Starting from square 1 on implements for food plotting

[DavidHunter2001]

I have had a different experience with does. Ten years ago our g&f department was professing the importance of “balancing” the herd by reducing the number of does. We drank the koolaide and went all in. With an annual bag limit of six does, we went from a 1:3 buck to doe ratio to a 1:1 buck to doe ratio in two years. Our statewide average fawn recruitment numbers is .5 fawns per adult doe. With a 1:1 buck to doe ratio - a .5 fawn recruitment number - a 1:1 buck to doe ratio does not leave enough does to produce enough fawns to replace all mortality. Our deer herd crashed. In our case, with our neighbor’s help - it was easy and quick to kill the does down. It took six long years of not shooting a single doe - not even letting the grand kids shoot them - before we got back to a deer population where we feel like we can now kill one or two does on 350 acres. In our case, it was quick and easy to get rid of them - but a long struggle to get them back.

I would suggest you do some pre hunt camera surveys and see just how many does and fawns you have.

Interesting. I am in south Ohio and we run 20 Cuddelink cameras all year long. We have been taking 4-6 does a year off the property for several years and the population just keeps increasing. The camera survey (especially in late winter/ early spring on the food plots) does give you a good feel for the herd quantity and health. We typically see does with two fawns and watch them all year. We typically do not have harsh winters and we do hit the coyotes hard so maybe that is part of the difference. Every location is different and hunting pressure on surrounding properties could also be a factor. I am in an area with very little hunting pressure. Most of my neighbors do not hunt.

 

[SwampCat]

Interesting. I am in south Ohio and we run 20 Cuddelink cameras all year long. We have been taking 4-6 does a year off the property for several years and the population just keeps increasing. The camera survey (especially in late winter/ early spring on the food plots) does give you a good feel for the herd quantity and health. We typically see does with two fawns and watch them all year. We typically do not have harsh winters and we do hit the coyotes hard so maybe that is part of the difference. Every location is different and hunting pressure on surrounding properties could also be a factor. I am in an area with very little hunting pressure. Most of my neighbors do not hunt.

I think it is primarily related to fawn predation. Our adult does average 1.7 fetuses apiece, yet my fawn recruitment numbers this past september were .3 fawns per doe. Something is happening to all those fawns after birth. Our primary fawn predators are coyotes and bobcats. I wouldnt say our coyote numbers are crazy high, but we have a lot of bobcats - and I feel they are a much more effective fawn predator than coyotes. I get coyote pictures a lot along field edges and open areas. The cats are working the wooly thickets. I trap a fair bit also. And we are prone to flooding - especially during fawning season. I have done some post season surveys, but I really question the validity of the data since I am the only one in the area with food plots and deer density can really increase on my food plots in late winter - leading to deer density that is not indicative of the rest of the year. You are correct - different areas across the country vary a great deal. - I have properties eight miles apart in the same river bottoms that manage nothing alike.

 

[rocksnstumps]

If you are surrounded by forest with little AG in the area I would not be surprised to see your plots have lots of deer on them. Especially if you have something they really like in the plots. Be prepared to take a lot of does to keep the numbers down. If not they can wipe out your plots pretty fast. If you think about each doe having 2 fawns the numbers can go up pretty quickly on a property if you are drawing them in and keeping them on your property. 1 doe becomes 3 deer the following year and then, if two of those three are does 2 become 6 the next year... Its a lot easier to keep it under control at the start than trying to take does after it is out of control.

The OP has posted that he is in Ashland county. I think if he does a camera survey and sees more deer than wolves, he will count that as a win. Harsh winters and predators make it a different management philosophy from other areas of the country. The DNR has stopped doe tags cause numbers are low.

From a group that promotes the management of wolfs so some bias sure but probably not too far off:
In the 2019 Wisconsin example, gray wolves (also known as timber wolves) were responsible for 31% of all deer killed by either human hunters or timber wolves in Wisconsin’s entire North Woods, which encompasses several million acres across 17 counties. In 2019 alone, an estimated 48,851 deer were killed — 33,571 by gun-hunters and 15,280 by wolf predation in the following counties: Iron, Ashland, Douglas, Forest, Vilas, Sawyer, Price, Bayfield, Lincoln, Florence, Oneida, Langlade, Burnett, Rusk, Taylor, Washburn, Marinette and Oconto. The data was released this week by the group called Wisconsin Wolf Facts.

From WI DNR earlier in 2020

DNR warns dog owners about Ashland and Sawyer County wolf packs​

Unusually high incidents of dogs being killed

Wolves in Ashland County have killed seven bear-hunting dogs this month, and hunters and dog trainers are being warned to stay away. Kate Houlihan has the story.

 

[swat1018]

Interesting. I am in south Ohio and we run 20 Cuddelink cameras all year long. We have been taking 4-6 does a year off the property for several years and the population just keeps increasing. The camera survey (especially in late winter/ early spring on the food plots) does give you a good feel for the herd quantity and health. We typically see does with two fawns and watch them all year. We typically do not have harsh winters and we do hit the coyotes hard so maybe that is part of the difference. Every location is different and hunting pressure on surrounding properties could also be a factor. I am in an area with very little hunting pressure. Most of my neighbors do not hunt.

Winter surveys on food plots can be misleading. Depending on the neighborhood make-up for food, those does can come from a long way.

 

[SwampCat]

Winter surveys on food plots can be misleading. Depending on the neighborhood make-up for food, those does can come from a long way.

I have had late January surveys double up on my September surveys as far as total numbers. It can also be more difficult to determine last spring fawns from 1.5 yr old deer. In addition, some of our bucks are already losing antlers by late January, which also tends to skew data.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm running a wireless camera network 24/7/365. I don't find absolute number very revealing. We extract a survey from the DB twice a year from the same cameras at the same locations year after year. We extract a survival survey from Jan-Apr and a recruitment survey in the month of Sep. The Sep survey gives us a pretty good idea of the current cohort. Looking at year to year trends seems to provide the most insight. There is some small year to year bias as mast crops and such change from year to year, but the trending data is pretty good.

 

[SwampCat]

I'm running a wireless camera network 24/7/365. I don't find absolute number very revealing. We extract a survey from the DB twice a year from the same cameras at the same locations year after year. We extract a survival survey from Jan-Apr and a recruitment survey in the month of Sep. The Sep survey gives us a pretty good idea of the current cohort. Looking at year to year trends seems to provide the most insight. There is some small year to year bias as mast crops and such change from year to year, but the trending data is pretty good.

There is no row crop or food plotting in my area. Baiting is legal, but most hunters turn off the feeders at the end of season around the first of the year. We had little to no mast crop this fall - and deer numbers in January were almost double September and 60% higher than a year ago. That is really typical for a wide variation in winter deer numbers. The data is so erratic, I could not use it to make any management decisions. Just one more example of how deer management varies so much across the country.

 

[yoderjac]

There is no row crop or food plotting in my area. Baiting is legal, but most hunters turn off the feeders at the end of season around the first of the year. We had little to no mast crop this fall - and deer numbers in January were almost double September and 60% higher than a year ago. That is really typical for a wide variation in winter deer numbers. The data is so erratic, I could not use it to make any management decisions. Just one more example of how deer management varies so much across the country.

That was my point. Trending, comparing the same period across multiple years, normalizes many (but not all) factors.

 

[Maddog66]

Rocksnstumps knows the deal. I had about 10 cameras on my land from August thru Jan last year. On every check, 2 or 3 of them literally had more wolf than deer pics.

Please don’t think I’m complaining either.....I knew the deal going in and I accept it 1000%. We have predators and winters that most people cant fathom IMO. If deer hunting alone is what made me happy, there are certainly better places. BUT, from a lifetime of hunting up there, I also know it produces bucks that will take your breath away....and big woods experiences you don’t get in too many places.

Plus I can’t afford 300 acres in Buffalo county anyway.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Were many wolves killed in your neighborhood during the recent wolf hunt? I own land in Rusk County and the local beef farmers seem to keep the wolf numbers in check, but I hope a bunch of wolves were killed in our area last month. The bears are a totally different story though and they tend to wipe out most of the fawn crop in my specific area. WI changed the bear zones this year and we can draw tags in 2-3 years now versus 8-9 in the past, so we can finally thin out those predators at least.

Regarding the food plot options, I think you would be in good shape with a sprayer and an ATV pull behind or mounted spreader for seed and fertilizer spreading. Clover and brassicas would be a good combination that would draw in a lot of deer. Soybeans would be great, but they would require more equipment as I'm sure you know. I think having a solid timber management plan will give you more consistent hunting than anything else though. With that much acreage you could cut the timber in 10 acre blocks and cut 20+ acres per year. Having a mix of ages will ensure that your property always has what the deer are looking for. Have some aspen clear cuts and some older hardwoods for mast crops if you have any oaks.

Northern WI can grow some awesome bucks, but the low deer density makes it tough to pump out very many older bucks. The combo of predators and tough winters knock the numbers down and they don't bounce back quickly. I've spent a little more time managing for small game and waterfowl up there since holding out for old bucks isn't very realistic most years. We had a beaver build a dam on my land and I learned that I really enjoy duck hunting. Do you have any ponds or creeks on your land?

 

[PoorSand]

I tried to help reduce the Wisconsin wolf population last week. I just ran out of time. I hunted a fringe area and was amazed at the number of fresh wolf tracks I cut. The application period for the fall season is now open.

 

[Maddog66]

I gave a guy permission to hunt my land for the wolf hunt. He hunts only at night with all the high end night vision optics and lights. He called and my pack answered him immediately. He said they came toward toward him but never gave him a clear look to shoot.

I know one group of dog runners about 10 miles west of me got 6 in the first 2 days! My nephews run hounds and they got 2 in 2 days. I also know many of the locals in my area have been TCB for years. They’re fed up beyond belief.

 

[Maddog66]

Ben, I have a tractor so I’m trying to move up from the atv gig after doing that for years. Timber management is definitely going to be part of the plan......but that’s gotta wait until I get some professional advice this summer from forestry.

Yes, I do have a beaver pond that was full of woodies last September. Problem is, the buggers are flooding some of my good bedding cover......so they aren’t long for this world.

 

[Chainsaw]

First, Maddog66, glad you are posting and congratulations on your land purchase. If done correctly three hundred acres is enough to keep deer on a property in this area enough to grow them to the 4 1/2 to 6 1/2 years old bracket. A handful of landowners here are doing just that. There is baiting done by two neighbors but it is not legal. Where baiting is legal holding deer enough to get age on them could be different than here, am not experienced in that scenario.

Our farmer plants with a no-till planter. It is the ideal way to get the job done for us. He plants thirty acres for his crops and ten acres for my crops. He works with me so that what he plants on the thirty acres is good enough for the deer and good for the soil and good enough for him. That is the best most expedient way to get the fields planted. The second best way is to own a no-till and plant the fields yourself. Of course a good barn is a must to store the no-till. I would be reluctant to have equipment that valuable sitting in a barn three hours away; Some natives might take advantage of that here.

As to small equipment, a drag harrow (Tractor Supply sells a nice one), a fertilizer spreader, a sprayer and an electric seed spreader (3 to 400 dollar type are fine) can get the job done nicely, not so quickly but nicely. If your soil is extra rough a disc may be needed. With that setup you can plant about anything including corn. We planted corn here for years using out fertilizer spreader. At least one person has success using the spreader by planting up to 40,000 seeds an acre but we found the opposite and had our best crops at 20,000 seeds per acre.

I have no experience with the in-between options like the Woods or Firminator equipment mentioned.

Being a property that enjoys tough winters, natural browse will be deciding factor on how your deer fare. Food plots will help get them to the bad part of winter before they need to live off of your browse completely. A great overlooked winter food for both it's browse and fruit are apples. The RIGHT apple trees can feed deer thru the entire winter. Most apple trees can not as most drop their apples long before winter. Those trees though that have the genes to hold and drop their crop throughout the winter could add greatly to any property. I don't mean one or two but rather a couple of acres or more of them.

Lastly Poplars and white cedars if you have them are two trees to be cherished and used wisely. They both of course can add greatly to getting deer thru tough winters. Good luck with your property and am looking forward to following your threads and learning from the new things you figure out.

 

[yoderjac]

First, Maddog66, glad you are posting and congratulations on your land purchase. If done correctly three hundred acres is enough to keep deer on a property in this area enough to grow them to the 4 1/2 to 6 1/2 years old bracket. A handful of landowners here are doing just that. There is baiting done by two neighbors but it is not legal. Where baiting is legal holding deer enough to get age on them could be different than here, am not experienced in that scenario.

Our farmer plants with a no-till planter. It is the ideal way to get the job done for us. He plants thirty acres for his crops and ten acres for my crops. He works with me so that what he plants on the thirty acres is good enough for the deer and good for the soil and good enough for him. That is the best most expedient way to get the fields planted. The second best way is to own a no-till and plant the fields yourself. Of course a good barn is a must to store the no-till. I would be reluctant to have equipment that valuable sitting in a barn three hours away; Some natives might take advantage of that here.

As to small equipment, a drag harrow (Tractor Supply sells a nice one), a fertilizer spreader, a sprayer and an electric seed spreader (3 to 400 dollar type are fine) can get the job done nicely, not so quickly but nicely. If your soil is extra rough a disc may be needed. With that setup you can plant about anything including corn. We planted corn here for years using out fertilizer spreader. At least one person has success using the spreader by planting up to 40,000 seeds an acre but we found the opposite and had our best crops at 20,000 seeds per acre.

I have no experience with the in-between options like the Woods or Firminator equipment mentioned.

Being a property that enjoys tough winters, natural browse will be deciding factor on how your deer fare. Food plots will help get them to the bad part of winter before they need to live off of your browse completely. A great overlooked winter food for both it's browse and fruit are apples. The RIGHT apple trees can feed deer thru the entire winter. Most apple trees can not as most drop their apples long before winter. Those trees though that have the genes to hold and drop their crop throughout the winter could add greatly to any property. I don't mean one or two but rather a couple of acres or more of them.

Lastly Poplars and white cedars if you have them are two trees to be cherished and used wisely. They both of course can add greatly to getting deer thru tough winters. Good luck with your property and am looking forward to following your threads and learning from the new things you figure out.

Have you seen any of the GPS deer range studies? There are some deer in great habitat that can stay on 300 acres, but most deer in most situations won't. With properties this size we can improve hunting and can increase the amount of time that deer will spend on our properties, but short of high fencing, we won't keep deer on our property. Buck ranges are generally greater and expand during the rut. Studies are now showing "excursions" are not uncommon ranging many miles. Will some bucks make it to older ages classes? Of course, that happens even on heavily hunted public land. With a few hundred acres, the average age class for bucks is very highly dependent on neighboring properties and attitudes.

Habitat improvements can encourage deer to spend more time on our land reducing, to some degree, young bucks being shot on neighboring lands. I don't think a few hundred acres alone is sufficient to have a statistically significant impact on age class. Having said that, with the right state and local regulations, and with neighbors with the right attitudes, a few hundred acres can contribute to a broader scale effort.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Chainsaw]

Jack I completely agree with your statement that most deer won't stay on 300 acres and yes I am very familiar with how some deer travel huge distances. And looking back at my post I stated "that done correctly it is possible to grow deer to 4 1/2 years old to 6 1/2 years old". I should have said "to grow some of the deer to 4 1/2 to 6 1/2 years old". I didn't intend it to mean to easily grow all of the deer to that age but it does read that way. On paper it is obviously impossible to grow almost any deer to that age but we are experiencing having older age deer here to hunt just the same. We do have 600 acres but it lays out as two 300 acre parcels as it is two miles long by 1/2 mile deep separated by Ag fields in the center. The older deer to the east of center seldom get their picture taken on the west side of center and vice versa. We have some good neighbors and we have some horrific line sitting, road hunting neighbors. Deer are shot from cars, out of house windows and some even after dark over bait piles. On an average visit to the local butcher's barn one might see twenty yearling bucks, a couple of button bucks and one or two 2 1/2 year old deer. Most people in the area shoot any buck they see. Still we are consistently able to get some deer to the ages 4 1/2 and up class in each of the 300 acre areas. I know it is seemingly impossible but it is happening here and on some other properties in this county.

Three of the key factors to seeing it happen are the number of acres of high quality food and sanctuary cover, the number of hunters and the # of hunter days per 300 acres, 2oo acres, or whatever the property size and which days they hunt combined with their hunting styles. If we had two hunters and we hunted as we did for the first fifty years of our hunting careers we would not be seeing mature age deer here today. Further if we had four hunters on either of the three hundred acres who followed the law and took their two bucks a year, then we would likely never see deer over 2 1/2 years old (if that even) even on the better of the two 300 acre areas. Heck even if the four hunters each shot one buck per year we might never get a buck over the 3 1/2 threshold.

I'm not saying older deer are running all over the place here and they are not. However there are at least some each year in the older age brackett to make hunting very exciting.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack I completely agree with your statement that most deer won't stay on 300 acres and yes I am very familiar with how some deer travel huge distances. And looking back at my post I stated "that done correctly it is possible to grow deer to 4 1/2 years old to 6 1/2 years old". I should have said "to grow some of the deer to 4 1/2 to 6 1/2 years old". I didn't intend it to mean to easily grow all of the deer to that age but it does read that way. On paper it is obviously impossible to grow almost any deer to that age but we are experiencing having older age deer here to hunt just the same. We do have 600 acres but it lays out as two 300 acre parcels as it is two miles long by 1/2 mile deep separated by Ag fields in the center. The older deer to the east of center seldom get their picture taken on the west side of center and vice versa. We have some good neighbors and we have some horrific line sitting, road hunting neighbors. Deer are shot from cars, out of house windows and some even after dark over bait piles. On an average visit to the local butcher's barn one might see twenty yearling bucks, a couple of button bucks and one or two 2 1/2 year old deer. Most people in the area shoot any buck they see. Still we are consistently able to get some deer to the ages 4 1/2 and up class in each of the 300 acre areas. I know it is seemingly impossible but it is happening here and on some other properties in this county.

Three of the key factors to seeing it happen are the number of acres of high quality food and sanctuary cover, the number of hunters and the # of hunter days per 300 acres, 2oo acres, or whatever the property size and which days they hunt combined with their hunting styles. If we had two hunters and we hunted as we did for the first fifty years of our hunting careers we would not be seeing mature age deer here today. Further if we had four hunters on either of the three hundred acres who followed the law and took their two bucks a year, then we would likely never see deer over 2 1/2 years old (if that even) even on the better of the two 300 acre areas. Heck even if the four hunters each shot one buck per year we might never get a buck over the 3 1/2 threshold.

I'm not saying older deer are running all over the place here and they are not. However there are at least some each year in the older age brackett to make hunting very exciting.

Yes, you and I are on the same page. I'm just trying to keep expectations for new readers realistic. A few hundred acres is plenty, if done right, to address the nutrition leg of the stool. We own about 400 acres, and with witting and unwitting neighbors, we are in the 700-800 acre zone. I've been at it for 10 years. We have used timber management and control burns to significantly improve native foods along with an intensive food plot program. We maintain about 20 acres of food plots. I'm far enough south of you that summer is a slightly more intense stress period than winter. We've been at it for about 10 years. Based on our camera data, I'm not sure we have any more mature deer using the farm than when we started. We have significantly more 2 1/2 year old deer and probably more 3 1/2 year old deer.

Why? Most of a deer's diet is native foods, not food plots. Food plots can be a great help in evening out the stress periods but they don't supplant native foods. Native foods are limited by the underlying fertility of your soil. You can improve fertility on food plots, but it is not practical to improve fertility across a deer's entire home rang. So, a good food plot program to address nutrition to the level it can be addressed in your particular area. Even before we started, we had a few older age class bucks. No one every saw one except maybe a glimpse during the rut, but we got nighttime pics. That has not changed. The reason they are mature is that they go nocturnal during hunting season. For us, it comes down to hunting pressure, both on our property, which we can control, and on other properties, which we can't.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

I believe, with only a few hundred acres to work with, the key on my ground is to attract as many deer to my place, as opposed to just trying to grow them. The deer density in my area is about 20 deer per square mile. Last year on my 350 acres, Sept camera survey, I had about sixty deer - 120 deer per square mile. Now, I fully understand almost all, if not all of them, are venturing off my property. But the point being, I am drawing a lot of deer to my property that would otherwise not be there if it wasnt for my food plots. I feel, the more deer I draw to my property, the more likely some of them will be quality bucks.

 

[yoderjac]

I believe, with only a few hundred acres to work with, the key on my ground is to attract as many deer to my place, as opposed to just trying to grow them. The deer density in my area is about 20 deer per square mile. Last year on my 350 acres, Sept camera survey, I had about sixty deer - 120 deer per square mile. Now, I fully understand almost all, if not all of them, are venturing off my property. But the point being, I am drawing a lot of deer to my property that would otherwise not be there if it wasnt for my food plots. I feel, the more deer I draw to my property, the more likely some of them will be quality bucks.

Regardless of deer density, I think for those who want to shoot mature deer, you are barking up the right tree. To be more specific, I think drawing mature deer to your property specifically during hunting season is the key. The most important part of that is security. If mature deer eat on food plots on one parcel every night and bed in the thicket on the adjoining parcel every day, I want to own them both. If I can't, I want the thicket. Folks with a few hundred acres can create both on their land in most cases.

Having said that, not everyone has the same goals or or blend of goals. Making a smaller property a better hunting location is a very achievable goal for most folks.

 

[Chainsaw]

I believe, with only a few hundred acres to work with, the key on my ground is to attract as many deer to my place, as opposed to just trying to grow them. The deer density in my area is about 20 deer per square mile. Last year on my 350 acres, Sept camera survey, I had about sixty deer - 120 deer per square mile. Now, I fully understand almost all, if not all of them, are venturing off my property. But the point being, I am drawing a lot of deer to my property that would otherwise not be there if it wasnt for my food plots. I feel, the more deer I draw to my property, the more likely some of them will be quality bucks.

By drawing the deer to your property you may in fact be "growing" them by keeping them out of harms way during hunting season not counting of course the ones you take.