Questions for the brain trust

[drycreek]

I have a food plot on my lease that is planted to Green Cover Fall Release. Although it was planted in the conventional fashion, discing lightly, seeding and fertilizing, and dragging to cover the seed, it is my hope to eventually go to the “buffalo system” as Dr. Woods describes it. The plot has lots of clover in it now that I’m hoping will survive and flourish once the rye is dead. My first question is, if I roller crimp the rye, will the clover survive that ?

Second question, at what stage should the rye be crimped ?

The GC mix has brassicas in it, and I haven’t found a deer in my area that will eat them, no matter how cold it gets. Third question is, what can I get them to replace the brassicas with besides more rye that will add more variety to the mix ?

Thanks !

 

[356]

A couple of thoughts: First, I would adopted a “modified Buffalo system” (or release method, as he now calls it) that includes spraying periodically. While I no-till, I don’t crimp, so those guys will need to chime in of the clover termination question. I would start with NT, then work the plot a couple of years before going with a crimper—and don’t sell the disk right away.

If the deer are not used to winter brassicas, it may take a season or more for them to start browsing them…or they may chose something else. Don’t hesitate to make your own winter blends using what you know the deer like and will work in your zone. You could also do a simple broadcasting of winter rye over the GC around the time of planting or add some to the GC mix.

 

[SwampCat]

East texas is not going to be kind to perennial clover. I am not a fan of rye - it gets too tall too quick - like april on my place. I want my clover to really put on the growth in the spring - put out as good a root system as it can. Even then, if in the direct sun, very likely to die in late summer. I dont mean die back - I mean die, dead. I like to leave my clover kind of weedy in the mid to late summer - it helps shade it some - like 1 ft tall weeds. You will probably have to plant a quick green up crop into your clover next fall to provide something for your deer to eat in the fall. I plant wheat. I always say the wheat is for me to hunt over, and the clover is for the deer in the summer. Deer will not mess much with my brassicas. Hogs wont even eat the roots. Personally, I dont see much benefit planting anything but wheat and clover. Many years, I end up completely planting clover again in the fall.

 

[drycreek]

I did add rye to the mix, although it already had some, I needed to stretch the seed to fill the plot. I’m happy with how it turned out except for the brassicas.

I know the clover won’t last through the summer, I’ve had that experience many times. I’m hoping it will last through June maybe and if the weather gods smile, maybe I can plant some buckwheat or sunn hemp in it. I think the clovers in this blend are annuals anyway.

Even though I like this mix, I’m not hung up on this release thing. I have planted many a lush plot that the deer loved using the method I described above. I can sell my crimper if I need to, but I’m gonna give it a shot and see what happens.

 

[356]

Drycreek, I was not aware that you already had the crimper. With that at your disposal, I would definitely try to terminate the rye and not worry about the clover.

The University of Missouri is doing intense research on the release method as part of their research into regenerative practices, which I have been following closely. I know some of the participants through the state Prescribed Burn Council. Many Missouri farmers participating in this project are avid hunters, so the voice of habitat improvement is being heard. One of my goals is to maintain our ag production while enhancing wildlife food and habitats on those acres. Here is a link to the MU Regenerative Ag series.

 

[TreeDaddy]

I believe the folks at Green Cover recommend crimping at the anthesis or flowering stage of rye

bill

 

[drycreek]

Thanks for the link 356, I’ll check it out. And thanks Bill for that info. Now all I have to do is recognize the anthesis stage when I see it !

 

[SwampCat]

My clover is usually productive into early august. If shaded, it has a chance of living through the summer. Buckwheat at my place is eaten before it has a chance. He challenge for us southern plotters is aug and sept. Beans or peas if your deer density not to bad

 

[omicron1792]

I crimp and have no problems. It’s simple and easy.

Grant woods has some good videos on when to crimp rye.

I’m not a huge fan of brassicas, but it takes deer a few seasons to figure out new crops. I certainly wouldn’t abandon them after one fall. If not eating them in 3 years then consider switching.

Welcome!

 

[Foggy47]

You dont say where you are located. That can make a huge difference. I'm in North Central MN.....and clover thrives here until it gets to freezing temps. This I what I have learned to date: (tho I am trying a few other things this year too.)

I rely on a mix of clovers (red and white) and winter rye planted in late August each year......as my primary crop(s). That clover provides for my deer from spring to fall....and is a preferred and nutritious food to the deer. Both the rye and clover are "there" as the snow disappears each spring and food is desperately needed in the north country.

I terminate the rye with a roller crimper in July and it's in the anthesis stage at that time. The clover is largely unaffected by the roller crimper - or perhaps it even stimulates the clover growth. I rely on the rye for fawning cover when it's standing in late May and thru June......and then again later it becomes a mat of mulch when it's rolled. Both prevent weed competition for the clovers and enhance the growth of the clover in both situations. I then will mow the clover and weeds that grow, or spray grasses that may develop in the clover.

Lick Creek used to say: "Clover and winter rye go together like peanut butter and jelly"....and it's true. For me they thrive together. One (clover) producess nitrogen......and the other (rye) scavages nitrogen and other nutrients and stores them until the rye is terminated....which then is provided to succeeding crops. A great plan! Meanwhile the mulch keeps the soil cooler and prevents evaporation. Under ground level....the root mass from the clover and rye are retaining moisture which is much needed most summers.

I treat my brassica planting in a different way now....rather than interseeding into the clovers (which does not work very well for me). Now, I select certain areas within my clover plots and will try to terminate the clover with 2,4-d and glyphosate.....and then a few days later, I scalp the clover to the dirt and perhaps do a little tillage when planting my brassica. (gotta wait about ten days for plant-back concerns of 2,4-d) The terminated clover again provides most of the nutrients to grow brassica. Later, clover is again planted in the late summer when I plant winter rye again.

The roller crimper is a good way to handle the rye......but it is a tool that gets little use. I think I could live without it. I did not use mine last summer.....relying instead on herbicides and my flail mower to do these jobs. Still.....the mat provided with the roller crimper is pretty slick and I plan to use it this year.

Edit: There are some great YouTube videos by the University of Wisconsin and others regarding winter rye and crimping....as well as the Growing deer videos. I have too short of a growing season to do the summer release AND a fall release plan.....thus the plan I suggest above works better for me.

 

[omicron1792]

I think you’re right on the crimper foggy. I get more use because I plant a true summer crop, that is where it shines. That said, I use it one day a year. I think I could get similar results with flail mower (that you put me on, thanks again!).

@SwampCat uses wheat. He has good bottom land soils and has been caring for his plots for years. I am lowering my rye amount yearly, and next year plan on using 25 each is rye/wheat/oats (75 total) in my clover plots and probably 50/25/25 in my regular release type plots.

But early, 150-200 of rye seems to be the key to getting soils healthy. And, you could just stick with rye and do great. @Foggy47 prob wouldn’t get much benefit foe anything with oats, they wouldn’t survive the winter.

Crimson clover terminates pretty well with crimper. The other annuals so so. The perrineal whites aren’t fazed. That’s a good thing if not doing a summer crop. If so, I would consider not adding whites to your mix.

 

[Tree Spud]

The problem here in the north, is that if you plant a spring crop and allow it to get to maturity for crimping or cutting to create thatch, you will have to wait till at least July assuming you can plant your spring crop by mid of May. This makes planting your primary late summer and fall food source very risky as many require 90 days for maturity. July & August can be notorious for low rainfall amounts, late start to spring planting due to weather, etc. makes the risk even worse.

Very hard to do 2 crops when your primary growing season is late May to Early Sept which is about 4-4.5 months.

If you are in the southern half of US, much more room time for 2 sequential crops.

 

[drycreek]

I’m in East Texas. It’s very hard to get anything to last past June here, maybe July if you have some rain in June. Speaking of beans or peas, as Swampcat alluded to, even though my deer density is not that high, if I plant beans or peas in my little plots, they evidently invite their in-laws and cousins because the crop won’t last long. The plot pictured above is on a lease and it’s a little over a half acre, too small for peas or beans. I’ve planted IC peas there before and they lasted about six weeks. I know they did some good during that time but another month would have been great. I’m thinking about trying Sunn Hemp there.

My plot at home has the same seed planted in it. The difference is, I broadcast into a partially standing GC Warm Season Soil Builder plot, crimped, no fertilizer. Partially standing because the hogs attacked the brown top millet when the seed heads got mature. It didn’t do nearly as well as the lease plot, and the ph of the two plots are very close. I think I should have fertilized it.

 

[RGrizzzz]

Check your phosphorus levels if the brassicas aren't being touched. They should at least go after the greens. Buckwheat is supposed to be a good P scavenger. If you do see you're low on P, fertilize a small section, and see if that helps. Deer can be picky when it comes to P levels.

Pass the Phosphorus

This blog doesn’t just write itself. So Duane and I are always looking for fun and interesting stuff to share. It’s not always easy especially after almost 10 years of posts! I asked Duane if he had any cool trail camera videos to give me some inspiration. Instead, I got a paper published in...

www.deer.psu.edu

 

[drycreek]

Check your phosphorus levels if the brassicas aren't being touched. They should at least go after the greens. Buckwheat is supposed to be a good P scavenger. If you do see you're low on P, fertilize a small section, and see if that helps. Deer can be picky when it comes to P levels.

Pass the Phosphorus

This blog doesn’t just write itself. So Duane and I are always looking for fun and interesting stuff to share. It’s not always easy especially after almost 10 years of posts! I asked Duane if he had any cool trail camera videos to give me some inspiration. Instead, I got a paper published in...

www.deer.psu.edu

I looked at my last soil test, that was in 2022, and my phosphorus levels were great. Needed lime, but I’ve limed since then. I have planted brassicas before and deer just don’t eat them here like they do in the North. I think the plot in my last pic would have been much better if I had fertilized it. That won’t happen again, I mean I’m already hooked up to my broadcast spreader, all it is after that is a few $ between a lush plot and one that favors the top of my head.

 

[bigboreblr]

Chicory, plantain, and even vetch can be substituted for brassicas. If you have the space, maybe letting the land go fallow for the summer might not be a bad idea.

IF the clover is dying in the summer, I'd still replant it for the fall. MAybe use medium red or crimson clover. They're short lived and grow a bit faster to make up for their short life.

They say buckwheat neds less water than some other summer crops. I would try a variety of things, even in one plot. There's no one magic mix for everywhere.

 

[drycreek]

Y’all have given me some food for thought and I appreciate it. I can get a custom mix from GC and I had thought about that before I posted this thread, I just didn’t know exactly what to replace the brassicas with. As I added rye to the mix before, I could just get them to leave the brassicas out and add something of my own. Meanwhile, if any of you need some turnip greens, I know where I can find some……….

 

[RGrizzzz]

Y’all have given me some food for thought and I appreciate it. I can get a custom mix from GC and I had thought about that before I posted this thread, I just didn’t know exactly what to replace the brassicas with. As I added rye to the mix before, I could just get them to leave the brassicas out and add something of my own. Meanwhile, if any of you need some turnip greens, I know where I can find some……….

It'll be good organic matter and help with compaction over time. You might consider leaving it in for those reasons.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I looked at my last soil test, that was in 2022, and my phosphorus levels were great. Needed lime, but I’ve limed since then. I have planted brassicas before and deer just don’t eat them here like they do in the North. I think the plot in my last pic would have been much better if I had fertilized it. That won’t happen again, I mean I’m already hooked up to my broadcast spreader, all it is after that is a few $ between a lush plot and one that favors the top of my head.

They don't abuse mine ether and I'm in Minnesota.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Y’all have given me some food for thought and I appreciate it. I can get a custom mix from GC and I had thought about that before I posted this thread, I just didn’t know exactly what to replace the brassicas with. As I added rye to the mix before, I could just get them to leave the brassicas out and add something of my own. Meanwhile, if any of you need some turnip greens, I know where I can find some……….

I would still include turnips and radishes in the mix. Just cut the rate in half. There are some benefits to planting brassica even if the deer do not use them much.