Site selection input.....

[Livesintrees]

So this is certainly a loaded question (I think). Didn’t have enough time this year to get an area picked and prepped for a smallish section of trees. The plan is an in general mix. Not sure if rootstock and variety as of yet (that question will come soon enough). I’d like the get apple (crab apple as well) and pear planted. Possibly some others as well. I’d imagine somewhere around 20 total trees. This would be strictly for hunting purposes. We have a bear problem here so fencing and such to keep em out will be the main struggle.

As far as site selection goes, what type of area would be most preferred? I have low lying wet areas, hillsides, ridgetops etc etc. property varies in terrain and slope. Soil makeup also varies. Most of the property has a fair bit of loam, clay and just a touch of sand in it. Where should I begin looking to locate this mini orchard. And how much cleared Area would be suggested for my needs. I claim full ignorance on planting and maintaining mast trees as I’ve not yet he the opportunity to do so.

 

[sandbur]

So this is certainly a loaded question (I think). Didn’t have enough time this year to get an area picked and prepped for a smallish section of trees. The plan is an in general mix. Not sure if rootstock and variety as of yet (that question will come soon enough). I’d like the get apple (crab apple as well) and pear planted. Possibly some others as well. I’d imagine somewhere around 20 total trees. This would be strictly for hunting purposes. We have a bear problem here so fencing and such to keep em out will be the main struggle.

As far as site selection goes, what type of area would be most preferred? I have low lying wet areas, hillsides, ridgetops etc etc. property varies in terrain and slope. Soil makeup also varies. Most of the property has a fair bit of loam, clay and just a touch of sand in it. Where should I begin looking to locate this mini orchard. And how much cleared Area would be suggested for my needs. I claim full ignorance on planting and maintaining mast trees as I’ve not yet he the opportunity to do so.

Which area of the country.


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[Livesintrees]

Which area of the country.


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New Jersey specifically Sussex County.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Depends some on the lay of your land and where you plan to hang stands or put blinds. If that is not a big factor then I would go on a south facing slope that has good soil.

 

[cavey]

Ditto above the south facing slope, well drained good soil with good sunlight (open area) as a general rule, higher ground less susceptible to pockets of frost ... apple trees are not fond of wet ground... really the place you want to draw the deer too is the best place ( this regardless of almost anything else - some sites are just better for ideal growing conditions ... but an apple tree near your stand on a north slope is still better than one planted 300 yards away from your stand on a better growing location) and pick disease resistant trees with the drop times you want to meet your hunting and or feeding goals - dont forget about late dropping apples too, those that drop in winter/early spring... apple tree orchards and good clovers/chicory make wonderful food plots not just apple plots... then good fencing and protect the trunks ... think of the location as part of the big picture of deer movement and holding patterns on your property - even beyond the hunting season. Buying the trees is the cheapest and easiest part of the whole deal...

 

[Livesintrees]

Well right now basically this is where I am after purchasing this passed winter. Next year I want to further cut more in the same areas after is done settling down. Current cuts are 90% survival and sprouting like crazy. Maintain the current plot trail. Then open up an area for some fruit trees. Will most likely add chestnuts as well as they do well in the area.

Green is the plot trail
Red is hinge cut bedding
Blue is the little pond
White are all existing trails which I cleaned up to allow access

 

[Bowsnbucks]

If this was my place, and looking at ideal location from a healthy sun/wind flow/ non-frost pocket spot, I'd expand an area between your northern-most "740 ft." circle and the green plot strip. From the 9 o'clock position on the gray clock face icon, I'd go straight south to the green strip, and extend the opening from the green strip north toward that "740 ft." circle.

You'd have good sun, good air flow ( keeps diseases less likely ), and it's on higher ground and not in a low frost pocket. Deer could then travel from the northern hinged bedding area around that "740" high spot and come right to your fruit trees and then on into the plot strip. If that travel area is thick, I'd cut a "walkway" for the deer from bedding to the fruit tree opening. Place stand on upper side of that trail you cut. Prevailing wind should probably be from west to east, so access from white trail which is down-wind of the red bedding area and the stand.

That's not the ONLY place you could plant fruit trees, but that's where I'd put them. Higher, south-facing slopes are optimal.

 

[Livesintrees]

The deer naturally were barring in those red areas (walked it a million times in the snow) and they heavily travel from the red areas in between the 3 “740” knobs terrain gets stee between ge two red areas so they don’t travel there much which allows my winds to blow into a no mans land. The property is 90% mature woods with beech oak and maple understory developing slowly. Not to much “thick” other then the bedding I have been creating or should I say enhancing. To the east there is a low lying area that is THICK swampy real estate. All kinds of stuff down there. However there is no evidence of them Bedding there. Only traveling. I had originally though of being roughly where you described. I also considered going just beyond the northernmost “740” knob. Thoughts were to increase the distance they travel from apples to plot trail possibly drawing past two stand locations I have marked. The bedding is just over the ridge and access to an area between all 3 knobs where they travel is excellent. It’s 75ish yards across from knob to knob. Excellent funnel and bow range

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Lives - The reason I'd extend right out of the food strip with an opening is because the food strip is open to the south and will let lots of sunlight get to the fruit trees. That was my thought for continuing the opening directly out of the strip and going north.

You can certainly put them where you'd like - I was just giving my thought on where I'd plant them. I 100% agree with deer travel between those 3 knobs. Natural funnels between those high spots. I've hunted similar spots here with good success. I think you're gonna have a good set-up in there.

 

[Apple Junkie]

I can see you’ve got some good suggestions for locations, so I’ll add my two cents on apples varieties and rootstocks to consider. I’d start a couple of each; Arkansas Black, Enterprise, and Liberty apples, along with Virginia (Hewes), and Wickson crabapples. The regular apples all ripen later and hold all the way through hunting season. Although they ripen late, they are dropping earlier to draw the deer in, but they won’t be gone before late season. The Virginia and Wickson crabapples are great pollinators and bear heavy. Don’t just look at these, any apple is a good apple!!

Between bears and browse lines, I would suggest you buy whatever varienty you choose on either a full size (Antanovka or P.18) or semi-standard (MM.111 or B.118) rootstock. Full size rootstocks take a bit longer to produce but are longer lived. All are productive, well rooted, and widely adapted to most soils. (I have a mix)

One last tip, don’t dilly-dally when it comes to ordering your trees. The best choices are available now, even though they won’t ship (or bill) until you want them (fall ’18 or spring’19). Good luck… keep us all posted on your progress.

 

[Livesintrees]

I can see you’ve got some good suggestions for locations, so I’ll add my two cents on apples varieties and rootstocks to consider. I’d start a couple of each; Arkansas Black, Enterprise, and Liberty apples, along with Virginia (Hewes), and Wickson crabapples. The regular apples all ripen later and hold all the way through hunting season. Although they ripen late, they are dropping earlier to draw the deer in, but they won’t be gone before late season. The Virginia and Wickson crabapples are great pollinators and bear heavy. Don’t just look at these, any apple is a good apple!!

Between bears and brose lines, I would suggest you buy whatever varienty you choose on either a full size (Antanovka or P.18) or semi-standard (MM.111 or B.118) rootstock. Full size rootstocks take a bit longer to produce but are longer lived. All are productive, well rooted, and widely adapted to most soils. (I have a mix)

One last tip, don’t dilly-dally when it comes to ordering your trees. The best choices are available now, even though they won’t ship (or bill) until they ship when you want them (fall ’19 or spring’19). Good luck… keep us all posted on your progress.

I appreciate your input. Can you elaborate more on the varieties that you suggested, as well as the thoughts and meanings behind the rootstocks? Also any other thoughts on additional varieties would be much appreciated. And fall vs spring planting, what are the ups/downs to each? I’d like a large variety of possible that will last as long as possible during season (sept-late Jan)I know it’s a lot of questions but again I claim ignorance to fruit trees and would like to be prepared and ready with a plan. And lastly where are you as well as everyone else ordering your trees from.

Thanks in advance!

 

[chickenlittle]

For 20 trees spaced about 20 to 30ft apart, I'd go with the rootstocks suggested above. These produce large, hardy apple trees that will work best in a low care hunting orchard. MM111 is most widely available for purchasing grafted trees on. Good availability of apple trees on B118 (Bud 118). Harder to find trees on P18 or Polish 18 (mostly Cummins Nursery) or on Antonovka (St. Lawrence Nursery, some local/regional growers). Antonovka is grown from seed (old Russian apple) while the others are cloned using stoolbeds. For heavy soils, MM111 is a good choice but it is slower to produce than B118. With some nurseries and big box or garden centers, the rootstock may not be listed other than Standard/full size or semi-standard/semi-dwarf. The semi-dwarf might include some trees smaller than you really want.

I would suggest you consider Cumminsnursery.com. Wide selection of varieties and rootstocks. Choose some "disease resistant" apple varieties and some crabapples. Mix for cross-pollination and drop times. Not the cheapest but usually ship good quality trees. They have a $3-4 price breaks per tree at 25 and 50 trees, mix and match. For my first order from them, I found a buddy at work that wanted trees. I added his 25 trees to my order which dropped my total cost by the price of 2 or 3 trees.

 

[sandbur]

Twenty trees are a lot of work to plant at once, and you will spend about as much on cages, window screen, and perhaps on soil amendments as the cost of the trees. Consider time and money when placing your tree order.

It is better to do five trees correctly each year than to do a poor job on twenty trees.

I have been working since spring to prepare for planting 7-10 trees in cleared ground and I still have a ways to go before next spring planting.


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[Bowsnbucks]

Posts # 10, 12, and 13 above are all good advice. As Sandbur said - if you can't put the proper time, money, material into the trees you plant, it may be wasted effort. Plan for concrete mesh cages about 4 ft. in dia. (deer), aluminum window screen stapled loosely around the trunk (mice/voles), and some kind of landscape fabric to keep weeds down so the new trees get more nutrients - not the weeds.

Good "regular" apples that are DR types ( disease resistant ) are Liberty, Enterprise, Goldrush, Galarina and Sundance. There are several more, but these are very good ones. Time tested. Less spraying needed - if any - for disease with these varieties. We still have to spray for bugs. No bug proof trees !!
Good crab apples are - Dolgo, Trailman, Kerr, Chestnut crab, (all available at several nurseries), and Winter Wildlife & All-Winter-Hangover crab apples (available only at St. Lawrence Nursery - Potsdam, N.Y.). Crab apples, beside the fruit they produce, are great pollinators for "regular" apple trees.

The rootstocks are a 3-fold part of the choices you make. (1.) They govern the size that the tree will eventually grow to, (2.) they give measures of disease resistance to various diseases, and (3.) certain rootstocks adapt better to soil conditions than other rootstocks would in that same soil. ( See post #12 above ). At my camp we have a heavier, clayish-loam type soil. We have MM-111, B-118, and Antonovka rootstocks on our 70+ trees, and all are growing well. These rootstocks will all grow trees that will be from 16 ft. to over 30 ft. tall at maturity. I bought our trees from Cummins Nursery, St. Lawrence Nursery (SLN), - both in N.Y. - and Adams County Nursery (ACN) in Pa. If you want big trees, P-18, Antonovka, B-118 and MM-111 are the rootstocks to grow the biggest trees.

I chose DR types of trees and those 3 rootstocks for them to be grafted on because at hunting camp, they won't be babied & fussed over all the time. Plus we have bears, so I wanted to have rootstocks that will grow big, woody trees that hopefully will be able to withstand some bear damage and still survive. But we have to protect them from bears until they reach a certain size !!

You'll have to assess what your needs are, and pick trees / rootstocks based on those needs.

I've only planted in the spring, but other guys have planted in the fall with good success. I usually plant in April as the frost leaves the ground.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Just a starting primer ……….. If I was going to start a new orchard, this is what I'd plant. ( If I didn't have a lot of time and $$$ to do a 1-time planting. )

Year 1 - I'd plant, screen & cage 1 each of these trees:
Liberty, Enterprise, Goldrush, Galarina, Sundance. ( regular apples )
Dolgo, Chestnut crab, Winter Wildlife, Kerr, & All-Winter-Hangover. ( crab apples )

Year 2 - I'd plant, screen & cage:
Liberty, Enterprise, Goldrush, Galarina, & Wolf River ( regular apples )
Chestnut crab, Winter Wildlife, Kerr, All-Winter-Hangover, & Trailman. ( crab apples )

This would give me 2 of some great DR trees and also add 1 Wolf River & 1 Trailman. I'd have earlier (Sept.) to later varieties to go into the winter.
There are lots of other good choices like Arkansas Black, Priscilla, Prairie Spy, Dayton, Winecrisp, Crimson Topaz, etc. I just listed the big names - if you will - that are the backbone of most wildlife orchards. Most of us on here have these in our orchards.

Post #10 above - As Apple Junkie said, order now if you can to secure some varieties you want for this fall or next spring. You don't have to pay now at Cummins, but at least you can reserve your trees. Cummins doesn't have every good DR tree on the rootstocks listed above, but they do have some. I have 3 trees reserved for next spring already. Pay in Jan. or Feb. 2019. SLN and ACN catalogs come out usually no earlier than December or January, so be on the look-out !! Get on their mailing lists. I would NOT buy trees from a big-box store !!! Some guys on this forum have and lived to regret it. You have no idea what rootstock you're getting, and they aren't handled as carefully as the nurseries do.

I learned much of this stuff from guys on here and the links & contacts they provided. They haven't steered me wrong and I'm grateful to them for getting me on a good path !! I just try to pass on what I've learned.

Hope all of us can help in some way.

 

[sandbur]

Just a starting primer ……….. If I was going to start a new orchard, this is what I'd plant. ( If I didn't have a lot of time and $$$ to do a 1-time planting. )

Year 1 - I'd plant, screen & cage 1 each of these trees:
Liberty, Enterprise, Goldrush, Galarina, Sundance. ( regular apples )
Dolgo, Chestnut crab, Winter Wildlife, Kerr, & All-Winter-Hangover. ( crab apples )

Year 2 - I'd plant, screen & cage:
Liberty, Enterprise, Goldrush, Galarina, & Wolf River ( regular apples )
Chestnut crab, Winter Wildlife, Kerr, All-Winter-Hangover, & Trailman. ( crab apples )

This would give me 2 of some great DR trees and also add 1 Wolf River & 1 Trailman. I'd have earlier (Sept.) to later varieties to go into the winter.
There are lots of other good choices like Arkansas Black, Priscilla, Prairie Spy, Dayton, Winecrisp, Crimson Topaz, etc. I just listed the big names - if you will - that are the backbone of most wildlife orchards. Most of us on here have these in our orchards.

Post #10 above - As Apple Junkie said, order now if you can to secure some varieties you want for this fall or next spring. You don't have to pay now at Cummins, but at least you can reserve your trees. Cummins doesn't have every good DR tree on the rootstocks listed above, but they do have some. I have 3 trees reserved for next spring already. Pay in Jan. or Feb. 2019. SLN and ACN catalogs come out usually no earlier than December or January, so be on the look-out !! Get on their mailing lists. I would NOT buy trees from a big-box store !!! Some guys on this forum have and lived to regret it. You have no idea what rootstock you're getting, and they aren't handled as carefully as the nurseries do.

I learned much of this stuff from guys on here and the links & contacts they provided. They haven't steered me wrong and I'm grateful to them for getting me on a good path !! I just try to pass on what I've learned.

Hope all of us can help in some way.

For those living in more northern climates, I would suggest the same crab apple choices.

For larger apples I would lean towards Haralson, Norland, Red Baron, and then look at some of the Canadian Prairie apples.

The crabs might be all you really need in the north country.


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[Livesintrees]

I appreciate all the input! So perhaps the real way for me to take this on then is plan for a fall planting of next year if need be to get the soil right. Again my largest concern is the bear but I will do whatever need be to eliminate the issue. As far as the work portion goes, I’m not overly concerned about it. My father is a contractor so we have access to mini excavators and skid steers. I’ll need to buy trees and material to protect the trunk (I’m sure I’ll ask for a more detailed analysis on the proper procedure when the time comes) the wire mesh and such is something that he always ends up with partial rolls after a job. In essence free for us to use. Digging for the trees is not a concern. The real work will be with the chainsaw to prep the area. This mini orchard is the first habitat project I will start this winter when season ends.

 

[Livesintrees]

Again I’m glad I found this site when the other went down. It has some of the most helpful members of any site I’ve come across. And none of the nonsense bickering either. So again thank you to all who have replied, and if you would like to elaborate on soil ph and proper methods to either tube or protect the trees, or ANYTHING else in relation to doing this the right way it is all very much so appreciated! This is a new endeavor for me and I am all ears.

 

[j-bird]

Where you can and where you should and where you will are all different things. Because you are already creating the bedding to food flow for the deer to assist your hunting, you obviously have to take that into account. Last thing you want to do if put the deer somewhere you don't want them. On the other side the ideal site will be fairly level, with decent soil and elevated with a good sun exposure. Air circulation is important and avoiding low areas where cold air will settle will help with better fruiting. So - the best physical location may not jive with the best locations for hunting. I have found that with plots as well. Many times we put them where it's easy for us to do so and NOT necessarily where it's best for the deer or for hunting (particularly stand access). As for other things about what to plant. You have generally 3 sizes (dwarf, semi-dwarf, and standard). The smaller the tree the sooner it matures and will produce fruit. However, the smaller the tree, the easier it is for deer and bear to damage the tree as well. Dwarf trees may get only 8 feet tall or so, but that means lower branches and more difficulty protecting from browsing and rubbing and the like. I like semi-dwarf trees. Mine get 15 feet tall or so, I can use 5 feet tall cages to prevent browsing and rubbing and the trees will fruit in roughly 5 years or so. I can also work the tree with just a extendable pole-saw as well. Standard trees can get pretty big and will require much more room in the long run. I here pears are easy and I like crabs because they tend to be more disease resistant in general and require less work. You have to watch crabs however as they are determined by the fruit size they produce and many varieties only produce small fruit that only interests the birds and small critters. Some however will produce fruit of an inch or larger in size and those are the ones you want for deer. There are also some varieties of apples that are pretty disease resistant as well, but you have to do your homework. Last thing you want is to put a few years into a tree just to find out it suffers from a disease pretty regularly. Rootstock determines the tree size and the Scion (the top part) determines the variety. I train my trees (semi dwarf) to where the lowest branch is 5 feet off the ground this reduces the browsing and allows me to mow under them and the like as well. As for planting I use a weed fabric (so water passes) to control weeds and put gravel on it to hold it in place (I avoid mulch as I have had voles get into mulch and kill the tree by chewing off roots). I use metal window screen or hardware cloth to protect the truck from critters like rabbits. The height of it is determined by your snow pack. You want it higher than your normal snow height otherwise the snow is like a ladder for those critter to get above that protective measure. I also is a 5 feet tall by 2 to 3 feet in diameter cage as well. I use a "T" post or two and wire into place. Don't forget to tag your tree with variety and planting date.....you will want to know later for some reason and you will NOT remember. Someone like Turkey Creek is a great resource for trees as far as rootstocks and tree varieties....... I have been very happy thus far with the trees I have gotten from him.

This is one I did before I put the gravel down.