Strip spraying for forbs?

[Catscratch]

I know that strip discing at different times of year will promote different crops of forbs, while setting back grasses. I also know that fall burns promote forbs while setting back grasses and that spring burns do the opposite. Both great ways to encourage native plants that deer eat (they don't eat the grass).

Here is where I need help. I want to spray herbicide to accomplish the same thing as discing. I figure there are two options; spray gly, kill everything, let the seedbank replenish... or spray clethodim, kill grass, let the forbs that are already growing have the space they need AND let the seedbank replenish.

Gly is cheap and easy to find. Cleth is double the price and something I have to order. I really kind of want to spray cleth so that I don't kill the forbs that are already there.

Anyone have experience with this? Input?

 

[SwampCat]

I have done both and had much better luck spraying gly and killing it all and just letting it start anew. But, if there is an uncommon forb already present that you would like to see prosper - the gly may kill it out and it never come back. In those cases, I would use cleth. Cleth is typically more efficient on younger grasses. Gly seems to work better than cleth on older grasses.

 

[Catscratch]

I have done both and had much better luck spraying gly and killing it all and just letting it start anew. But, if there is an uncommon forb already present that you would like to see prosper - the gly may kill it out and it never come back. In those cases, I would use cleth. Cleth is typically more efficient on younger grasses. Gly seems to work better than cleth on older grasses.

Mature and thick pasture grasses. Now that you mention that cleth doesn't work well on older plants it makes a lot of sense to go with gly. You may have just pushed me over one side of the fence. I will only be doing this in strips so the likelihood of eliminating whole species is not great. There are forbs that I have collected seed from and worked to spread, but I can do that over again if needed (never a comforting idea to kill something you've worked hard to promote though).

Thanks!

 

[j-bird]

If your trying to kill a cool season grass then a properly timed gly application is fine. The trick is being able to get to those plants. What I do...right or wrong...I burn as early as I can. Get all that dead stuff off the ground so those cool season plants can wake up and as soon as they do smack'em with some gly. As long as you are prepared, and you act as soon as you see your target "weeds" showing signs of life you should be fine. The cool season plants tend to wake up before the warm season ones do by a few weeks....at least. I do this to target stilt grass, canada thistle and fescue. Warm season grasses (I fight johnson grass) are a different ball game....I simply try to spot spray them with cleth or gly to minimize damaging my switchgrass.

 

[Catscratch]

If your trying to kill a cool season grass then a properly timed gly application is fine. The trick is being able to get to those plants. What I do...right or wrong...I burn as early as I can. Get all that dead stuff off the ground so those cool season plants can wake up and as soon as they do smack'em with some gly. As long as you are prepared, and you act as soon as you see your target "weeds" showing signs of life you should be fine. The cool season plants tend to wake up before the warm season ones do by a few weeks....at least. I do this to target stilt grass, canada thistle and fescue. Warm season grasses (I fight johnson grass) are a different ball game....I simply try to spot spray them with cleth or gly to minimize damaging my switchgrass.

We had a warm December (50-60's) and I sprayed a lot of cool season grasses. What I need to do is get rid of grass in general and increase the population of native forbs. My biggest fear is making room for sericea lespedeza. I hate that stuff and fear that killing thick grasses will allow it to spread. I guess we'll find out.

 

[Bill]

We had a warm December (50-60's) and I sprayed a lot of cool season grasses. What I need to do is get rid of grass in general and increase the population of native forbs. My biggest fear is making room for sericea lespedeza. I hate that stuff and fear that killing thick grasses will allow it to spread. I guess we'll find out.

It’s a crap shoot. I had an old pasture field with lots of brome and some Indian grass here and there. Sprayed and got a real nice Indian grass field. Hit another field and got lots of foxtail :(.

Depends on what lies below in wait...

 

[trampledbyturtles]

If I tried to pull this off I'd end up with a field of canada thistle.

 

[Native Hunter]

Here are my thoughts:

• If no good perennial forbs are present or actively growing at the time of spraying, then Gly would be my choice. However, if good perennial forbs are growing at the time of Gly spraying, they will be killed. You could still get good perennial forbs from the seedbank once space is opened up, but they will be slow to come back. Hence, in that case, Cleth might be a good choice.
• Annual forbs that haven't germinated yet will take quick advantage (immediately in the first year) of a herbicide kill that opens up space for them. So, for those, it doesn't matter as long as they get the open space. However, Gly kills much faster than Cleth.

Pics below are low (damp) areas where I did nothing but Gly kills of existing vegetation. Everything you see came from the seedbank:

PS: Last year I noticed in one of these places that I was getting a tad more of two strong perennials (Joe Pye Weed and Goldenrod) than I wanted. So, I drove by and did some spot spraying from the pickup truck. I didn't want to kill these species out completely - only set them back a little to open up some space for the annuals that they were beginning to choke out. This year I fully expect to see that happen.

 

[Catscratch]

Nice! Thanks for the replies!

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[Barndog56]

I use cleth over gly for killing my grasses for one main reason, earthworms. I ready a study which showed that earthworms will avoid soil where gly has been sprayed. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep12886

Who knows, perhaps cleth has a similar affect on them?

Spray half your strips with cleth, and half with gly, then we can all find out which works better.....

 

[Catscratch]

I use cleth over gly for killing my grasses for one main reason, earthworms. I ready a study which showed that earthworms will avoid soil where gly has been sprayed. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep12886

Who knows, perhaps cleth has a similar affect on them?

Spray half your strips with cleth, and half with gly, then we can all find out which works better.....

Interesting read. I spray gly once or twice a yr on my Throw-n-Mow plots and have worms galore, but that don't mean I'm not hurting populations or certain species. Certainly something to look at a little closer.

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[IkemanTx]

Here are my thoughts:

• If no good perennial forbs are present or actively growing at the time of spraying, then Gly would be my choice. However, if good perennial forbs are growing at the time of Gly spraying, they will be killed. You could still get good perennial forbs from the seedbank once space is opened up, but they will be slow to come back. Hence, in that case, Cleth might be a good choice.
• Annual forbs that haven't germinated yet will take quick advantage (immediately in the first year) of a herbicide kill that opens up space for them. So, for those, it doesn't matter as long as they get the open space. However, Gly kills much faster than Cleth.

Pics below are low (damp) areas where I did nothing but Gly kills of existing vegetation. Everything you see came from the seedbank:

PS: Last year I noticed in one of these places that I was getting a tad more of two strong perennials (Joe Pye Weed and Goldenrod) than I wanted. So, I drove by and did some spot spraying from the pickup truck. I didn't want to kill these species out completely - only set them back a little to open up some space for the annuals that they were beginning to choke out. This year I fully expect to see that happen.

What time of year did you spray this area?


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[Native Hunter]

What time of year did you spray this area?


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I was wanting to promote jewel weed more than anything else, so I waited until late spring, about 3 weeks before time for the seed to germinate. To thin the goldenrod with spot spraying I waited until fall when it flowered. It was easier to see then and it also gives a better kill at that time.

 

[Catscratch]

I was wanting to promote jewel weed more than anything else, so I waited until late spring, about 3 weeks before time for the seed to germinate. To thin the goldenrod with spot spraying I waited until fall when it flowered. It was easier to see then and it also gives a better kill at that time.

Native, do you have a source that lists germination dates for natives? I've looked quite a bit but haven't found what I'm looking for. I know a database can be put together through years of notes and keeping track, but I would like to forego that process if I can.

 

[Catscratch]

To add, I have a source that lists flowering dates by month. Do you have a way to correlate that to spraying dates?

 

[Peplin Creek]

I would think spraying cleth at green up Would be a good solution. maybe 2 applications a couple weeks apart so you’ll get most of the grass and allow other forbes to flourish. if the end result is sufficient then Gly. Gly seems like an extremely aggressive approach off the bat. As others had said, you might not be happy with what comes back. Whichever way you go. Document it, keep us posted.

 

[Native Hunter]

Native, do you have a source that lists germination dates for natives? I've looked quite a bit but haven't found what I'm looking for. I know a database can be put together through years of notes and keeping track, but I would like to forego that process if I can.

Catscratch, I don't have anything like that. I think the reason it that it's difficult to find is for the same reasons that there is so much conflicting information on fruit drop times. The germination date is dependent on the latitude, the altitude, the moisture and the temperatures - and the last two can significantly vary from year to year.

For instance, I have an troublesome annual (Perilla) that likes to invade my fall plots each year at exactly the time I'm ready to get out and cut down on the human traffic. In 2019, it germinated at least three weeks earlier than it normally does. I can't say why for sure.

PS: I recently found an old book from the 1920's that is supposed to shed some light on all of this and actually has some charts for named varieties of fruit, which shows differences for different areas of the country. I have ordered a copy of that book and will receive it in a couple of weeks. I plan on studying it and starting a thread on it - if I can reach any meaningful conclusions.

 

[Catscratch]

Thanks again for the reply. I think my plan of attack will be to do monthly spraying's and keep notes on what comes up. Try to do them side-by-side so that variables are minimal. If I decide to spend some extra money I'll do side-by-side gly vs cleth. Not sure what I'll do as I might change my mind a few times before green-up... but this is the plan I have at the moment.

 

[willy]

Thanks to all who posted in this thread!

This is a great thread as it covers exactly what I am pondering this spring. Burning and/or disking is not an option. I am going to spray gly in early April or whenever I start seeing the brome and other grasses greening up. Gly works well even when temps are not the warmest. It just takes longer for results to show. Cleth needs higher temps to work well and those generally are in May, by that time my NWSG are waking up and I don't want to kill them out.

They are small scale areas so I will be able to keep an eye on them for species coming in that I don't want. I always have to walk the area for sericia anyways. I have almost eradicated it from these areas so hopefully it doesn't blow up there but I will napalm it with pasture guard, generic if that happens and go from there. I do know there is a good base of partridge pea, indian, bbstem and switch in the seed bank so hopefully some of those are released.

 

[Catscratch]

A nice little article from MO on strip spraying. It doesn't give the type of details we are looking for but it does give a nice baseline for anyone interested.

https://mdc.mo.gov/property/improve-my-property/habitat-practices/applying-herbicides