Question for SoybeanMan or other Eagle experts - Transferred from QDMA forum

[yoderjac]

I planted about 3 acres of Eagle beans this spring. I was fortunate and they all pretty much survived the heavy browsing of our high deer densities. Here is the picture from mid-July:

The beans never recovered beyond this point. For the most part, the browsing didn't kill them, it just kept them from filling in.
I drilled them on 9" rows at the recommended 50 lbs/acre. My cleared ground is limited, and it is obvious that I'm not planting enough to match our deer densities. (Yes, were shooting every doe we can).
I hope to add another acre or two next spring, but that is about all the land I can dedicate to soybeans. So, here is my question. I presume the recommended planting rates are driven by two factors, 1) Sunlight available to each plant, and 2) Soil nutrition available to each plant.
Clearly, with my deer densities, sunlight to each plant is not an issue. The question is how much can I increase the planting rate before soil nutrition becomes the limiting factor? I presume there is a point of diminishing returns where more plants don't provide more total foliage because of competition for nutrients.
So, next year I'll be trying to plant between 4 and 5 acres total. What is the maximum planting rate I can use before I'm just wasting my money on seed.
You can see that before the deer started hitting them, they were starting to fill in.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

IF you provide 70 lb of P2O5 and 90 lb of K2O per acre, that should suffice for a 50-60 lb per acre bean seeding rate. We broadcasted seed at ~75 lb/ac this spring with 90 and 120 lb of P and K, respectively....seemed to work just fine.
The other factor to consider is a soy leaf stores nutrients for the developing bean. At a certain stage of growth, leaf nutrients are reallocated to the bean. In a high deer density area, sufficient leaf material won't be left for pod development. Hence, new leaf emergence/pod set should increase the need for more soil available P and K.
Soy plants make some 'allowances' in growth depending upon plant density. Brad can comment further there.

I don't have a drill--I just broadcast mine and then cover. It just looks to me that there is a lot of wasted ground that could be growing soybeans when drilling like you did. I know you can use less seed per acre when drilling but if you could cover the entire ground with soybean plants you would be able to provide more coverage.
Here is the difference when broadcasted:

just a thought coming from a person who has never used a drill.
todd

I was thinking the same thing, especially under heavy browse. I used about 75lbs per acre broadcast. The downside is it makes RU application harder.

Here a pic of a 3 acre field planted on 15'' rows this year. The field was planted very late something like the 20th of June if I remember correctly anyways spread 800lbs 5-20-20 right before the planter came through and they took off! This area is loaded with deer so I upped the population to around 60-65lbs per acre and fertilized the heck outta it. Very warm moist soil helped them grow super fast and I never touched them with RU once and they put on a good set of pods as well.

I sow 140,000 to 180,000 seeds per acre (2500-3000 seeds per pound) so I would agree with other comments and up the planting rate.
Make sure PH is correct also as soys are kind of fussy about that as well.
Drilling or broadcasting shouldn't really make a difference and either should work equally well...;)

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks guys for all the input. The recommended broadcast rate is 70 lbs/ac and 50 lbs/ac drilling, so I think you guys that are broadcasting are doing so at an equivalent rate. I applied lime and fertilizer according to soil tests. My beans have no problem growing. My problem is the very heavy browsing pressure.
I'm probably not being as clear with the question.
Weather we start with broadcasting 70 lbs/ac or drilling 50 lbs/ac, we are talking about having roughly the same number of plants per acre after germination. With Large Ladd, I planted about 160,000 seeds/ac
I think the reason we don't plant more seeds per acre (beyond a point) is because planting more seeds per acre does not result in additional production because of competition between plants. Some of the competition is water and nutrients from the soil, and some is sun. With my deer densities, sun is not a factor.
So, I'm looking for where the upper limit might be in plants/acre (regardless of application method).
I notice that typical soybean drilling tables go from about 125,000 to about 200,000 seeds per acre. I would presume from that for regular soybeans, 200,000 seeds per acre is about the limit.
So my question is this, would this be the rough limit for Eagle beans? (let's pick Large Ladd as an example with 160,000 seeds per 50 lb bag and I can extrapolate from there for the others). Or, is there something different about forage beans like Eagle that would allow me to exceed 200,000 plants per acre with my browsing pressure?
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

I don't have seed counts but this may help?
Pics from last year. These are Eagle Managers Mix. Drilled at 70 - 75 lbs per acre on 7.5 inch rows. 0 fertilizer, the extra seed did not seem to hurt.

Now because they were so thick I cut back to 50 lbs per acre this year. (sorry no pics)
I have a good crop this year also and they seem just as thick. The only difference I noted between this year 50lbs and last year 70lbs is weeds.
Planting 70lbs/acre in killed sod needed no additional spraying, the beens out competed the weeds.
This year I needed a second application of Gly to control weeds.
Having said that, I don't have enough experience to say the amount of seed was the cause. We had never ending rain this year and the weeds are terrible everywhere.

 

[yoderjac]

So, it looks like you are saying 50 and 70-75 lbs/ac produced the roughly the same amount of forage for beans that are lightly or moderately browsed.
That is what I would expect since 50 lbs/ac is the drill rate Eagle recommends. (I think Mgrs Mix is about 180,000 seeds/50lbs).
Would we expect the same results with high browsing levels like I have?

 

[yoderjac]

Not sure I buy that 40% of brodcasted seeds don't germinate, therefore making the number of germinated seeds at 70lbs per acre with 40% not germinated equal to 50lbs drilled with 100% germination. 75lbs per acre would assume 50% seeds not germinating.
I'm pretty certain I ended with more than 60% germination. Closer to 95%+, which ends in something like 140% more germinated seeds than 50lbs drilled with 100% germination.
I always thought the reason for less lbs per acre drilled wasn't as much around germination (sure it will be better, but not 40%-50%) but around not crowding out the plants in the row and reducing the min seed requirement due to perfect spacing for maximum growth per plant in the least amount of space. But that assumes maximum growing conditions where the plants can actually grow into the spacing.
I suspect under no browse growing conditions yield per seed per acre is higher with drilling, but have done enough and seen enough broadcasted plots to conclude they can have as much or more total yield per acre.
Sounds like you're looking for maximum total yield per acre, its at least 75lbs of germinated and growing seeds per acre.

The dynamics of the Optimal forage production is of course related to palant density, soil nutrients, water, and now with the inclusion of grazing animals, Deer.
That said, as Bill pointed out, more weed competition when less seed per acre is planted.
There is a relation between planting density and water usage, But the other factors I think often outwiegh planting on a lesser density to reduce inter-competition. The way I see, Yoder, because of the animal pressure, you need a higher plants density, to reduce the effects of early "nipping". That's what gets your plots so patchy.
Also, this is a discussion I have with a work associate on a regular basis... He heard all about low Plant density for South Texas back in the Day, Like Tecomate does with Lab Lab, BUT..........
The fact is that none of that applies if you allow weeds to grow in the place of the desired forage!
What I do see benefitting you, is a tighter row spacing, and also an increase in plant density, at least 60#'s per acre. But that said, a 9" spacing really should be fine, But I do think that 6 or 7" spacing would help. Now to what extent, I could not tell yo.
To discuss the germination differences, Yes, on scientific average, Braodcasting at the same rate per acre is less effective. What we see here is that incorporation methods are a big culprit to thes numbers, but also, soil moisture dynamics. Drilling into into pre-existing moisture will always aid in more uniform and more reliable germination. There also is not just the idea of percent germination, but effective germination. Just because a seed germinates on the surface or below the surface, does not mean the seedling will necessarily survive. (i.e. lack of moisture on top/crusted surface, Lack of energy to push upwards when planted too deep). Drillings helps to negate these issues. When seed is broadcast, there is a much larger difference in uniformity of "depth of coverage or lack thereof". Now reliability of rainfall, and typical length of actual rainfall events (i.e. All day slow rainfall) will always help determine the success of our Broadcasted Efforts. So if you live in Floerida, you can probably expect better success than those of us on the western half of Texas. ;)
A typical increase in seeding rates between drilled and broadcasted is 20 - 30%, not 40%. I generally look more closely to the 30% range.
Now at 30% increase, 50 lbs (drilled) x 1.3 (Increase) = 65 lbs broadcasted.
Strangely though, 65 lbs (broadcasted) x .7 (30% decrease) = 45.5 lbs.
So notice that there is a difference between calculating % increase and decrease in seeding rates.
LASTLY, I'll mention that one of the other factors involving why to increae, when broadcasting, is loss of seed to "birds".
Yoder, If I were you, I might up the seed per acre a little bit,
Re-examine Soils: Correct any Micronutrients that you affordably can, and also possibly overapply a bit on the Phos and potash, Maybe a 10 - 20% increase. I would also see no ill affect of an over-the-top liquid application (in low doasges), early on, to really kick off those sucker.
Obviously another acre planting might help too, but you may not have that as an option.
Lastly there is that dang E-fencing. Which might eventually prove cost-effective, if increased seed rates and everything else is taken into perspective.
ONE QUESTION, when did you plant? Was soil tempereature adequate or optimal? This could make some difference too, in how the animal pressure affects your plots from the get go.
Good Luck with next seasons Crop! Cave Creek

 

[yoderjac]

Cave,
Great info. I think I caught the planting time about right. While there was some early pressure, in the end, the deer did not kill many plants. I planted in late April. There was plenty of green-up of natural foods which helped keep the pressure down. I had good soil temp and sufficient rain. I used plotsaver in a few small spots as an experiment. While the stuff inside the plotsaver got pretty lush and started to fill-in, in the end, it made no difference. The deer did not kill the plants outside the plotsaver. I took down the plotsaver in late June when the deer started to break into it. Within a week, it looked just like the unprotected areas. I was very impressed that the Eagle beans stood up to the browsing pressure. The deer really started hitting them in July and beyond. They are still in them every night.
I would like to use closer spacing, but that is not an option with my Kasco. It has fixed 9" rows. I was still learning about the drill this spring, and some of the "wide row" spots were simply me not making passes close enough to each other. I'll correct that next spring.
I will be drilling again. I've done some broadcasting in the past and I get much better results drilling. I also understand about the weeds, but I can mitigate that easily with gly. I did two sprayings in the spring and one in late summer before broadcasting rye into the plot. With gly, weeds were not a big issue for me this year.
As for planting rates, I'm convinced I can increase the rates by 25% with no ill effect. What I'm being asked by my fellow owners is if we could increase rates by 100%. My personal sense is that doubling the seeding rate would be a waste of money. I could see it if the deer had hit the plants before establishment and actually removed a significant number of plants. But instead, all they did was keep eating the leaves off and the plants stayed alive.
Again, my personal thoughts are that adding 1.5 to 2.0 acres to the 3.0 acres I planted last spring plus increasing the rates by 25% would be a reasonable target for next spring. I'm also considering adding some RR corn to the beans to use up some of this year's N. If I do that, I'd likely increase beans by 20% and make the other 5% corn.
I just want to make sure from the experts that I'm not completely out to lunch here and that a 100% increase in rates would be way off, or that I am out to lunch and 100% increase is reasonable.
From all the replies I've seen to this post, it doesn't look like anyone is exceeding about 200,000 plants/acre after all is said an done. If there is anyone out there with high browsing that is exceeding 200,000 plants per acre, I'd like to hear from you.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
With that said, I would take an increase in acreage to plant Every Day of the Week, compared to Increasing seeding rates.
Increasing the plant population won't hurt, and that 20 % or so I think would be just fine. But the additional acreage would make all the difference.
Yes, 100% increase in seeding rate, in my opinion, Would be dumb. Not to name call or anything. :p
I do wish you would try some of that RR tropical corn so that I would know if its worth a darn. ;)

Ok---now if you look at Yoder's pic you see A LOT of unused soil. Obviously the deer pressure is high which is keeping the plants from overcrowding. It honestly looks as if 30% or so of the ground is not being used. If the seed was broadcasted then that 30% of unused ground would be growing soybean plants which would increase the amount of forage available to the deer. If the deer keep the plants short (like they look like in the picture) over competition and overcrowding is not going to be an issue.
Now in Bill's pic where he drilled also there is obviously not the browsing pressure--whether that would be from lower numbers of deer or increase acreage of planting (doesn't really matter) the plants were allowed to reach full growth and thus grew in thicker and taller.
So I guess what I am saying there is a lot of wasted ground in Yoder's plot that could be growing soybean plants.
todd

 

[yoderjac]

DogDoc,
Yes, there in lies my question. Is that really "open ground" or are the plants just distributed differently? If you take the broadcast plot and strip all the leaves off the plants and just count the stems, we may have the same number of stems per acre in both cases, just distributed differently.
You are absolutely correct that from a foliage perspective I have no crowding issue with my deer densities. However, keep in mind the unbrowsed picture was early. In the end, my rows did all fill in with stems. I did have some rows that were planted a bit deeper in spots and took a bit longer to emerge than others. In the end, that first picture is how the fields ended up looking. Plenty of stems in each row with few leaves.
So, I'm not sure how much of that ground is wasted and how much is needed by the plants to keep producing leaves. I'm sold on a 25% increase in seeding rates.
Cave,
I agree on increasing acreage. I have limited cleared acreage to plant and I'm trying to keep about 60-65% in clover/chicory. I've moved a number of fields from soil improvement projects into perennial plots and will increase my soybean acreage next year by converting old clover plots to beans/corn. I haven't really don't any homework on the tropical corn. Want to educate me?
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

The only way that could be true when comparing a 70lb broadcasted plot to a 50lb drilled is if in the end the same number of seeds germinated. I know Cave referenced 65lbs, but the thread started with 70 , and most I know that broadcasted used 75lbs. None the less stick with 70 for ease of math.
20lbs of the 70lbs would have to not germinate to be equivalent and if someone is loosing that on Eagles, thats nuts and EXPENSIVE. Pretty sure more plants per acre come from 70-75 broadcasted vs 50 drilled. In perfect conditions yield per plant per acre may be better, thats a different measure.
Billb drilled at 70-75 lbs , looks like it worked.

If I were in a situation where the beans were wiped out I would consider electric fencing a viable option after doe control. I may try my hand at regular beans in the next year or two. I hope that four acres will be enough.

 

[yoderjac]

Actually, the beans served my purpose. My reason for planting them was to provide quality food during the summer stress period, not to produce beans for fall. The Eagle beans did just that. The more the deer ate, the more the beans kept putting out new growth. I have lots of cereal and clover to cover fall.
For my use of beans, the E Fence or Plotsaver is really only useful for getting the beans established. Mine beans got established. I did get some loss toward the end of summer when we had a drought, but by then, it was time to broadcast rye into them.
If I were planting the beans for a fall or winter food source, I'd be looking at fencing as you suggest. I will probably do some small plotsaver sections again next year just as an experiment. If the deer start killing them during establishment, I may have to go to E fence, but that is not my problem so far (knock on wood).
We are in a DMAP program and get 20 free doe tags on top of the normal ones that come with each license. We have not been able to fill all 20 tags yet, but we try. Last season we were at 80% female harvest.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

The only way that could be true when comparing a 70lb broadcasted plot to a 50lb drilled is if in the end the same number of seeds germinated. I know Cave referenced 65lbs, but the thread started with 70 , and most I know that broadcasted used 75lbs. None the less stick with 70 for ease of math.
20lbs of the 70lbs would have to not germinate to be equivalent and if someone is loosing that on Eagles, thats nuts and EXPENSIVE. Pretty sure more plants per acre come from 70-75 broadcasted vs 50 drilled. In perfect conditions yield per plant per acre may be better, thats a different measure.
Billb drilled at 70-75 lbs , looks like it worked.

Banc,
Yes, one can argue the difference in germination rates. I'm sure the difference depends on a lot of factors including soil moisture especially since my drilling is no-till. How you cover and whether you cultipack is also a factor. The point I was trying to make (although I'm not sure I made it well), was that an acre of soil will only support so many plants regardless of whether you got to that number via drilling or broadcasting. That number of plants an acre will support probably varies with soil, water, and browsing pressure.
I think it is more important that I end up with the right number of plants per acre than the method I use to get them. As you say, the measure I'm looking at is maximizing the tonnage of food per acre-day available to deer through the summer stress period for the least cost. Now, I know I'm not going to get it perfect.
So, by that measure, if I read Billb's post correctly, I'd say it didn't work. In other words, planting extra seeds per acre did not seem to provide him with more tonnage per acre than drilling 50 lbs/ac. However, he did not have my level of browsing.
Again, I'm just trying to think this whole thing through and the inputs from everyone is helping me work through it. Thanks!
jack

 

[yoderjac]

Banc: I guess my point is that really just depends on your moisture conditions.
Those of us with more arid ground can easily loose that much, if not more seed due to Uneventful Rain Events. I.E. Just enough to get seed to germ out, but not set root.
Now for those that are not on a true clay soil, a person can sometimes work up the ground when it is still moist (i.e. final tillage) and incroporate into that moist ground. But now for those with clay soils... we are more likely just to make a mess, compact soil, and ruin soil aggregate structure. This is one good reason for using a drill.
And again, I already mentioned depth uniformity. Now you guys may see any seed on the surface that didn't germinate and grow, but Do YOU really see the seed that was buried too deep, and couldn't make it??? Still I insist, the thing to focus on here is not germination, but establishment of seed, from seed, germinated to seedling, and then effectively rooted.
I have personally lost a lot of seed when broadcasting (due lack in quantity of rainfall).
Now for those that live on their property and are able to run out and seed right before the 3" rainfall event already realized in across the county line, well that's a little different.
Todd: To clarify, there is some ground that didn't get "well utilized". But yoder pointed out that was from some voids in his tractor driving.
Maybe a Whitetail Buck, a Blonde, or a Bruskie had temporarily distracted him. Who really knows??? :rolleyes:
But if he ensures no gaps next time with a 9" spacing... you really can't improve from that by broadcasting.
Now in regard to actual Uniformity of Seed Spread across the surface of the soil:
If 200,000 Plant Population was spread across an acre os soil....
and planted on Yoder's 9" Drill spacing, then.... (if I calculated right), his seed spacing should be 3.4" by 9".
Now if you took that same plant population and Broadcast (and it was perfectly uniform and SOMEHOW on a square orientation... then your seed spacing would be about 5.6 inches square, or 5.6' by 5.6".
Now honestly, I don't think that would make much of a difference in anything.
But as with any time I open my mouth, think, or allow my fingers to speak for me... I could be wrong. :D

 

[yoderjac]

The managers mix has the crawling beans, I had areas I was mentioning to FPD and Brad that looked thin and both said not to worry. They filled in fine with the crawlers, but it took 4 more weeks than the other areas.
Your issue is a tough one. Whats the max plant per acre under heavy browse. The less browse, the lower plants per acre to reach max yield.
Under no browse for 8 weeks, 75lbs was thick and tall and didn't seem over done.
Its 1/2 gone now and we're seeing 6-9 deer an evening sit.

I was assuming EVERYTHING equal and good moisture, only variable method and rate.
But do get at some point the yield curves cross and seed rate decreases total yield.

 

[yoderjac]

The managers mix has the crawling beans, I had areas I was mentioning to FPD and Brad that looked thin and both said not to worry. They filled in fine with the crawlers, but it took 4 more weeks than the other areas.
Your issue is a tough one. Whats the max plant per acre under heavy browse. The less browse, the lower plants per acre to reach max yield.
Under no browse for 8 weeks, 75lbs was thick and tall and didn't seem over done.
Its 1/2 gone now and we're seeing 6-9 deer an evening sit.

I was assuming EVERYTHING equal and good moisture, only variable method and rate.
But do get at some point the yield curves cross and seed rate decreases total yield.

 

[yoderjac]

...Todd: To clarify, there is some ground that didn't get "well utilized". But yoder pointed out that was from some voids in his tractor driving.
Maybe a Whitetail Buck, a Blonde, or a Bruskie had temporarily distracted him. Who really knows??? :rolleyes:
...

I wish I was distracted by one of those things. The problem was that I wanted a no-till drill but only had a broadcast pocketbook! So, when I was able to pickup a used 4' Kasco no-till for 3K, I jumped a the chance. The problem is that my Kioti DK45 is wider than the drill. So, I was hard for me to line up rows at first. I have it down now, my front tire goes just inside my rear tire track from the last pass. My passes are aligned pretty well for this fall plant.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Yeah, Jack I forgot to mention that if you really wanted to make it easy on yourself, you could rig up something on the front of your tractor Like PVC, that would extend to the point that would align your tractor/drill with the location it should be to prevents skips. Then you could have like a short piece of chain, acting like a plumb bob, pointing out where your where.
Tractor tire method works... Doing this would just put your sight out Further in front of you, where it might me easier to keep eye on, less strain, and require less steering wheel correction. Just another thought.

 

[yoderjac]

It is not too bad in soil that has been tilled, but when I'm no-tilling, it is hard to see where the previous pass ended. I've actually thought of putting a homemade foamer on the drill much like the one I put on my sprayer.
If a field has not been touched recently, I can usually follow tire tracks pretty well. However, for some crops (not soybeans) I will drill the filed multiple times with different seed. For example, I may drill cereal on one pass, cowpeas on another pass, and radish on a third pass through suppressed clover. In most cases I'm just doing strips. With this approach, it is sometime hard to tell which tire tracks are new and which are old. I haven't convinced myself a foamer is worth it yet.

 

[yoderjac]

Man, that's a lot of passes. :eek:
Guess there is no seed box agitator huh?
Looks like Jack needs one of them Satellite Guided GPS units for Farmers. :p

 

[yoderjac]

No, it only has one box and no agitator. I've tried mixing seed. You can stop after each pass or two and hand agitate, but I have not been happy with the results. I know others are happy mixing seed with the Kasco. I will mix some seeds like rye and oats that are in the same ball park, but in general, I'll make multiple passes.
I think my preference comes largely from the difficulty in calibrating the drill for a mix. I'm always tweaking my mixes and I'd have to figure out how to calibrate the drill for each mix. It is real easy to calibrate for a homogeneous seed, and I've got some pretty good numbers for that.
Maybe in time I'll start working on mixes in the future.