Top Tier Gasoline

[Foggy47]

So, last year I traded my 2020 Jeep Rubicon for a new Hyundai Palisade Calligraphy. Super SUV with AWD....and huge amount of technology stuff. We were at the point where we were not physically able to do more off-road travel due to my wife's health....and I have not got the stones of a few years ago either. It was time to do something different, so I worked a good trade on a nice vehicle. No regrets.

As I did some research and read on current issues with recent gas engines.....one thing became clear. Today's engines require good gasoline. No iff's and's or butt's .....the cheap gas does not have ways to lubiricate the valve train and upper cylinders, etc. TOP TIER GAS HAS THE RIGHT STUFF. IIn short stay away from off-brand gas....and the gas offered at many convenience stores. They do not have the additives that the name brands carry. Shell, Mobile, Phillips, Exon, and many of the big sellers like Costco and Kwik Trip sell Top Tier Gas. You can look it up on the web....under "top tier gasoline" and it will tell you who sells it. This is a big deal on new engines with some of the EPA standards that are ruinning engines.....accoring to what I have read.

look at the pump....those that say "Top Tier Gasoline" is what you want to put in your vehicles. Also your should run some additives at every oil change is what I have read. I am going this way.....and I encourage you to read about it.

Any mechanics or knowledgeable others here to chime in on this issue?

 

[Mtyhunter]

I was an ASE master tech long ago for years, service manager at large dealerships for last 25 yrs. I know most everything about fuel and additives.
Top tier fuel goes way back, when fuel injected engines became mainstream. Industry found out that fuel injection caused carbon build up in the upper valvetrain. Top tier fuel was mainly developed for that, has additives that help minimize carbon build up. It also has antioxidant chemicals so the fuel stays more stabil (pun). It really has nothing to do with octane.
Now, you have to trust that retailers advertising top tier fuel actually put the additives in. I'm from Tulsa, where Quik Trip chain originated. They were OG in the Top tier fuel game. Investigation revealed, at that time many years ago, that Quik Trip did indeed put these additives in their fuel, and, most importantly, Quik Trip fuel was delivered to their locations by Quik Trip owned trucks only. They only hauled fuel for Quik Trip. That ensured a quality product. There are issues with trucks hauling different fuels each load, causing contamination issues.
With everything I know, I don't really factor in Top tier fuel in my decisions to purchase fuel. I'm more concerned getting fuel at a place that looks sloppy, with an effed up parking lot, that could have issues with their tanks, and I'd get some bad or wrong fuel.
I'll be happy to answer any questions about fluids, additives, or any other car related issue, just let me know

 

[Native Hunter]

I was an ASE master tech long ago for years, service manager at large dealerships for last 25 yrs. I know most everything about fuel and additives.
Top tier fuel goes way back, when fuel injected engines became mainstream. Industry found out that fuel injection caused carbon build up in the upper valvetrain. Top tier fuel was mainly developed for that, has additives that help minimize carbon build up. It also has antioxidant chemicals so the fuel stays more stabil (pun). It really has nothing to do with octane.
Now, you have to trust that retailers advertising top tier fuel actually put the additives in. I'm from Tulsa, where Quik Trip chain originated. They were OG in the Top tier fuel game. Investigation revealed, at that time many years ago, that Quik Trip did indeed put these additives in their fuel, and, most importantly, Quik Trip fuel was delivered to their locations by Quik Trip owned trucks only. They only hauled fuel for Quik Trip. That ensured a quality product. There are issues with trucks hauling different fuels each load, causing contamination issues.
With everything I know, I don't really factor in Top tier fuel in my decisions to purchase fuel. I'm more concerned getting fuel at a place that looks sloppy, with an effed up parking lot, that could have issues with their tanks, and I'd get some bad or wrong fuel.
I'll be happy to answer any questions about fluids, additives, or any other car related issue, just let me know

Good information. What are your thoughts on adding Star-tron fuel treatment?

 

[Mtyhunter]

I don't know about Star-Tron specifically. I spent quite a bit of time with chemists in an additive lab, so I could understand their testing.
Basically what they say is you have to take oxygen out of the mix to stabilize the fuel. Any other chemicals in the additive don't have an effect on fuel stabilization, they may be for different purposes.
From my experience as a tech in a GM dealer for 17 years, during that time I prob made my mortgage payment replacing pos gm electric fuel pumps. Due to the carbon problem back in the day, there was a ton of fuel treatments coming out on the market. People would put this crap in their tank, the fuel pump would start the whining noise, and soon after, failure. Chemists told me that the reason was peroxide that was being used in the chemical makeup of the additives. The fuel lubricates the pump when its on, and the peroxide was causing a reaction that would eat up the commutator ring on the motor.
There's only 1 additive I'd ever put in my gasoline tank, and it comes from BG. 44k is the trade name for the concentrate, and CF5 is a weaker version. The shit is expensive, but, I've tested this against everything out there, and it was the only one that actually worked. It's noticeable when you use it. We put this and their motor oil additive in every used car we sold, to make them run as good as possible.
I don't think adding anything to the fuel is really necessary, unless it's sitting for maybe more than a month or two between uses. And if there's ethanol in that fuel, I think one can multiply possible fuel issues by 2.

 

[SD51555]

I'm a firm believer in top shelf fluids. That includes oil, coolant, quality of filters, and so on. I've read enough oil analysis tests to see the effects of the cheap stuff.

I had to damn near beat the counter associate at Suburu to get them to put in a new engine air filter and cabin air filter during "canada is on fire and the topsoil is blowing to the Atlantic" season. It was bad this year.

 

[bueller]

I'm a firm believer in top shelf fluids. That includes oil, coolant, quality of filters, and so on. I've read enough oil analysis tests to see the effects of the cheap stuff.

I had to damn near beat the counter associate at Suburu to get them to put in a new engine air filter and cabin air filter during "canada is on fire and the topsoil is blowing to the Atlantic" season. It was bad this year.

Wait, you pay the dealer to change air filters . I fill with the cheapest gasoline I can find from any large chain of stations. Top tier certification/sticker on the pump is all BS marketing that the stations pay for. Do all my own oil and filter changes at regular Intervals. Saves money and I know it's done right. Everything else on a vehicle will to start to fail long before the engine. Unless you have a Hyundai or Kia.

 

[Mtyhunter]

I've tested, in a lab with chemists multiple times, every fluid you could put in an automobile, and every additive for those fluids. It was an eye-opening experience. Every fluid has it's own SAE or gov't standardized tests. And these chemists are anal as hell, measuring everything to the 1000nds of a gram, etc. They don't wear a grey hat on this stuff.
I've tested coolant, straight out of the bottle at walmart, that ate up 10% of the mass of a piece of lead used for testing in a 2 hour span.
I've tested almost every brand of engine oil on the market, specifically with a test called a T-fout test. Basically a test that puts the oil under like 80-90 psi pressure, at a temp of 350 degrees or so, and times how long it takes the oil to coke. Want to take a guess of the worst performing oil I tested, doing this 3 times? Castrol.
I tested multiple additives from a MAJOR additive company in the world (would prefer not to get sued here), and not one time did it make the fluid it was put in better. It made the fluid perform worse everytime. No BS.
I walked away from these experiences wondering how in the hell its legal to sell products that either blatantly don't work, or actually make the fluid worse.
I agree with Bueller. Change your oil religously. Back in the day, if a car rolled over the odometer, a person would call it the best car they ever owned, and they buy another one just like it. Now, people get mad when their water pump fails at 100k miles. I honestly cannot tell you how many miles an engine can go with the proper oil changing, they're making them that good (most manufacturers, lol).

Most people can't answer these 3 questions accurately....Why do I have to change my oil? How often should I change my oil? How does the oil change light on my car know when to turn on?

 

[Foggy47]

Techron fuel system treatment is the one I read was the best.....and to use it every time you do an oil change. I realize folks are skeptical about such things.....and I am too. But I did read enough on this issue to be a believer in the Top Tier fuels and the Techron at each oil change.....and I have stayed at a Holiday Inn.

Actually one of my first jobs was working for a laboratory where we did used engine oil analysis.....and I was the sales and marketing "guru" for this operation. We focussed on contaminates and wear metals.....but I did learn allot in those years. Our lab and Caterpillar were among the first in the nation to do these tests. It was interesting to call a head mechanic and tell him he likely has a hole in the air filter of unit 3425 and he had better check it immediately......or the bearings were going out of some guys aircraft. I hated that job....lol.

 

[hunts_with_stick]

Great info! Thanks!

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Not something that has ever been on my radar. Interesting.

 

[Mortenson]

Last I looked into this stuff, basically thought the webs were low on Stabil and high on Seafoam.

 

[Mtyhunter]

Last I looked into this stuff, basically thought the webs were low on Stabil and high on Seafoam.

I never had the opportunity to test these fuel stabilizers. I do remember the chemists saying all this stuff is basically just anti-oxidant chemicals, but they do help stabilize the fuel long-term.
Personal wise, I have a boat with 2 outboards. Had this boat for 10 years, ran it enough during those years to not worry about fuel, never used a fuel stabilizer once. Starting coaching baseball again, and the boat started sitting. Used Stabil in the fuel that year, and the next year, I was replacing both lift pumps, and 1 high pressure fuel pump. I absolutely blame that red-dyed Stabil, and will suck the fuel out of my tank before I'll ever use that stuff again.

 

[bueller]

My father was a stabil guy. When I found a bottle in the basement with all kinds of sediment crap in it I swore it off. Seafoam in all my infrequently used stuff (ATVs, snowmobiles, chainsaws, snowblowers, etc) and carb issues are far and few between.

 

[Mtyhunter]

No one bit on the oil change why/where question I posed. The info is good to know, I feel compelled to share it

Why does the oil need to be changed?
Generally, one reason only. Fuel contamination. Every chemist I was with says the same thing...all oils made within the last 20 years, even the worst testing ones, could easily go 30k miles and still maintain its necessary specs. It's the fuel contamination that kills the oil lube and coking properties. You can't filter this fuel contamination out.

What mileage should my oil change intervals be?
Really, mileage is a poor measure. I could change my oil right now, start the engine up, and let it run for a month solid. Never moved the vehicle a single foot. Would the oil need to be changed? Of course. That being said, it's really how the engines used. I'm sure most here on this forum owns and pickup and trailer. Using a Ford diesel as an example, it may get 15 mpg without a trailer, but when you load up your big ass tractor and trailer, and hook it up, you're getting 8mpg. You're now going the same miles, but using twice the amount of fuel. Twice the amt of fuel=twice the fuel contamination in the oil. This also applies to fuel filters on diesels. If they have to process twice the fuel while towing alot, then your fuel filter change interval need to coincide. (you better pay attention to this if your diesel is a high-pressure common rail fuel system) I'm sure it's noticeable that you'll also consume much more def when towing with a heavy trailer, same concept.

How does my computer calculate when to turn on the change oil light?
It's been a few years for sure, so maybe there's been some minor changes...The PCM takes a coolant temp reading every time the engine makes one revolution. (600 rpm at idle=10 crank revolutions per second, the computers are actually pretty damn fast) Why is coolant temp a metric? If the engine is cold started (could be 80 ambient temp, or 20 degree ambient temp, doesn't matter) the computer knows that it has to map the fuel tables to be rich to account for the denser air. And since richer fuel influences fuel contamination in the oil, it matters. Here's a real world example...grandma starts her car up every morning, drives 3 miles to church, and volunteers for a few hours. Then she starts her car back up, and goes home. Her change oil light is going to prob come on in less than 2500 miles, since she's always cold starting and running her engine cold. On the opposite end of the spectrum, a person drives their rig 500 miles a day on the highway. Their change oil light may not come on until 10k miles. An engine is operating most efficiently when at operating temp, therefore, less fuel contam in the oil.

Last thing to clarify about oil...synthetic oil doesn't come out of a test tube, it comes out of the ground like all other oil. It was explained to me as synthetic oil is double-refined, which lines up hydromolecular chain of carbon atoms, blah blah blah, which makes it more resistant to coking under extreme heat and pressure. So, you're wasting money on paying extra for synthetic oil for your wifes minivan. If you're using an engine for alot of heavy towing, or a nascar race, you should use synthetic for sure. It doesn't have any different lubricity properties, its all about resistance to coking.
Note that any engine with a turbo will require synthetic oil, as turbo engines cook the oil at a lot higher temps than normally aspirated engines.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I've always changed our vehicles' oil & filters at 3000 miles, despite manufacturers' advice to go 5000 or 7500. All of those vehicles went over 175,000 miles, and a couple over 250,000. Regular gas, no additives. Don't know the fluid additives chemistry - but those vehicles lasted.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

No one bit on the oil change why/where question I posed. The info is good to know, I feel compelled to share it

Why does the oil need to be changed?
Generally, one reason only. Fuel contamination. Every chemist I was with says the same thing...all oils made within the last 20 years, even the worst testing ones, could easily go 30k miles and still maintain its necessary specs. It's the fuel contamination that kills the oil lube and coking properties. You can't filter this fuel contamination out.

What mileage should my oil change intervals be?
Really, mileage is a poor measure. I could change my oil right now, start the engine up, and let it run for a month solid. Never moved the vehicle a single foot. Would the oil need to be changed? Of course. That being said, it's really how the engines used. I'm sure most here on this forum owns and pickup and trailer. Using a Ford diesel as an example, it may get 15 mpg without a trailer, but when you load up your big ass tractor and trailer, and hook it up, you're getting 8mpg. You're now going the same miles, but using twice the amount of fuel. Twice the amt of fuel=twice the fuel contamination in the oil. This also applies to fuel filters on diesels. If they have to process twice the fuel while towing alot, then your fuel filter change interval need to coincide. (you better pay attention to this if your diesel is a high-pressure common rail fuel system) I'm sure it's noticeable that you'll also consume much more def when towing with a heavy trailer, same concept.

How does my computer calculate when to turn on the change oil light?
It's been a few years for sure, so maybe there's been some minor changes...The PCM takes a coolant temp reading every time the engine makes one revolution. (600 rpm at idle=10 crank revolutions per second, the computers are actually pretty damn fast) Why is coolant temp a metric? If the engine is cold started (could be 80 ambient temp, or 20 degree ambient temp, doesn't matter) the computer knows that it has to map the fuel tables to be rich to account for the denser air. And since richer fuel influences fuel contamination in the oil, it matters. Here's a real world example...grandma starts her car up every morning, drives 3 miles to church, and volunteers for a few hours. Then she starts her car back up, and goes home. Her change oil light is going to prob come on in less than 2500 miles, since she's always cold starting and running her engine cold. On the opposite end of the spectrum, a person drives their rig 500 miles a day on the highway. Their change oil light may not come on until 10k miles. An engine is operating most efficiently when at operating temp, therefore, less fuel contam in the oil.

Last thing to clarify about oil...synthetic oil doesn't come out of a test tube, it comes out of the ground like all other oil. It was explained to me as synthetic oil is double-refined, which lines up hydromolecular chain of carbon atoms, blah blah blah, which makes it more resistant to coking under extreme heat and pressure. So, you're wasting money on paying extra for synthetic oil for your wifes minivan. If you're using an engine for alot of heavy towing, or a nascar race, you should use synthetic for sure. It doesn't have any different lubricity properties, its all about resistance to coking.
Note that any engine with a turbo will require synthetic oil, as turbo engines cook the oil at a lot higher temps than normally aspirated engines.

What is your advice on changing fuel filters??

 

[ksJoe]

How does the oil change light on my car know when to turn on?

@Mtyhunter you changed the question and answered one that is quite different:

How does my computer calculate when to turn on the change oil light?

The answer to your original question is: the light knows to turn on when the ECU zaps its brains with around 14vdc. If I was getting electrocuted I'd turn red too!

 

[Mtyhunter]

If you have a gas engine vehicle less than maybe 15-20 yrs old, it doesn't even have a fuel filter. They quit that long ago.
Diesel on the other hand...if the fuel or oil filter gets clogged up, it will bypass. The manufacturers don't want engines to quit while driving, could create a wreck/litigation. Problem with bypassing is, (and why i mentioned high-pressure fuel systems earlier) unfiltered fuel going thru a highpressure fuel system will likely hurt the closely toleranced fuel pump. When it fails, it starts shredding metal, and this metal goes thru the entire fuel system in short order, and ruins it all. When I was with Ford, it'd cost around $8500 to replace a fuel system like this. I heard it cost well over $10k now to do the same job.
You could change your fuel filters today, get a bad load of diesel tomorrow, and your filters could stop up. Normally this doesn't happen, so I'd recommend changing fuel filters every other oil change.

 

[Mtyhunter]

I've always changed our vehicles' oil & filters at 3000 miles, despite manufacturers' advice to go 5000 or 7500. All of those vehicles went over 175,000 miles, and a couple over 250,000. Regular gas, no additives. Don't know the fluid additives chemistry - but those vehicles lasted.

3000 miles used to be the standard when carburetors were used. the inefficiency of carbs contaminated fuel very fast. back in the day, most old timers, when they checked their oil, would smell it. if it smelled like gas, it was time to change the oil.
Fuel injection goes in the combustion chamber like hairspray, very finely metered, unlike carbs that dump raw fuel, so the intervals for fuel injection can be longer without doubt.

But, erring on the side of caution and changing early is best, as evidenced by the long-term usage you've gotten.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

If you have a gas engine vehicle less than maybe 15-20 yrs old, it doesn't even have a fuel filter. They quit that long ago.
Diesel on the other hand...if the fuel or oil filter gets clogged up, it will bypass. The manufacturers don't want engines to quit while driving, could create a wreck/litigation. Problem with bypassing is, (and why i mentioned high-pressure fuel systems earlier) unfiltered fuel going thru a highpressure fuel system will likely hurt the closely toleranced fuel pump. When it fails, it starts shredding metal, and this metal goes thru the entire fuel system in short order, and ruins it all. When I was with Ford, it'd cost around $8500 to replace a fuel system like this. I heard it cost well over $10k now to do the same job.
You could change your fuel filters today, get a bad load of diesel tomorrow, and your filters could stop up. Normally this doesn't happen, so I'd recommend changing fuel filters every other oil change.

I have a 2003 Ford F-150 4x4 that has a fuel filter on it for sure. I've changed it a number of times, and was just wondering what the recommendation would/should be for changing it. 238K + on it - but it's on its last legs!