Proactively Planning 2021....need thoughts.

[tynimiller]

So I've got a land tour thread, but that didn't seem the appropriate spot - if I'm wrong please inform and I can delete and post there. However, this is more of a discussion based situation many may relate to in some way so felt might be applicable here.

As some know I purchased just shy of 23 acres in "urban type" setting near my home in 2016. Urban deer are a unique animal, but over the years we've implemented numerous plantings, cuttings, plots and such - however 2020 a ton changed and more is on the way and it is 100% affecting the normal deer tendencies of the property. What I'm rattling around in my head now is capturing all the factors that most likely are causing things, what future things might and be proactive in design rather than reactive.

So quite briefly here is the property...and notes forward with thoughts.





Would love to pick some brains here as all of you are dedicated land managers as well and perspectives are insight all too often ignored. Trespassing is an issue here but getting less and less as we progress....parking/access is off the roadway to the south, along the thin drive that runs in middle from the west (through the neighbor verbal easement to the west) and also through my buddy's piece he now owns there to the west but connects to my northern part on the west side. East side we have the only access permission to walk, recover game, but not hunting is to occur.

I'm stuck in a conundrum where true bedding cover is getting eradicated to the W and NW, but clearly until changed the creek bottom to the East is a large bedding area...that field is presently setting fallow on like year 7 and invasive pears and cedars are even starting to pop up. My father is attempting to buy that piece but the owner sees it much more valuable than muck/flooding ground is worth and is tough to get to communicate with. So while bedding isn't a present issue persay...it could be someday.

Late Winter food is also a limited commodity as deer populations continue to increase more and more. You'll notice I have a thought of carving out the NW clover/fruit plot (Have multiple fruit trees planted throughout that area)...and I'm thinking of eliminating some of the briar cover/sight blocking that separates the larger food source plots to the SE of property, but unsure. My first rough mock up of what I envision is as follows for plot expansions:




Thoughts, no matter good or bad please share.

 

[tynimiller]

Not that it will change much, but here is a side angle aerial from 2018 I believe it was...

 

[DiSc0Rd]

I'm just a first time first year land owner but I've been hunting a long time and have several friends that live near golf courses and we have an area just like near my house and the deer are always seen there. I'm not going to pretend to try and give management advice but I will say I think you got yourself a honey hole on your hands. Good luck my friend

 

[Tree Spud]

So I've got a land tour thread, but that didn't seem the appropriate spot - if I'm wrong please inform and I can delete and post there. However, this is more of a discussion based situation many may relate to in some way so felt might be applicable here.

As some know I purchased just shy of 23 acres in "urban type" setting near my home in 2016. Urban deer are a unique animal, but over the years we've implemented numerous plantings, cuttings, plots and such - however 2020 a ton changed and more is on the way and it is 100% affecting the normal deer tendencies of the property. What I'm rattling around in my head now is capturing all the factors that most likely are causing things, what future things might and be proactive in design rather than reactive.

So quite briefly here is the property...and notes forward with thoughts.
View attachment 32340
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Would love to pick some brains here as all of you are dedicated land managers as well and perspectives are insight all too often ignored. Trespassing is an issue here but getting less and less as we progress....parking/access is off the roadway to the south, along the thin drive that runs in middle from the west (through the neighbor verbal easement to the west) and also through my buddy's piece he now owns there to the west but connects to my northern part on the west side. East side we have the only access permission to walk, recover game, but not hunting is to occur.

I'm stuck in a conundrum where true bedding cover is getting eradicated to the W and NW, but clearly until changed the creek bottom to the East is a large bedding area...that field is presently setting fallow on like year 7 and invasive pears and cedars are even starting to pop up. My father is attempting to buy that piece but the owner sees it much more valuable than muck/flooding ground is worth and is tough to get to communicate with. So while bedding isn't a present issue persay...it could be someday.

Late Winter food is also a limited commodity as deer populations continue to increase more and more. You'll notice I have a thought of carving out the NW clover/fruit plot (Have multiple fruit trees planted throughout that area)...and I'm thinking of eliminating some of the briar cover/sight blocking that separates the larger food source plots to the SE of property, but unsure. My first rough mock up of what I envision is as follows for plot expansions:
View attachment 32345
View attachment 32346


Thoughts, no matter good or bad please share.

Is there a cliff's notes version?

I mean small properties have limited opportunities. You basically have an undeveloped large lot in a sub-division ... pros & cons to that. Eliminate visual approach, hunt the wind, or understand the human activity and use to your advantage. Number 1 rule ... deer respond adversely or positively to pressure or the lack of it.

Cool that you are trying to manage a small urban parcel like a very large rural area, not sure how it translates?

I remember being asked once by a friend who was contracted to remove geese from a golf course during fall hunting season. Sun rose, geese lighted off the pond and we shot 3 of them. Went to retrieve a couple that landed in a yard along the golf course. Some old lady came racing out of the house with a baseball bat screaming we killed her babies. As we walked back across the course to our blind, we got yelled at by carts of cranky senior guys trying to run us over with golf carts. We showed our guns and the appropriately retreated.

That was the last time I had any interest hunting in an urban setting.

I have to ask ... why are you so vested in this parcel in this setting?

 

[OakSeeds]

TS I infer - from your story -that you/others entered a woman's yard carrying shotguns ... apparently without permission ... after shooting geese on a golf course where golfers were playing golf while riding in golf carts. You suggest you and associates used the display of firearms as a defensive move to counter attempts to run over you with a golf cart. I don't know if the golf course was in an incorporated area or free standing in the country; however, it seems to me a number of folks accepted substantial potential liability in the situation. I can understand your reluctance to hunt geese on an occupied golf course.

 

[Telemark]

Looks awesome! I have one suggestion that you didn't mention, but I think would help you a lot:

Get some kind of remote/cellular camera system to monitor movement, and check it often, and keep track over the years. I haven't hunted in urban areas, but I grew up right next to an urban deer hunting area, and what I learned about that place was fascinating.

Most of the deer, including all the big bucks, bedded in the part of the property that got the least human intrusion. This was verified by a thermal scan from a helicopter. The big bucks were nocturnal except for the rut. There was about 2 weeks in which they were up and moving around in the daylight, and they searched pretty wide areas. This happened every year like clockwork, and my cameras would suddenly start getting daytime photos of roaming bucks. I figured if I had some kind of warning system to tell me when a buck was on his way, I could probably take him with a bow from a blind. At the very least, I could probably narrow down the 3 or 4 days when he was most likely to come by and give me a shot.

I never hunted that spot because of the hassle involved with hunting a municipal park. But if I owned a property like that, oh man would I have fun. Good luck to you.

 

[j-bird]

Hunting near/in suburbia has to have it's headaches....and I avoid it if I can simply because it's not worth the trouble. I have seem other posts and the like and I know you have taken some deer deer here. So I will ignore that headache.

As for what to do. My OPINION and you know what they say about those....is that I would focus on your cover. Cover is king especially on a small property. I would break your projects up into smaller ones so you leave the deer some place to be. Addressing the JBH in the core of the property is going to be pretty disruptful....but will be well worth it in the long run. I would look into trying to kill two birds with one stone with any of your projects (again just trying to get the most use out of every inch of dirt you have). I would hinge and the like as you need, but also be planting shrubs and trees that can provide food and cover for the wildlife. As such you may have to fence off few acres at a time to give everything a chance. It will look funny, but should help get some of those things established before you move on to the next project. As for expanding food plots...again....I would look into layer plots of summer beans and then fall cereal grains and brassica if that is an option. Also trying to enhance your native foods in any way you can will be a big help as well. I don't like big plots if you are limited to bow hunting. It makes covering the plot difficult and reduces the security factor as well.

I love the way you hunt the edges of the property and leave the core alone. Keeping the pressure of the deer and not educating them is a huge must on small properties. I would NOT put a stand in that SW corner. You have to worry about over hunting a small place as it is....the deer will come out of there sooner or later.

Something you have to keep in mind is it's ~20 acres. Having multiple hunting options and multiple food and bedding sources like you would on 100 acres is going to be very challenging. I like your ideas for improving the cover, and I understand your desire to increase the food. What I would do is focus your food plantings for when YOU like to hunt the most. And try to target those foods to be ready during that time. You are not going to provide 100% of the food a deer needs on a year round basis on 20 acres. Heck I have 150 acres in ag country and I don't do it! Focus your plotting on killing deer. I target the month of November.... even with my fruit tree selections and the like. Try to keep the ladies happy and uneducated until then with safety and the big boys will come looking for the ladies or find a nice little corner for themselves...maybe.

 

[Tree Spud]

TS I infer - from your story -that you/others entered a woman's yard carrying shotguns ... apparently without permission ... after shooting geese on a golf course where golfers were playing golf while riding in golf carts. You suggest you and associates used the display of firearms as a defensive move to counter attempts to run over you with a golf cart. I don't know if the golf course was in an incorporated area or free standing in the country; however, it seems to me a number of folks accepted substantial potential liability in the situation. I can understand your reluctance to hunt geese on an occupied golf course.

We did not enter anyone's yard, as we approached bat lady came running out to her lot line screaming before we could ask permission.

Did not aggressively display guns, just turned and they saw us with our shotguns.

Golf course had DNR permits to allow hunters to to remove nuisance geese. Course was supposed to be closed and these guys snuck on without checking at the clubhouse. Assume thats why the guys in the golf ran off as they knew they were not supposed to be there.

Just pointing out that urban hunting has lots of unique challenges...

 

[yoderjac]

I've done a lot of archery hunting in urban environments. I was one of the founding members of Suburban Whitetail Management of Northern VA back in the day. In my experience, very little is needed in this kind of setting. The focus should be on minimizing pressure. In urban areas, deer quickly adapt. I've told this story before, but it is a great example. I was hunting on a small 5 acre property adjoining a stream and undeveloped stream valley. The deer would run the stream valley during the day and then come up to the ridges where they developments were and feed on landscaping. I saw the same kind of behavior repeatedly. Kids would be playing basketball in the driveway, yelling and screaming. A neighbor would be cutting his lawn. The dog in anther neighbors yard would be barking like crazy. The deer would be feeding peacefully as they walked through the stream valley of oaks on their way to the houses. They could be 40 yards from activity in a yard and not be the least bit alert. At one point, the neighbor cutting his grass, stopped and removed the bagger from his mower. He took a half dozen steps into the woods to empty the bag and the deer took off like mad. As long as people were where they were "supposed to be" they were not a threat.

Another example was a project we had. A large company owned about 1,000 acres where they had a training facility. In spite of recommendations from the game department they never allowed hunting. Turns out that facility reported to another facility and the president of the other facility was a PETA member. So the deer were so overpopulated that they would walk right up to people and eat out of their hands. At some point, the need for food overcomes fear. They sold the property to a developer. They enlisted our archery group to quietly get the deer population under control. Many folks used the area for walking and fishing and such, and the developer wanted to keep the fact we were hunting quiet. We were working with the game department and had special kill permits for out of season harvest. Because we were hunting in a park-like setting we instituted a number of safety rules including only down angle shots from an elevated stand were permitted. For the first week or so, we had a lot of success because it was like shooting fish in a barrel, but deer soon adapted. They learned that humans on the ground were not a threat. You could walk within 10 yards of a deer with no issue, but the minute you climbed up a tree they avoided you. They learned that humans in a tree were a threat in about a week and a half.

The take away from this is that deer in a urban environment don't have the same fear response as deer in an area with predators. Predators include human hunters. In most urban areas, firearms are not permitted, and folks don't grow up with a hunting heritage in urban environments like in the country. So, if I was managing for deer hunting in an urban area, I would do it quite differently. It does not take much from a food perspective to attract deer. A small clover plot would do the trick. The key is to find ways to minimize the hunting pressure. When we hunted small properties in a suburban environment, we found that when we got a new property, we would kill a few deer and then things would change. The deer would continue to come up from the stream valley to feed on landscape, but our hunters would watch them come up and feed on neighboring properties in the evening and avoid our property until after dark. So, I would have many stand locations that I could rotate and access with a minimum of disturbance to the place.

I'll let you absorb that and consider the principles.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[tynimiller]

Is there a cliff's notes version?

I mean small properties have limited opportunities. You basically have an undeveloped large lot in a sub-division ... pros & cons to that. Eliminate visual approach, hunt the wind, or understand the human activity and use to your advantage. Number 1 rule ... deer respond adversely or positively to pressure or the lack of it.

Cool that you are trying to manage a small urban parcel like a very large rural area, not sure how it translates?

I remember being asked once by a friend who was contracted to remove geese from a golf course during fall hunting season. Sun rose, geese lighted off the pond and we shot 3 of them. Went to retrieve a couple that landed in a yard along the golf course. Some old lady came racing out of the house with a baseball bat screaming we killed her babies. As we walked back across the course to our blind, we got yelled at by carts of cranky senior guys trying to run us over with golf carts. We showed our guns and the appropriately retreated.

That was the last time I had any interest hunting in an urban setting.

I have to ask ... why are you so vested in this parcel in this setting?

Because it was all I could afford in my HIGH real estate county or surrounding that I live in. So I own it, and therefore have vested interest. The deal which presented the acquisition of it was too good to pass in relation to what this parcel even elsewhere in the county would pull. I have buddies that spent more on their diesel trucks than I spent on this land.

100% small properties have their own unique headaches and also limitations for sure.

Sorry for the length...even at this length I left out countless things, some of which I'm addressing in discussion with other posters.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I would make a list of projects and then prioritize them. Start from the top down and work on that project from start to completion. It is way to easy to bite off more than you can realistically chew and it will seem like nothing ever gets accomplished. Do one thing at a time and do it well.

 

[tynimiller]

Looks awesome! I have one suggestion that you didn't mention, but I think would help you a lot:

Get some kind of remote/cellular camera system to monitor movement, and check it often, and keep track over the years. I haven't hunted in urban areas, but I grew up right next to an urban deer hunting area, and what I learned about that place was fascinating.

Most of the deer, including all the big bucks, bedded in the part of the property that got the least human intrusion. This was verified by a thermal scan from a helicopter. The big bucks were nocturnal except for the rut. There was about 2 weeks in which they were up and moving around in the daylight, and they searched pretty wide areas. This happened every year like clockwork, and my cameras would suddenly start getting daytime photos of roaming bucks. I figured if I had some kind of warning system to tell me when a buck was on his way, I could probably take him with a bow from a blind. At the very least, I could probably narrow down the 3 or 4 days when he was most likely to come by and give me a shot.

I never hunted that spot because of the hassle involved with hunting a municipal park. But if I owned a property like that, oh man would I have fun. Good luck to you.

-Cameras : So currently due to trespassing issues I have countless boarder entrance cams, and I also have a probably 6-8 (going of memory at the moment, mapped out at home) on the interior of the property. I'm not one to check those often and most of my use of cameras are to log and begin to pick up on buck use tendencies year to year - making them much more killable in my opinion.

Here's the odd thing as far as buck bedding use....over time the bigger bucks begin to learn and adapt to the human factor to a degree. Example, I have a buck that got hit by a car in 2016...one of his hind legs became inoperable by the end of 2017 (he attempted to run and chase and rut that year...) he has since now began bedding as close to the backside of yards, buildings and such...almost like using the "human factor" to avoid the coyotes of the area. It is insane. Then I have other maturer bucks that seem to bed constantly on the interior of mine or clear over deep in that creek bottom ONLY. Urban deer are incredibly odd and unique - and I swear as a buck ages to 4.5 or so in an urban setting their use of the terrain and setting separates even more than farm deer - buck to buck.

 

[tynimiller]

Hunting near/in suburbia has to have it's headaches....and I avoid it if I can simply because it's not worth the trouble. I have seem other posts and the like and I know you have taken some deer deer here. So I will ignore that headache.

As for what to do. My OPINION and you know what they say about those....is that I would focus on your cover. Cover is king especially on a small property. I would break your projects up into smaller ones so you leave the deer some place to be. Addressing the JBH in the core of the property is going to be pretty disruptful....but will be well worth it in the long run. I would look into trying to kill two birds with one stone with any of your projects (again just trying to get the most use out of every inch of dirt you have). I would hinge and the like as you need, but also be planting shrubs and trees that can provide food and cover for the wildlife. As such you may have to fence off few acres at a time to give everything a chance. It will look funny, but should help get some of those things established before you move on to the next project. As for expanding food plots...again....I would look into layer plots of summer beans and then fall cereal grains and brassica if that is an option. Also trying to enhance your native foods in any way you can will be a big help as well. I don't like big plots if you are limited to bow hunting. It makes covering the plot difficult and reduces the security factor as well.

I love the way you hunt the edges of the property and leave the core alone. Keeping the pressure of the deer and not educating them is a huge must on small properties. I would NOT put a stand in that SW corner. You have to worry about over hunting a small place as it is....the deer will come out of there sooner or later.

Something you have to keep in mind is it's ~20 acres. Having multiple hunting options and multiple food and bedding sources like you would on 100 acres is going to be very challenging. I like your ideas for improving the cover, and I understand your desire to increase the food. What I would do is focus your food plantings for when YOU like to hunt the most. And try to target those foods to be ready during that time. You are not going to provide 100% of the food a deer needs on a year round basis on 20 acres. Heck I have 150 acres in ag country and I don't do it! Focus your plotting on killing deer. I target the month of November.... even with my fruit tree selections and the like. Try to keep the ladies happy and uneducated until then with safety and the big boys will come looking for the ladies or find a nice little corner for themselves...maybe.

Hey J! You hit a lot of great points.

You hit my biggest concern about eradicating that JBH...very disruptive...but as you say couple years out and especially 4-5 years out will be the best thing I did. I think I may push to get that started even if I break it into two sections to complete over the next 3 years or so. My worry is if I wait to see more off property bedding eliminated - it would only intensify the cover damage on the greater landscape, where if I do it now, take the gut punch of activity issues that first year or two now - they at least have other options to retreat to. Even spending just one afternoon hinging the NE woods which was logged - will be enough to thicken/build structure in the now more opened canopy woods for good bedding option (albeit small).

Plots - I am primarily a bow hunter, but my Pops hunts here as well and is slowly becoming less and less of a vertical bow guy, and loves the .257Roberts I gave him to use so come firearm he picks that bad boy up - I'm not opposed to shooting a buck with a gun, and honestly this is gonna sound crazy due to all the bucks I've killed...I've never once shot a buck with a gun yet. LOL You are 100% correct though that bow thoughts drive the brunt of my hunting. Summer beans have never been possible - well that's not true, beans producing pods have just never been possible, however I've never fully committed my entire SE plot sections all into them...if I sculpt out a little more space and get closer to the 2 acre amount I'm thinking I may have a shot and if they fail again, at least I've provided amazing summer forage and have plots ready for fall planting. But your Beans then overseeding with cereal grains/brassicas is my favorite thing to do on our other farm we don't own but hunt.

Cover/Plots - While trying to sandwich in a ton of options to the deer on a small scale is tough for sure, what I used to think was the worst aspect of my property (the pond in the middle) it actually assists to segment my property and honestly as I've witness separate bedding options for bucks and doe groups on a smaller scale than I would have thought possible. With edge hunting driving my entire approach - lesson human intrusion - you'll notice I basically provide the deer the entire center swath of my property extending from the NE corner and downward at an angle to the SW. You nailed it with never putting a stand up in that SW corner, that area along the road already had some bedding happening, but with the logging and it thickening up, it is only going to get better - but trying to slip in there off the road without alerting would be dang near impossible. Presently the parking/access is along that corner...I'm in discussions with the county highway department for permission to put a drive in along the SE corner where we are not encourage bedding and would be much better option.

Oh you mentioned plantings...haven't planted nearly enough stuff...but I'll attempt to describe without a map. That NW "clover plot area with the islands of cover. There are 4 pear trees, and 8 apple trees I've planted and two salvaged and recovered now producing wild apple trees throughout. One of those islands has some awesome elderberry plants the deer seem to love, and of course a bunch of callery invasive pear varities which I love to hinge over for the deer to eat as they love it and the trees otherwise are useless - that said I'm finally gonna try to graft over a ton of them this next spring (got in touch and learned from a local fruit farm caretaker so feel I may accomplish some to take).

Also that NE corner under the woods there has a ton of ROD shoved in the ground this past year (half were fenced albeit with small fencing) goal is to have a ROD thicket there and around the outside edges there is 6 chestnut trees I planted back in 2017....a couple are looking like next year they may start producing.

A couple sawtooths have been planted around as well, MG in certain areas, but the big thing I want to do IF/WHEN I eradicate that JBH is plant a lot of plum thickets, hybrid willow edges, chokeberry, arrowwood, few spruces and a few other native bush/low tree varieties.

Appreciate the words man as always! Insight of others perfects an approach.

 

[j-bird]

^^^^ so with all that said....I would split the core JBH project in half. Address 1/2 of it and one of the "woods" hinge cutting projects this year and then let those do their thing and then do the others. As for the food. If you can't grow beans I would then look to doing some sort of annual forage rotation for now. A mix of cereal grains, brassica and annual clovers.....I have seen some annual clovers produce tons of forage before. Let the ag fields in the area feed the deer their beans....and focus on feeding the deer during the hunting season. I would NOT expand the plots until the cover projects are done and doing as intended. I am a firm believer in that cover is king....especially as it may be getting reduced around you and beyond your control.

 

[tynimiller]

@j-bird the more i think on it the more i like the concept of divide and conquer the chunk of JBH...in the same regard I may only do half the plot expansion by only shaving or removing lines of briars but not go as far W or N like I most likely will eventually some day.

 

[Telemark]

-Cameras : So currently due to trespassing issues I have countless boarder entrance cams, and I also have a probably 6-8 (going of memory at the moment, mapped out at home) on the interior of the property. I'm not one to check those often and most of my use of cameras are to log and begin to pick up on buck use tendencies year to year - making them much more killable in my opinion.

Here's the odd thing as far as buck bedding use....over time the bigger bucks begin to learn and adapt to the human factor to a degree. Example, I have a buck that got hit by a car in 2016...one of his hind legs became inoperable by the end of 2017 (he attempted to run and chase and rut that year...) he has since now began bedding as close to the backside of yards, buildings and such...almost like using the "human factor" to avoid the coyotes of the area. It is insane. Then I have other maturer bucks that seem to bed constantly on the interior of mine or clear over deep in that creek bottom ONLY. Urban deer are incredibly odd and unique - and I swear as a buck ages to 4.5 or so in an urban setting their use of the terrain and setting separates even more than farm deer - buck to buck.

The spot that I mentioned, with the least human intrusion, was right behind a senior center, with a lot of outdoor human activity. But there was a fence, and people almost never went back there. And I assume the fence kept the neighborhood dogs out of the bedding area. It was one of the closest spots to humans, but because of the barrier, they felt safer bedding there than the areas that were farthest away from humans but had the occasional hiker or mushroom forager. It's similar to what Jack mentioned about the guy mowing his lawn; the deer determine where the barriers are and feel quite safe as long as the barriers are not violated.

Whitetails are HIGHLY adaptable. It's one of the things that makes their range so massive. It also makes them able to react to changes in the environment. That's why I like a remote camera system for suburban plots or small plots in general. With regards to habitat work, you can blow out your entire property very easily, but they will come back relatively quickly once the human activity stops. I would do the habitat work right after deer season and quit for the year as early as possible before the season opens again.

 

[tynimiller]

Yeah I try to maximize visits by planning whole days there and then staying out...sadly not being there is why i think folks trespass but we are taking more steps to curb this into the future.