come in sheets and use a drill to ventilate them. That is no problem. The problem comes in when you cut large holes in the lower part of a tube, especially if it is not ventilated otherwise. What happens is that air in the tube heats in the sun. The chimney effect causes it to rise sucking in air through those bottom holes causing a fairly strong current through the tube leaving at the top. This can dry out a tree. If the entire tube is ventilated you don't get this effect.

You are absolutely correct about trees needing to bend in the wind to develop strong trunks. That is one reason I don't use rigid conduit to stake tubes. I have heard of guys tubing fruit trees, but I don't. The only time I tried using tubes on fruit trees was with apples. These were 5'-6' seedlings I grew from seed. I put them in a 5' remesh cage but I was concerned about rodents chewing the trunk. I decided to try some 18" tubes to protect the lower portion of the trunk. Well, I had an unexpected effect. Because the tube created a greenhouse effect on the lower portion of the trunk, it had favorable environment sooner in the spring and developed a lot of branching in it. I realized this was an issue and pruned them and removed the tubes. I've been watching them and have not had any rodent issues yet. If I see them, I'll use hardware cloth or window screen.

By the way, the "greenhouse" effect is generally a good thing. A green house is properly ventilated and creates a great environment for plants. The old tubes had no ventilation and they were like being in a greenhouse with no ventilation and things often got too hot. Newer tubes are more successful and have a larger diameter and are ventilated than the old tubes. Still, depending on the location, some tubes have worked out well for me and others not so much.

Thanks,

Jack

I have used TreePro vented tubes. Even then, I find I need to add multiple additional 2-3" holes to increase air circulation as the tree grows.

.

 

[NE PA QDM]

I have about 150 apple and pear trees, 50 persimmon and about 200 oaks in 5' Tree pro tubes. I generally favor using them although they certainly have their drawbacks.
For me, the ease of installing coupled with the ability to spray around them makes them preferred to cages.
Yes, I have to take each tube off 1-2 times per year to prune inside the tube, staple window screen, pull weeds and remove dead leaves. But I've only lost 1 fruit tree thus far (since 2012) and that was due to drought and aphids. Many trees do seem to grow quickly and can become spindly but encouraging good lateral growth and an occasional 10' conduit stake seem to solve that problem.
So cages definitely have their benefits and might be "best" overall but vented 5' tree tubes seem to work quite well for me.