Random ramblings

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Was riding around the farm this weekend and was thinking about bs that I sometimes ponder.

The first was how we assign value to animals. We have no problem killing a coon or possum or coyote and throwing them in a ditch. All native species. Yet we do that with a deer or turkey and it’s a big no no. We say it’s for management sake on the varmits but for many of us we need to kill does for management’s sake. Doing something with the meat is often a roadblock to getting numbers where they need to be for the landscape. Yes some of us have the ability to donate which takes some of the burden, but if people are truly hungry (which I don’t buy is much of a case in this country) why are they too good to eat a coon or possum? I know several folks that have eaten them and they are edible…so they say. Also why is a hawk above reproach. Does anyone have a shortage of those bastards? I saw 2 turkeys and zero quail but double digit hawks. If one didn’t know any better I’d say our management structure seems to benefit the predator…For the record I’m not advocating shooting deer and dumping them in a ditch or doing the opposite with a coon but the hypocrisy on taking lives is not lost on me.

Second is water. Everything from construction to development to agriculture to the guy with a deer farm who cares about their roads, works to get it to go where they want it. It’s all funneled, sent downstream for someone else to dick with. How does this not lead to more flooding or even raising of sea levels or sediment deposits shallowing creeks and rivers, raising water temps and completely altering the aquatic life? Water is no longer given the ability to saturate. It’s all about getting it off your property as fast and controlled as possible. It’s wild how we work so hard to control everything. I’m guilty of it, I work all summer on roads and the main issue is how do I get water to go where I want it. The other thing I’ve noticed is when you funnel it, the ditches become formidable. I wonder what these ditches look like in a 100 years. We may have some legit canyons in places.

Just some questions that I think about from time to time. I’ll never answer or fix any issues, I just wonder if others ponder stuff like this

 

[Turkish]

Was riding around the farm this weekend and was thinking about bs that I sometimes ponder.

The first was how we assign value to animals. We have no problem killing a coon or possum or coyote and throwing them in a ditch. All native species. Yet we do that with a deer or turkey and it’s a big no no. We say it’s for management sake on the varmits but for many of us we need to kill does for management’s sake. Doing something with the meat is often a roadblock to getting numbers where they need to be for the landscape. Yes some of us have the ability to donate which takes some of the burden, but if people are truly hungry (which I don’t buy is much of a case in this country) why are they too good to eat a coon or possum? I know several folks that have eaten them and they are edible…so they say. Also why is a hawk above reproach. Does anyone have a shortage of those bastards? I saw 2 turkeys and zero quail but double digit hawks. If one didn’t know any better I’d say our management structure seems to benefit the predator…For the record I’m not advocating shooting deer and dumping them in a ditch or doing the opposite with a coon but the hypocrisy on taking lives is not lost on me.

Second is water. Everything from construction to development to agriculture to the guy with a deer farm who cares about their roads, works to get it to go where they want it. It’s all funneled, sent downstream for someone else to dick with. How does this not lead to more flooding or even raising of sea levels or sediment deposits shallowing creeks and rivers, raising water temps and completely altering the aquatic life? Water is no longer given the ability to saturate. It’s all about getting it off your property as fast and controlled as possible. It’s wild how we work so hard to control everything. I’m guilty of it, I work all summer on roads and the main issue is how do I get water to go where I want it. The other thing I’ve noticed is when you funnel it, the ditches become formidable. I wonder what these ditches look like in a 100 years. We may have some legit canyons in places.

Just some questions that I think about from time to time. I’ll never answer or fix any issues, I just wonder if others ponder stuff like this

Bruh. Water is headed for an enormous problem. Aquifer regeneration is becoming an issue, but there’s about as much research in that space as CWD. I don’t know when, but our speed boating water to the Gulf will not be without major consequences.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Bruh. Water is headed for an enormous problem. Aquifer regeneration is becoming an issue, but there’s about as much research in that space as CWD. I don’t know when, but our speed boating water to the Gulf will not be without major consequences.

So I see you’re a fellow wonderer as well….

 

[Turkish]

So I see you’re a fellow wonderer as well….

If you spend all your free time in the loess hills of SW MS and have an observant eye, you get to see how quickly water can affect a landscape. Big wide beautiful eons-old hardwood bottom with a canyon in the middle. Walk upstream and the canyon turns into a ditch, then peters out to a 2’ waterfall that moves up the holler 100’ a year. Clearly things are changing.

 

[T-Max]

There’s only one cure for that. More field tile!!!

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

There’s only one cure for that. More field tile!!!

A thousand acre row crop field complete with drain tiles might as well be a data center

 

[SD51555]

Was riding around the farm this weekend and was thinking about bs that I sometimes ponder.

The first was how we assign value to animals. We have no problem killing a coon or possum or coyote and throwing them in a ditch. All native species. Yet we do that with a deer or turkey and it’s a big no no. We say it’s for management sake on the varmits but for many of us we need to kill does for management’s sake. Doing something with the meat is often a roadblock to getting numbers where they need to be for the landscape. Yes some of us have the ability to donate which takes some of the burden, but if people are truly hungry (which I don’t buy is much of a case in this country) why are they too good to eat a coon or possum? I know several folks that have eaten them and they are edible…so they say. Also why is a hawk above reproach. Does anyone have a shortage of those bastards? I saw 2 turkeys and zero quail but double digit hawks. If one didn’t know any better I’d say our management structure seems to benefit the predator…For the record I’m not advocating shooting deer and dumping them in a ditch or doing the opposite with a coon but the hypocrisy on taking lives is not lost on me.

Second is water. Everything from construction to development to agriculture to the guy with a deer farm who cares about their roads, works to get it to go where they want it. It’s all funneled, sent downstream for someone else to dick with. How does this not lead to more flooding or even raising of sea levels or sediment deposits shallowing creeks and rivers, raising water temps and completely altering the aquatic life? Water is no longer given the ability to saturate. It’s all about getting it off your property as fast and controlled as possible. It’s wild how we work so hard to control everything. I’m guilty of it, I work all summer on roads and the main issue is how do I get water to go where I want it. The other thing I’ve noticed is when you funnel it, the ditches become formidable. I wonder what these ditches look like in a 100 years. We may have some legit canyons in places.

Just some questions that I think about from time to time. I’ll never answer or fix any issues, I just wonder if others ponder stuff like this

I make small water holes all over my property to try to keep water. If you’ve got massive erosion troubles, make your ditches and then pack them full of big firewood to slow down the water and hold the sediment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Turkish]

I make small water holes all over my property to try to keep water. If you’ve got massive erosion troubles, make your ditches and then pack them full of big firewood to slow down the water and hold the sediment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like Wilson and I make some of his beaver dam analogs. But it’s pissing in the wind in this dirt.

 

[356]

Thanks for sharing your rumnations. Great food for thought.

Just as carp is considered a trash fish in America and a delicacy in Asia, so too is the value we place on various critters. Crows used to be prime game birds--but times changed after the "kill a crow, feed a soldier" campaign during WWI (and to some degree, WWII). Eighty years later, crows are just now starting to become popular.

It helps me to remember that these critters don't just "go to sleep and die of old age." Those that are not harvested by hunters (hopefully in an ethical way--see my reference to this in another thread where a landowners wanted me to shot hogs in the gut), will die by disease, predation (being eaten alive does not sound fun), cars, freezing, starvation or thirst.

 

[Double Creek]

Thanks for sharing your rumnations. Great food for thought.

Just as carp is considered a trash fish in America and a delicacy in Asia, so too is the value we place on various critters. Crows used to be prime game birds--but times changed after the "kill a crow, feed a soldier" campaign during WWI (and to some degree, WWII). Eighty years later, crows are just now starting to become popular.

It helps me to remember that these critters don't just "go to sleep and die of old age." Those that are not harvested by hunters (hopefully in an ethical way--see my reference to this in another thread where a landowners wanted me to shot hogs in the gut), will die by disease, predation (being eaten alive does not sound fun), cars, freezing, starvation or thirst.

The older I get, the harder I find it to kill anything, even when I probably should to help promote species that I'm more interested in. I guess I'm just getting soft in my old age

I do draw the line at hogs. I'm heartless. If legal, I would happily poison them and really wouldn't care about their fate. That is a scourge that needs to be removed from the landscape.

 

[hillrunner]

The older I get, the harder I find it to kill anything, even when I probably should to help promote species that I'm more interested in. I guess I'm just getting soft in my old age

I do draw the line at hogs. I'm heartless. If legal, I would happily poison them and really wouldn't care about their fate. That is a scourge that needs to be removed from the landscape.

My instant reaction to your 2nd paragraph is a negative one. Then I remember I buy mouse poison by the gallon to place around outbuildings. How is that any different? I guess it probably isn't but it feels different to me.
Kind of like how growing up on the farm we would kill pigeons, starlings, and sparrows to our hearts content but would never dare shoot a barn swallow or song bird.

 

[Telemark]

if people are truly hungry (which I don’t buy is much of a case in this country) why are they too good to eat a coon or possum? I know several folks that have eaten them and they are edible…so they say. Also why is a hawk above reproach. Does anyone have a shortage of those bastards? I saw 2 turkeys and zero quail but double digit hawks. If one didn’t know any better I’d say our management structure seems to benefit the predator…For the record I’m not advocating shooting deer and dumping them in a ditch or doing the opposite with a coon but the hypocrisy on taking lives is not lost on me.

There is a lot to unpack here.

First, it's not hypocrisy to value animals differently. Same with plants. Same with people, actually.

Wildlife management isn't based on any single factor or location. Raccoons have mostly lost their value as meat and fur, and they are abundant and reproduce easily. They have become a nuisance in many areas. If a new virus wiped out 90% of their population, we probably would be happy just to see one. Trees like chestnut and ash are suddenly very dear to us because diseases are threatening to wipe them out.

Culture and law often interfere with our choices as well. You don't eat raccoons or coyotes, but some people do. I assume you don't eat bugs, but some people do. I eat shrimp and lobster, but some people don't. Law is usually a reflection of culture but codified through a bureaucracy such that there are enforceable penalties for violating the laws, like killing hawks and wolves, which are probably overpopulated in many areas. Other animals are so popular as food that their harvest must be limited. Some animals are so highly prized that we have domesticated them, and they dominate the American diet even though they are not native to North America.

Even people are valued differently from one individual or group to another. Think of abortion, death penalty, war, etc. If you take the most recent issue of immigration, there is great complexity in how we value people. Do you value Israelis over Palestinians? Do you value criminals over their victims? Many people want illegal immigrants removed from American soil. There was a Ukrainian immigrant killed by an American on a train.

Assigning value is not inherently hypocritical. The nuance is in how we assign value. Hypocrisy comes from assigning value in conflicting ways. Laws can be hypocritical. People can be hypocritical. But an individual is not hypocritical purely by assigning different values to different things.

 

[MN Slick]

I've been cogitating way too much about invasives lately. The MFR has exploded and cedars are popping in CRP and getting too crowded in old pasture ground. Invasives are giving me anxiety, LOL. We either have to deal with it, especially MFR, or it will affect deer usage, land values, and we won't even be able to enter the timber. Owning land comes with great responsibility!

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I too have turned soft in my older years, but I am starting to regret it. I value the lives of deer, and when I choose to harvest one, I do so with respect. The regret part, I had gone soft on rabbits, squirrels and even those little red little bastards. Now, I have an over abundance of squirrels and rabbits the past couple years. I vowed this spring and summer I will be thinning the varmints out.

The last few falls, the crows, eagles, and hawks have gotten so bad. I will toss the deer carcasses out and there will be 20 eagles on it in a couple days, along with hawks and crows.

Just down the road from me, a friend let his dogs out, and looked out and 4 wolves had his dogs surrounded, luckily he went out when he did. The wolves up here are getting out of hand, and something has to change. For anyone defending wolves and doesn’t want them to be managed should be required to come here and take a few home with them and deal with them. I know, I know, I moved into their area, blah blah blah, but 25 years ago, there was just a small fraction that there is today. What was a couple times a year story at the local bar of a wolf in someone’s yard, is now a daily occurrence. I hear them nightly all within a mile of me, which before, they would come in for a couple weeks, and be gone for several months before they come back. Now it would be odd to not see or hear wolves.

 

[KY wild]

I use to have squirrel dogs and enjoyed hunting with them and almost everyone would give me permission to hunt them after deer season because they are way to thick. I did not like eating them so I would be conservative and only take 2 or 3 for the dogs interests when I could take 10 often times. I had 2 or 3 gentleman that would take them to eat but sometime I would throw them in a ditch. I had no problem with this because they were over populated and a small rodent in my eyes. With that said I soon found almost everyone else thought It was an outdoorsman sin to throw a squirrel in a ditch. This opinion stemmed from their grandfather teaching them if you shoot it you better eat it, if not then don't shoot it for respect for the animal. I always found this argument a little ridiculous, yes the animal wants to live but it don't want you to eat it, in fact I bit it would prefer to rot into the ground. I understand Granddads argument that you should only kill when you need to eat but we all know in todays world this is bullshit. The last few years when someone would ask me to rabbit hunt I would go for the fun but would not take a gun because I don't see many rabbits anymore. To me it is just this simple if a species is over populated or invasive then we should remove some, if species is struggling then we should help it and not kill it. I throw back every bluegill in my pond to catch again but I take out every bass because they are stunted and over populated and sometimes I eat but sometimes I throw them in a ditch.

 

[Telemark]

I use to have squirrel dogs and enjoyed hunting with them and almost everyone would give me permission to hunt them after deer season because they are way to thick. I did not like eating them so I would be conservative and only take 2 or 3 for the dogs interests when I could take 10 often times. I had 2 or 3 gentleman that would take them to eat but sometime I would throw them in a ditch. I had no problem with this because they were over populated and a small rodent in my eyes. With that said I soon found almost everyone else thought It was an outdoorsman sin to throw a squirrel in a ditch. This opinion stemmed from their grandfather teaching them if you shoot it you better eat it, if not then don't shoot it for respect for the animal. I always found this argument a little ridiculous, yes the animal wants to live but it don't want you to eat it, in fact I bit it would prefer to rot into the ground. I understand Granddads argument that you should only kill when you need to eat but we all know in todays world this is bullshit. The last few years when someone would ask me to rabbit hunt I would go for the fun but would not take a gun because I don't see many rabbits anymore. To me it is just this simple if a species is over populated or invasive then we should remove some, if species is struggling then we should help it and not kill it. I throw back every bluegill in my pond to catch again but I take out every bass because they are stunted and over populated and sometimes I eat but sometimes I throw them in a ditch.

It would probably be batter to skin and gut the squirrels and put them in a freezer until you can get them to someone who would eat them.

If you want to use them as fertilizer, you can bury them next to a tree or shrub. I do this with the raccoons and groundhogs I shoot. I have buried about 20 of them at or near the base of fruit trees, and it seems to have a phenomenal impact. You could even bury them deep in a flower or vegetable garden. I guess Indians used to bury fish with their corn, and fish is still a relatively common fertilizer.

I'm not judging you, since I don't know what the squirrel situation is where you are. I'm just suggesting ways to utilize the animals you shoot if you care to.

I actually dragged a roadkill deer over to a pawpaw patch to try to fertilize the trees and attract flies and beetles to pollinate the flowers. It got eaten by coyotes and hawks, but it was worth a try. Better than it sitting by the side of the road causing potentially even more traffic problems.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I use to have squirrel dogs and enjoyed hunting with them and almost everyone would give me permission to hunt them after deer season because they are way to thick. I did not like eating them so I would be conservative and only take 2 or 3 for the dogs interests when I could take 10 often times. I had 2 or 3 gentleman that would take them to eat but sometime I would throw them in a ditch. I had no problem with this because they were over populated and a small rodent in my eyes. With that said I soon found almost everyone else thought It was an outdoorsman sin to throw a squirrel in a ditch. This opinion stemmed from their grandfather teaching them if you shoot it you better eat it, if not then don't shoot it for respect for the animal. I always found this argument a little ridiculous, yes the animal wants to live but it don't want you to eat it, in fact I bit it would prefer to rot into the ground. I understand Granddads argument that you should only kill when you need to eat but we all know in todays world this is bullshit. The last few years when someone would ask me to rabbit hunt I would go for the fun but would not take a gun because I don't see many rabbits anymore. To me it is just this simple if a species is over populated or invasive then we should remove some, if species is struggling then we should help it and not kill it. I throw back every bluegill in my pond to catch again but I take out every bass because they are stunted and over populated and sometimes I eat but sometimes I throw them in a ditch.

Yeah, so this is where my head goes too. Besides the legality of wanton waste, I struggle with what is our ethical duty as a steward. I can’t quantify a squirrel overpopulation so I can’t speak to that but I can a deer or coon or coyote or possum or hawk or bass or catfish etc. I have zero problem throwing a hundred 12” bass on the bank every summer in the name of the ends justify the means. My lake will be healthier as a result. Sucks for the bass that get tossed but what is their lot in life if I don’t? Stunted hungry fish in relentless pursuit of what scraps they can find. Is a deer population different? If I have 60 plus dpsm, I can’t put a dent in that without it being a full time job. So I don’t. And I still have 60 dpsm at the detriment of the ecosystem. But rules and ethics prevent me from tossing them in the ditch. If I post a pic of a hundred coons in the back of my sxs and ditch them I get an attaboy for thinning them out, and I’d be the first to heap praise on someone for doing the same. It’s just a weird double standard.

Also hawks. I hate them. They may be as bad or worse than a coon. I would like to see the scientific justification for not thinning those. I know the South Georgia quail plantations operate with impunity cause every senator hunts them, kills every hawk they see. Works for them. Why can’t I do that.

 

[SwampCat]

Yeah, so this is where my head goes too. Besides the legality of wanton waste, I struggle with what is our ethical duty as a steward. I can’t quantify a squirrel overpopulation so I can’t speak to that but I can a deer or coon or coyote or possum or hawk or bass or catfish etc. I have zero problem throwing a hundred 12” bass on the bank every summer in the name of the ends justify the means. My lake will be healthier as a result. Sucks for the bass that get tossed but what is their lot in life if I don’t? Stunted hungry fish in relentless pursuit of what scraps they can find. Is a deer population different? If I have 60 plus dpsm, I can’t put a dent in that without it being a full time job. So I don’t. And I still have 60 dpsm at the detriment of the ecosystem. But rules and ethics prevent me from tossing them in the ditch. If I post a pic of a hundred coons in the back of my sxs and ditch them I get an attaboy for thinning them out, and I’d be the first to heap praise on someone for doing the same. It’s just a weird double standard.

Also hawks. I hate them. They may be as bad or worse than a coon. I would like to see the scientific justification for not thinning those. I know the South Georgia quail plantations operate with impunity cause every senator hunts them, kills every hawk they see. Works for them. Why can’t I do that.

But there is also the perception - and truth - too many coons, possums, coyotes, etc - means fewer quail, turkeys, and rabbits. Most of us dont have the perception that too many deer are limiting other sought after game animals - even though the deer over population might be damaging a particular component of the environment that turkeys depend on.

I would love to have excess does - we wouldnt have excess does for long. I havent killed a doe on my ground in fifteen years - not because I dont want to - but because I am afraid it will unbalance the delicate balance of our deer population. I have seen my ground where it is hard to see a deer - and I dont want to see that again.

The human brain is a complex organ. When I had my boat on the coast, I couldnt wait for red snapper season. When season was over, I cussed the snappers when trying the catch groupers.

You dont ever see world wildlife organizations with advertisements saying we need to go to africa and aerial gun elephants so we can save the kudu and eland - even though countries like zimbabwe and botswana are so overpopulated with elephants that they are over eating the forests - actually changing the habitat to the detriment of themselves and many other species.


I love to bear hunt. Do I want a bear on my property - HELL no. Folks spend millions of dollars on land to grow a big deer. If I had huntable populations of quail, ducks, turkeys, and rabbits - I would not care if I ever saw a deer bigger than a spike the rest of my life. People are a complex animal.