Seeding Brassica into existing clover

[WTNUT]

It is my unicorn. I love not plot more than a freshly planted mixture of clover and Brassicas. The problem is I am not very good at getting the Brassicas to establish when I seed into an established plot. I have probably had the most success lightly discing and broadcasting. Mowing tight and seeding, applying Gly and broadcasting or not till drilling have not worked well but all three may have failed in part due to errors on my part.

The problem seems to be that I have very lush thick clover stands that always seem to overcome the Brassicas before they get big enough to to compete.

Have asked before, will ask again, what has worked for you?


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[yoderjac]

This plot was an older ladino clover plot. I was experimenting with methods. 1/2 the field was sprayed with 1 qt/ac of gly. THe other was mowed flat with a bushhog. When I say flat, I mean almost scalping. I then drilled Radish with a small no-till drill. I did this in early fall with rain in the forecast. The radish was able to germinate and start growing before the clover filled back in from the root system.

I've done this many times since then and it has always worked well for me. You have to top kill the clover. If not, the brassica doesn't germinate well. I don't know if this works well with taller clovers or not, but it worked well with ladino and Durana.

I have heard guys saying they have done this without a no-till drill by surface broadcasting and cultipacking. I have not tried that personally, but if the clover is suppressed sufficiently and you get timely rain, I can't see why it won't work.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Radish will grow a bit faster than say ptt so if what you are planting is having trouble competing maybe try planting radishs (if you havent already)

 

[Wild Thing]

This plot was an older ladino clover plot. I was experimenting with methods. 1/2 the field was sprayed with 1 qt/ac of gly. THe other was mowed flat with a bushhog. When I say flat, I mean almost scalping. I then drilled Radish with a small no-till drill. I did this in early fall with rain in the forecast. The radish was able to germinate and start growing before the clover filled back in from the root system.

Looks good Jack - Which strategy was most effective? 1 quart Gly/Acre or mowing low?
Also - what rate did you drill the radish seed at?

Thanks

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I plant radish and turnips into my clover plot every other year. While my clover plots aren’t a solid stand of clover, I have decent luck mowing it back to a few inches, then lightly disking to get a little dirt showing, I then spread the seeds and roll it. It won’t make any magazine covers, but the deer don’t read magazines anyhow.

 

[yoderjac]

Looks good Jack - Which strategy was most effective? 1 quart Gly/Acre or mowing low?
Also - what rate did you drill the radish seed at?

Thanks

You can see the whole field looks about the same. "Most effective" depends on your objective. For example, if the established clover field is near the end of life and I don't have time to rotate it in my schedule, the gly method adds a couple more years to the clover as the invading grasses are killed. If the clover field is not near end of life, mowing flat is less expensive and minimizes herbicide use. The difference in results between the two approaches may depend on your location and specific weeds.

I can't recall what rate I drill the radish at. It was done with my little Kasco 4' no-till drill. I just did random strips through the clover.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[jsasker007]

I just set the disc as straight forward as it will go and lower the disc enough to cut rows into existing clover and last weekend I broadcast oats,turnips,radish and chicory into what was mostly clover and chicory plots. Then last night we got a great soaking rain for about 6 hours. Couldn't have asked for better conditions weather wise.

 

[WTNUT]

This plot was an older ladino clover plot. I was experimenting with methods. 1/2 the field was sprayed with 1 qt/ac of gly. THe other was mowed flat with a bushhog. When I say flat, I mean almost scalping. I then drilled Radish with a small no-till drill. I did this in early fall with rain in the forecast. The radish was able to germinate and start growing before the clover filled back in from the root system.

I've done this many times since then and it has always worked well for me. You have to top kill the clover. If not, the brassica doesn't germinate well. I don't know if this works well with taller clovers or not, but it worked well with ladino and Durana.

I have heard guys saying they have done this without a no-till drill by surface broadcasting and cultipacking. I have not tried that personally, but if the clover is suppressed sufficiently and you get timely rain, I can't see why it won't work.

Thanks,

Jack

Does one method seem to work better for you than the other?


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[yoderjac]

Does one method seem to work better for you than the other?


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It depends on what I'm trying to do. If it is an old weedy clover field and I don't have time to rotate, the gly method kills the grasses so I get a bit more life out of the clover field before I need to rotate. The mow it flat method doesn't impact the grasses but minimizes the use of gly. If grasses are not a big issue in the field yet, I'll use the mow-flat method.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[WTNUT]

Yea, sorry I typed before I read.

My clover fields are a couple years old and pretty lush. They were planted in the fall of 2020 with brassicas mixed with clover. There were no brassicas last year.

I would think the gly burn down would give you more “down time” for the brassicas to get established, than if you just mowed it tight. My biggest concern is using a quart of gly per acre. I might try 24 ounces. I am sure the clover would recover from a quart per acre, but when you have lush clover now I would prefer to go on the cautious side.

Did you apply any nitrogen or other fertilizer when you planted?


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[yoderjac]

Yea, sorry I typed before I read.

My clover fields are a couple years old and pretty lush. They were planted in the fall of 2020 with brassicas mixed with clover. There were no brassicas last year.

I would think the gly burn down would give you more “down time” for the brassicas to get established, than if you just mowed it tight. My biggest concern is using a quart of gly per acre. I might try 24 ounces. I am sure the clover would recover from a quart per acre, but when you have lush clover now I would prefer to go on the cautious side.

Did you apply any nitrogen or other fertilizer when you planted?


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Nope. I don't use any commercial fertilizer now that I've gone to no-till/min-till. Legumes and nutrient cycling are all my plants get.

 

[WTNUT]

Nope. I don't use any commercial fertilizer now that I've gone to no-till/min-till. Legumes and nutrient cycling are all my plants get.

Okay, now you are just showing off - LOL. I can’t even get them to grow with fertilizer and you are doing it without. I am going to try 8.5 acres in the next two or three weeks and see what happens.


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[yoderjac]

Okay, now you are just showing off - LOL. I can’t even get them to grow with fertilizer and you are doing it without. I am going to try 8.5 acres in the next two or three weeks and see what happens.


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Keep in mind the amount of radish plants you see compared to the amount of clover. The clover is still my primary deer food. The radish adds some variety and attraction. You probably can't use seeding rates like you would if you were farming brassica as a monoculture. By balancing n-fixing plants with n-seeking plants is important. If we don't damage it with tillage, a particular soil has the ability to support a certain density of a mixture of plants and animals with nutrient cycling. Farmers need monocultures for harvest and thus don't have the flexibility we do with plant mixing. They require yield on a per acre basis to be profitable. We don't. We can generally use more area with less intensity and stay within the ability of the soil to support plants and animals.

It has taken me years to find the right balance for my land. Don't get frustrated. You'll find it.

 

[Tree Spud]

It is my unicorn. I love not plot more than a freshly planted mixture of clover and Brassicas. The problem is I am not very good at getting the Brassicas to establish when I seed into an established plot. I have probably had the most success lightly discing and broadcasting. Mowing tight and seeding, applying Gly and broadcasting or not till drilling have not worked well but all three may have failed in part due to errors on my part.

The problem seems to be that I have very lush thick clover stands that always seem to overcome the Brassicas before they get big enough to to compete.

Have asked before, will ask again, what has worked for you?


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The brassica is most likely being shaded out by the clover so you need to get it more exposed to the sun. You can either spray with gly, may kill the clover or at least set it back, or shallow disk the clover.

You can then seed your brassica and throw in more clover seed.

 

[WTNUT]

Yea, there is no doubt that in the past my clover has “jumped back” too quickly and shaded out the brassicas. I think this year I will just spray gly and then no-till drill the brassicas in right before I spray. I don’t think this will kill the clover, but am hoping it does set it back long enough to allow the brassicas to get started.

In the past, I may have only mowed or sprayed 2-4d and Cleth. I have never tried Gly. I was always worried about killing a good clover plot.

When you sprayed gly at 1 quart and acre how long until your clover jumped back?


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[yoderjac]

I like to do it with rain in the forecast. This does two things. First, it helps the brassica germinate more quickly and second, the gly should topkill the clover allowing the barassica to come up through dead clover. There is less chance of a complete kill of the clover when it gets rain after the top kill. You need enough time for the gly to be rainfast, but rain after that is very helpful.

 

[WTNUT]

I like to do it with rain in the forecast. This does two things. First, it helps the brassica germinate more quickly and second, the gly should topkill the clover allowing the barassica to come up through dead clover. There is less chance of a complete kill of the clover when it gets rain after the top kill. You need enough time for the gly to be rainfast, but rain after that is very helpful.

Thanks. What do you think about applying gly and seeding the same day or a day apart. My thought process is that it takes a while for the gly to start to kill back the clover and a while for the brassicas to germinate. In theory, if the clover dies down quick enough it gives the brassicas the maximum amount of time to get going before the clover starts back.


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[yoderjac]

Thanks. What do you think about applying gly and seeding the same day or a day apart. My thought process is that it takes a while for the gly to start to kill back the clover and a while for the brassicas to germinate. In theory, if the clover dies down quick enough it gives the brassicas the maximum amount of time to get going before the clover starts back.


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I typically spray and plant the same day or the next day depending on how much I'm doing. However, it may depend on the kind of clover you are growing. Keep in mind that I've been doing this with low growing clovers. If you are growing taller clovers, you may want to try both mowing (not flat) and spraying so light gets to the seed faster.

 

[Tree Spud]

Yea, there is no doubt that in the past my clover has “jumped back” too quickly and shaded out the brassicas. I think this year I will just spray gly and then no-till drill the brassicas in right before I spray. I don’t think this will kill the clover, but am hoping it does set it back long enough to allow the brassicas to get started.

In the past, I may have only mowed or sprayed 2-4d and Cleth. I have never tried Gly. I was always worried about killing a good clover plot.

When you sprayed gly at 1 quart and acre how long until your clover jumped back?


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I typically use a rate of 2.5 oz/gal of water. Usually saw the clover take 2-3 weeks to start to rebound.

 

[Foggy47]

I have some very thick clover and did plant brassica (GHR / PTT / DER) into the clover about 4 weeks ago. It's somewhat "OK" in a few places....but was mostly a waste of seed as the clover it too well established to allow the brassica to thrive. I have 8 acres of pretty lush clover currently. I am committed to no till / no disk.

Now.....I intend to plant brassica into 1/2 of my clover plots to have a fall attractant. All below is hoped to be accomplished with rain in the forecast.

Here is my current plan:
1. Apply 1.5 qt / acre 41% Glyphosate on the areas to be brassica plots.
2. After letting those areas above stand for a day......use drill to plant 9 # brassica mix (5 lbs GHR/2 PTT/ 2 DER) / 7 # clover mix / 100 # Cereal Rye.
3. Flail mow the clover very short for mulch immediately after planting.

My question becomes..... Is spraying the clover and letting it stand more effective in setting back the clover?........than if it were mowed first and then sprayed??

My thought is that spraying mowed clover duff will do little to set back the clover. I also think it's easier for my drill to operate in the standing clover.

Thoughts on this order of doing things? Thanks guys.