Planting Fruit Trees - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

I just planted 3 Jujube trees as an experiment. These require regular watering for the first year until established and are then pretty drought resistant. Unfortunately, they are not near a water source and any water will need to be transported to them.
I decided to try something. I bought 10' soaker hoses and wrapped them around the drip line before mulching over top. I threaded the end of the hose outside the protective fencing. I then bought some plumbing hardware so I could connect the hose to the bottom of 5 gal buckets. I plan to sit the bucket up on some blocks on the up hill side of each tree and connect the soaker hose to it.
I will then just fill 5 gal buckets with water back at my barn and put them in my loader or on my ATV for transport. When I get to the field, I'll pour the water from the transport bucket to the bucket connected to the soaker hose.
Question: Will gravity be enough to water the tree through the soaker hose or does a soaker hose require more pressure?
Thanks,
Jack

I'm not sure I know the answer regarding the soaker hose Jack but I am curious where you got your Jujube trees and even more so how they do for you. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

One other option you could look at are these. I bought 2 of these as an experiment for 2 apple trees i'm putting in. It's not always easy to get to my property to take care of things so i'm giving them a whirl. Stuart had pointed these out to me.
http://www.benmeadows.com/search/Ooz...88/?type=brand

More info
http://www.treecamel.com/faq.htm

Sure hope those work Ed - my two will be getting "deployed" soon.

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Originally Posted by Lickcreek
I'm not sure I know the answer regarding the soaker hose Jack but I am curious where you got your Jujube trees and even more so how they do for you. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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I bought three of them this spring as an experiment. I got them from <http://www.justfruitsandexotics.com
I was specifically looking for an improved variety with fruit dropping characteristics compatible with deer hunting in my area that are grown on their own roots verses grafted on native root stock. Just Fruits was the only place I could find them. The variety I selected was Tigertooth. I just planted them last Sunday. I will report back as they grow and let you know how they do and when they fruit.
If these survive, I'll likely add a half dozen or so more next spring. If the productivity, deer use, and maintenance is as predicted, in a few years, I'll try to incorporate this more fully into my QDM.
Thanks,
Jack

Pretty neat deals! Curious how they work out! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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. I will report back as they grow and let you know how they do and when they fruit
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Keep us posted!

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Originally Posted by CrazyED
One other option you could look at are these. I bought 2 of these as an experiment for 2 apple trees i'm putting in. It's not always easy to get to my property to take care of things so i'm giving them a whirl. Stuart had pointed these out to me.
http://www.benmeadows.com/search/Ooz...88/?type=brand

More info
http://www.treecamel.com/faq.htm
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Thanks! That is an interesting approach. Does anyone else have experience with these that you could share?
Thanks,
Jack

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Originally Posted by smsmith
Sure hope those work Ed - my two will be getting &quot;deployed&quot; soon.
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Me too, and if they don't no big deal. They're cheap enough, well worth the gamble IMO. I think the biggest trick will be filling them. I'm hoping I can take them up to the house, fill them and drag them back out full inside this otter sled(ice fishing sled) we have. Otherwise I guess I might have to fill up some large 10 gallon tanks we have and take the water out to fill. I'm not really sure yet. I really need to pull those things out of the box and figure out a plan I guess!
OH well should be fun. I was up in Marquette County last weekend and the weather was great. We planted a few cedar trees and did hit a few few spots with frost still in the ground but that should be gone this week! Happy Planting!

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Question: Will gravity be enough to water the tree through the soaker hose or does a soaker hose require more pressure?
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
If your talking about the black soaker hose made from recycled rubber then yes they need pressure to work correctly. We use them sometimes in the garden. For berries we use black roll pipe and punch-in drip nozzles....those need pressure but not very much....think I have 25 psi regulators on the system.
For a few trees here is an idea. Get a pack of the 'adjustable volume' drip nozzles from lowes...they are little black things and the cap screws or unscrews to regulate flow...like $2-4 for a 4 or 6 pack...other end is a short hose barb for installing into roll irrigation pipe. Take a 5 gal bucket and drill a small hole on the side and near the bottom...just big enough for the nozzle to 'pop in'....use marine grade silicone to seal around the nozzle and hole. Place buckets near trees and adjust the nozzle to get desired drip rate....prolly 1-2 drops per min would be fine...whatever it takes to give you desired soil moisture around tree. Then just re-fill the buckets at whatever interval..1 week two weeks etc. Should work good for you! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Here is a pic of the nozzle. This one is used on the end of a tygon tube to control flow rate on a weed wiper.

Crazy Ed has the right idea. I'm a general contractor and when my landscapers plant bigger trees in areas that don't receive irrigation they use similar bag setups. I would recommend calling a landscaper you know and ask him to get you a few bags. There are a ton of different types but they all do the same thing. The good thing is, you only have to fill them up every other week or so depending on the amount of rain.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, I've used a soaker hose here at home, and it seems like pressure is required to force water out...but your rig might work. I think I would try it without the mulch to see if it will work. Maybe test in on concrete at home, then you could really see if the water comes through.
If it does not work, I would use a piece of regular garden hose, drill some very small holes in it and hook up to the 5 g bucket. I know 1/16th bits are available at hardware store. That's the size I used on bottom of milk jugs a few years back watering some seedlings where I had no water source. An alternative to drilling holes is using a hot needle to burn holes in the hose. Just fire up a propane torch, grip a large sewing needle with vise grips, get it red hot, punch a hole, reheat nedle, punch another hole and so on. Once the needle gets hot the first time it reheats in just 2-3 seconds.
One thing to avoid is getting any sand/soil in the 5g water, it will find the holes in the hose and plug them.
I like your bucket/hose idea.

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Originally Posted by CrazyED
Me too, and if they don't no big deal. They're cheap enough, well worth the gamble IMO. I think the biggest trick will be filling them. I'm hoping I can take them up to the house, fill them and drag them back out full inside this otter sled(ice fishing sled) we have. Otherwise I guess I might have to fill up some large 10 gallon tanks we have and take the water out to fill. I'm not really sure yet. I really need to pull those things out of the box and figure out a plan I guess!
OH well should be fun. I was up in Marquette County last weekend and the weather was great. We planted a few cedar trees and did hit a few few spots with frost still in the ground but that should be gone this week! Happy Planting!
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Just watch craigslist in Madison for the guy who's always advertising food grade 55 gallon plastic drums. Get a spigot kit like you'd use for a rain barrel and a short piece of hose. Use an atv or tractor and a trailer to haul the barrel out there and fill 'em up. That's my plan anyway.

Yeah thats not a bad idea.....

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Originally Posted by smsmith
Just watch craigslist in Madison for the guy who's always advertising food grade 55 gallon plastic drums. Get a spigot kit like you'd use for a rain barrel and a short piece of hose. Use an atv or tractor and a trailer to haul the barrel out there and fill 'em up. That's my plan anyway.
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Well, that's more or less my plan. May try to find a couple of 100 gallon or bigger tractor tanks... or maybe a cattle trough... hmmmm.... I'm routinely away from the place for a couple of months at a time, but have a 1000 gallon water tank I can use to fill them with. I normally fill the tank the first time I spray, and keep it over there all year, as we don't have running water over there...

Jack..
i know you are doing the soaker hose. But, have you considered Terra Sorb, water keep or another polymer? I have had great luck with them and I think it will help with your water requirements on the ju jubes. spelling??

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Originally Posted by UP Powers
Jack..
i know you are doing the soaker hose. But, have you considered Terra Sorb, water keep or another polymer? I have had great luck with them and I think it will help with your water requirements on the ju jubes. spelling??
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I had not considered it. I figured if I mulch good and water under the mulch, it will retain a lot of the moisture. The more I think about it, the more appealing the tree camel idea sounds at only $12 a pop.

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I had not considered it. I figured if I mulch good and water under the mulch, it will retain a lot of the moisture. The more I think about it, the more appealing the tree camel idea sounds at only $12 a pop.
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I'll &quot;second&quot; the suggestion for water absorbing polymer. On my lighter soils I always dip the roots of bareroot stock into a thick slurry of the stuff and I incorporate some dry powder into the backfill of each hole. I am convinced it has been the difference between surviving and dying during month long dry spells. Just one more thing to do I guess. I just bought 4 lbs. of Watersorb as the 10 lbs. I bought 7-8 years ago was gone.

Third'd. I also picked up a 4lb bag of the Watersorb this year and will be using it with my plantings! Again I have to give credit to Smsmith for sharing a lot of great information with me earlier in my planning stages this winter. Thanks buddy!
Here's a link if anyone needs to get some.
http://www.watersorb.com/prices.htm
I will also share an experience that i had with their customer service. There was a problem with shipping when i ordered. A simple mistake as someone in the warehouse shipped it in the wrong envelope and when it got to my door it was short on postage which is supposed to be included in the price. I ended up picking up the tab on that but they credited my credit card within a day or two, the owner of the company emailed me and apologized and felt bad as It was my first experience with the company. They fixed it right away no questions asked.

Yep, I've ordered from watersorb a few times now and have nothing but positive things to say about their products and customer service.

Thanks guys! I appreciate all the suggestions! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

 

[yoderjac]

Why kind of the Watersorb did you guys buy? From looking at their website it looks as if there are different sizes as well as a powder. Just wondering which is best to use. Thanks

I buy the smallest size they have - powder is what I call it. I have also used larger size polymer from other companies for other applications.

I have used Water Keep and I have attached the website. I believe Water Keep is cheaper than Water Sorb.
I have used either Fine or Small. I think I paid 37 bucks for 10 pounds. Best investment you could ever have on new plantings!!! I do the same as the idiot (sorry hehehehe) use the thick slurry and dry powder in the back fill hole.
5 gallon bucket with water and a zip loc baggie of water keep. Equals.. thick slurry.
Sorry stuart.. couldn't resist!!! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
http://water-keep.com/

I wouldn't put it in the tag line if it bothered me UP (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I believe you are correct about prices too UP. Watersorb used to have a &quot;we'll match anyone's prices guarantee&quot;. I contacted them about Water Keep last year and told them they were getting beat on the price. They gave me some unflattering comments about Water Keep (of which I have no idea re: truthfulness). I told them that they should either remove the guarantee then or back it up. I notice the guarantee is gone from their website (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I use watersorb just because it was the first polymer I bought and had good luck with it. I don't think there is any composition difference between any of the products.
One thing about a product like DieHard root dip is that it comes with mychorrizae in it. More expensive, but I do use it on more valuable (grafted trees, bigger trees) stock when I have it.

I'll consider this for future plantings. Just for planning, how much on a per/pound basis do you use per tree?
Thanks,
Jack

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I'll consider this for future plantings. Just for planning, how much on a per/pound basis do you use per tree?
Thanks,
Jack
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I make a thick slurry of the stuff for dipping bareroot trees into. Then I add around 1/2 cup of the dry powder to the hole as I backfill. When planting potted trees obviously you can't dip the roots - then just add the 1/2 cup to the hole as you backfill. I can't tell you how much 1/2 cup weighs, but it ain't much (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Would you figure you get about 4 trees or so to the pound?

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Would you figure you get about 4 trees or so to the pound?
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No, I'd say more than that. I'm guessing 1/2 cup of the stuff weighs less than a 1/4 lb. 1/2 cup of liquid should weigh about 8 oz. This stuff would weigh less than liquid I'd think. Pure guess on my part.
When you mix up a slurry it doesn't take much of this stuff to make 3-4 gallons of thick, sloppy mix. Again, pure guess on my part - 1/2 cup or so to make that much of the mix.

Jack,
don't think of it as a per pound basis think more like Stuart said regarding 1/4 cup or 1/8 of a cup. I normally take a 1/8 of a cup of the dry powder and throw it in the hole. This stuff goes a LONG WAYS!!!!
In my humble opinion 1/2 a cup seems heavy. I normally do a heavy 1/2 a cup in 5 gallons of water and that makes sludge. But, I am no expert I just know what works for me.

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Originally Posted by UP Powers
Jack,
don't think of it as a per pound basis think more like Stuart said regarding 1/4 cup or 1/8 of a cup. I normally take a 1/8 of a cup of the dry powder and throw it in the hole. This stuff goes a LONG WAYS!!!!
In my humble opinion 1/2 a cup seems heavy. I normally do a heavy 1/2 a cup in 5 gallons of water and that makes sludge. But, I am no expert I just know what works for me.
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Your humble opinion is valued.(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Here at home in heavier soil I probably only sprinkle a few tablespoons. In Juneau Cty. where I am dealing with sand, sand, and more sand (Friendship series) I use a lot more. I also dig the holes probably three times larger than I do at home. Part of that is because I want the trees lower - that way I can create a 10&quot;-14&quot; depression all the way around. That helps to be a &quot;water catch&quot;. Another reason is that I am incorporating at least 50 lbs. of humus/compost into the backfill. I sprinkle that much powder around the larger holes because I have more area to compensate for - if that makes sense.
As you point out that stuff does go a long ways. I learned that one year after incorporating too much of it in some small shrubs' backfill. After a heavy rain my shrubs were literally pushed out of the ground by the swelling of the product.

I plant trees with a depression around them but not that deep. I do not use a depression if I am in a low area when planting. Then I just dump 5 gallons of water in the depression when watering.
I had a gravity flow watering system I used for one year to fill depressions. It was a type of system with two 55 gallon drums in the back of my pickup and atttached hoses and nozzles. I found it quicker and better exercise to just cut the top off of the barrels, tip them up, and dip out buckets of water for the trees.
On the sand, I have also buried 18 inch to 2 foot sections of drain tile-one open end up. Put it next to the tree when you plant it. Just dump the bucket of water in the hole and go to the next tree.

What would you think of this idea? Most of our sand has a very low pH. Apple Man says that apple trees do best with a Ph of 6.3 to 6.7. What if we woudl put some pel lime in the drain tile before watering? would we raise the pH in the root zone quicker? Add fertilizer to the tile, also?
Sorry to steal the thread.

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Originally Posted by sandbur
What would you think of this idea? Most of our sand has a very low pH. Apple Man says that apple trees do best with a Ph of 6.3 to 6.7. What if we woudl put some pel lime in the drain tile before watering? would we raise the pH in the root zone quicker? Add fertilizer to the tile, also?
Sorry to steal the thread.
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I generally incorporate a few big handfuls of pell. lime as I am backfilling. Then, each year I throw a few lbs. of pell. lime around the drip line of each tree. I'd think your idea would certainly benefit the trees.

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Originally Posted by smsmith
I generally incorporate a few big handfuls of pell. lime as I am backfilling. Then, each year I throw a few lbs. of pell. lime around the drip line of each tree. I'd think your idea would certainly benefit the trees.
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I do the same.

 

[yoderjac]

Well, here is what I ended up doing. As I mentioned before, I placed soaker hoses around the drip line under the mulch before fencing. I had intended to connect the hose to a 5 gal bucket and let gravity do the rest, but someone pointed out that these soaker hoses need more pressure that a little gravity can provide. Someone else recommend the ooze tubes.
So, I added the Ooze tubes each of which hold 15 gal. My sprayer tank is 55 gal. I removed the hand sprayer from it and added a male hose connection. (Later I'll put a female hose connector on a short piece of hose to the hand sprayer so I can hook it up and use it when needed). I then added filler tubes to the Ooze tubes.

If you look closely at the picture, you can see the clear tube tie wrapped to the post with a female hose connector and the other end running well into the green Ooze tub fill hole.

When I want to water the trees, I fill the sprayer with water. I then connect the hand sprayer hose to the clear filler tube and fill the Ooze tube with water. I've got 3 trees and since they hold 15 gal and are usually not completely empty, they take about 30-40 gal of water. Once they are filled, I hook the sprayer hose to the soaker hose and do a direct watering of the tree under the mulch.
Thanks for all the advise.
Jack

Just thought I'd provide an update. Of the 3 trees I planted, 2 are doing pretty well. The third cracked at the root ball during shipping. I went ahead an planted it any way, just in case, but as expected, it did not survive. Here are the other two as of last weekend:

They were planted about 6 months ago. Other than watering, all I've done was to add fertilizer spikes in July.
Thanks,
Jack

It was a long weekend and I got a lot of work done at the farm. One of the tasks I got accomplished was planting 4 more Jujube trees. We now have a total of 6 which should be enough to assess performance over the next couple years.
I got these trees from justfruitsandexotics in Florida because they were the only nursery I could find that grows Tigertooth jujube on their own rootstock. The trees I received this year were much larger than those I received last year. This is probably because I got my order in much earlier.
I just wanted to thank the guys who recommended Watersorb. It was amazing. I dumped about 1 cap full into each hole as I back-filled and mixed it in. I was worried that it might not be enough but the folks who recommended it said a little goes a long way. Well, I really found that out when I mixed the slurry. I put 3 cap fulls into a 5 gal bucket and added about 3 gal of water. I could not believe how thick that mixture was.
The trees came with a small root ball that would easily fit into my bucket. I opened up the roots as much as possible and dunked the root ball into bucket and let it sit for a minute before planting. I had to keep adding water between trees to thin the mixture.
I got all four trees planted and the cages built but I still have some top mulching left to do next weekend. I took the Ooze Tubes from the established trees from last year's plant and re-used them on the new trees. I have one more on order since I had one replacement tree.
I'll try to take some pictures next weekend when I finish up.
Thanks,
Jack

Mound up your dirt around your newly planted tree and then take a 5 gallon plastic bucket and drive an 8 or 10 penny nail in the bottom around the edge at the base. Fill it once a week put in inside your mounded area and let it slowly drain and thus water your tree. Been doing that for years even thought I have 6 apple trees with in 40 feet of a hydrant near my barn. The slow drain allows the water to seep into the ground under the mulch.

Jack,
Those are an interesting idea, i might have to give one or two a try. How much growth did yours put on the first year? Any idea how many years till they start producing fruit? Thanks

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Originally Posted by bohunter
Mound up your dirt around your newly planted tree and then take a 5 gallon plastic bucket and drive an 8 or 10 penny nail in the bottom around the edge at the base. Fill it once a week put in inside your mounded area and let it slowly drain and thus water your tree. Been doing that for years even thought I have 6 apple trees with in 40 feet of a hydrant near my barn. The slow drain allows the water to seep into the ground under the mulch.
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Good idea! My first crack at a watering scheme last year was to place a soaker hose around the base of the tree under the mulch. I was going to attach it to a 5 gal bucket, but when I asked around, guys said that gravity was not enough to make it work (unlike your method). So, I tried the Ooze Tubes that you see in the picture. They worked great and were only about $12 each and I'm now re-using them for a second year.
I use a 55 gal Fimco sprayer to fill the Ooze tubes. I took off the sprayer wand and put a male hose connector on the end of the hand wand hose. I used small sections of plastic tube with female hose connectors to go from my cages to the ooze tube so I don't have to open the cage to fill them. We had a real dry spell and I wanted to make sure the trees got enough water, so in addition to filling the tube, I hooked the sprayer to the soaker hose. The pto generated enough pressure to get the soaker hoses to work great under the mulch and that keeps the water from evaporating as quickly.
Thanks,
jack

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by johnrpb
Jack,
Those are an interesting idea, i might have to give one or two a try. How much growth did yours put on the first year? Any idea how many years till they start producing fruit? Thanks
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Johnrpb,
The trees they shipped the first year were pretty small. I'd say I got about 18&quot; of vertical growth in the first year. If you scroll up through the thread you can see pictures when planted and then in August which is about the end of our growing season. We have pretty poor soil (Virginia clay).
Credit for the idea for these goes to a Quality Whitetails article I read on them. I had a follow-up email conversation with one of the authors, Dave Osborne who was very helpful. They are supposed to begin producing fruit in 2 or 3 years and produce volumes similar to domestic apples with none of the maintenance. Other than watering for the first year, they are supposed to be maintenance free. With most varieties, you have to keep the area mowed because they can propagate by root and you can get a thicket of unproductive trees because they are grown on a rootstock that does not produce much fruit. I picked this variety because it was grown on it's own rootstock and so if it propagates by root, it should produce the same tree as the parent.
If you're interested, I'd suggest you read the QW article as a starting point. I'll keep posting my experience with them as we go forward.
Thanks,
Jack

Jack,
That's seems like decent growth for their first year. I've enjoyed following this thread and your other ones on the quantico boards.
I did some googling and I think this is the article you were referring too.
http://www.afoa.org/PDF/CI1101f.pdf
I highly recommend it to everyone who hasnt already read it. I thought the charts comparing the wet weight production potential vs Dry Weight production potential were very informative and eye opening.
Looks like I'm going to be placing another tree order this year.
Thanks for the information

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Originally Posted by johnrpb
Jack,
That's seems like decent growth for their first year. I've enjoyed following this thread and your other ones on the quantico boards.
I did some googling and I think this is the article you were referring too.
http://www.afoa.org/PDF/CI1101f.pdf
I highly recommend it to everyone who hasnt already read it. I thought the charts comparing the wet weight production potential vs Dry Weight production potential were very informative and eye opening.
Looks like I'm going to be placing another tree order this year.
Thanks for the information
==================================
No. That is a good article as well, but the one I was referring to is specifically aimed a the Jujube. It is &quot;Meet the Jujube&quot; by David Osborne and Dr. Karl V. Miller in the December 2009 (16-6) issue.
Thanks,
Jack

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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
It was a long weekend and I got a lot of work done at the farm. One of the tasks I got accomplished was planting 4 more Jujube trees. We now have a total of 6 which should be enough to assess performance over the next couple years.
I got these trees from justfruitsandexotics in Florida because they were the only nursery I could find that grows Tigertooth jujube on their own rootstock. The trees I received this year were much larger than those I received last year. This is probably because I got my order in much earlier.
I just wanted to thank the guys who recommended Watersorb. It was amazing. I dumped about 1 cap full into each hole as I back-filled and mixed it in. I was worried that it might not be enough but the folks who recommended it said a little goes a long way. Well, I really found that out when I mixed the slurry. I put 3 cap fulls into a 5 gal bucket and added about 3 gal of water. I could not believe how thick that mixture was.
The trees came with a small root ball that would easily fit into my bucket. I opened up the roots as much as possible and dunked the root ball into bucket and let it sit for a minute before planting. I had to keep adding water between trees to thin the mixture.
I got all four trees planted and the cages built but I still have some top mulching left to do next weekend. I took the Ooze Tubes from the established trees from last year's plant and re-used them on the new trees. I have one more on order since I had one replacement tree.
I'll try to take some pictures next weekend when I finish up.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
Jack... really glad you tried the terra sorb/water keep product for your plantings. I think you will be really surprised on how well it does for you. I am a firm believer in that stuff. It's truly amazing what it can do. I am now anxious to see the results of it in the future.
I can tell you from my trees you can see the difference in the one tree I forgot to put water keep on. Glad you tried it!

Yes, the one I ended up with was Novo-Tech WaterKeep. I paid $35 with shipping for 5 lbs. While I can't attest to the impact it has on my trees yet, it certainly grabs water! I think that 5 lb jug will last me for a lifetime of tree planting.

Here is the pic I promised.

I'll try to take another in Aug or early Sept.

Jack
Your thread inspired me to order 6 jujubes and watersorb. I'll be planting later this week...
-fsh

Good Luck! Post some Pics!

Jack
Pics as requested. I planted 6 GA-866 jujubies from EFN today, using a watersorb dip and adding the dry polymer to the backfill as advised.
Not much to look at (yet (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)), the trees were planted btw a woodline and a row of chestnuts with a sw exposure. Nice trees from EF, 4 to 5 feet tall, and well protected. ($$, but I was satisfied with the quality). I'll cage them this weekend.
-fsh

Outstanding! Keep them watered the first year and I believe that is a grafted variety. You will need to keep it bushhogged around them (doesn't look like a problem with your planting location) to keep poor quality trees from propagating from the root system as they get older.

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Originally Posted by fshafly2
Jack
Pics as requested. I planted 6 GA-866 jujubies from EFN today, using a watersorb dip and adding the dry polymer to the backfill as advised.
Not much to look at (yet (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)), the trees were planted btw a woodline and a row of chestnuts with a sw exposure. Nice trees from EF, 4 to 5 feet tall, and well protected. ($$, but I was satisfied with the quality). I'll cage them this weekend.
-fsh
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I'm really digging those pictures. Looks like a really nice secluded spot.
Here is where I decided to plant my orchard. Not jjb's but I did order 5 pears and 2 dolgo crabs from Edward Fort. Can't wait to plant them in a few more weeks!!

 

[yoderjac]

I wish I could figure out a way to plant with photoshop (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Seriously, it looks like a nice location. Good luck!
I haven't taken any pictures yet, but my buddies just finished planting 5 pear trees next to one of our plots.

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Originally Posted by &lt;*)))&gt;&lt;(
I'm really digging those pictures. Looks like a really nice secluded spot.
Here is where I decided to plant my orchard. Not jjb's but I did order 5 pears and 2 dolgo crabs from Edward Fort. Can't wait to plant them in a few more weeks!!

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Not sure if there is enough sun there to grow fruit. Looks like a north exposure?

maybe a little further up the hill when that exisiting tree line puts on leaves that spot will be partial shaded, Looks like a great spot though! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Maybe I should move them up on the hill a little more, but it's a little steeper there than it looks. I am also planning on cutting down that little clump of trees.

Here is another view looking down from the top.

Sorry for slightly derailing the thread.
Dale

Speaking of de-railing, anyone think they know of the most, or more affordable places to order any of the WaterSorb (polymer) type products.
I am going to need to order and have some shipped in a hurry, if I am going to get to use any at all. Got a quick project that has sprung up...
(Seriously, when people want something done, they always seem to want it &quot;right now&quot;, rather than &quot;done right&quot;. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by CaveCreek
Speaking of de-railing, anyone think they know of the most, or more affordable places to order any of the WaterSorb (polymer) type products.
I am going to need to order and have some shipped in a hurry, if I am going to get to use any at all. Got a quick project that has sprung up...
(Seriously, when people want something done, they always seem to want it &quot;right now&quot;, rather than &quot;done right&quot;. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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I orderd mine directly from Novo-Tech <http://www.water-keep.com/
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by &lt;*)))&gt;&lt;(
Maybe I should move them up on the hill a little more, but it's a little steeper there than it looks. I am also planning on cutting down that little clump of trees.
Sorry for slightly derailing the thread.
Dale
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From experience, definitely move them up the hill. Of course the sun angle will be higher during the growing season, but just to be on the safe side.

did anyone mention how much to use per planting? i may have overlooked it.

or which size?

 

[yoderjac]

There is advice from others further up in the thread. Here is what I did:
1) I bought 5 lbs of Fine 0mm-.2mm
2) I used the cap from the jug rather than actually measuring.
3) I added 3 cap-fulls to a 5 gal bucket and then added 3 gal of water and stirred. That was too much and I had to add more water as I went to think the slurry. If I had to do it again, I'd start with 2 cap-fulls.
4) As I backed-filled the hole up to planting level with a mix of native soil, topsoil, peat moss, etc, I added 1 cap full.
5) The pears we planted were bare root. We just soaked them in the slurry while we were digging the holes and such. When we were ready to plant them, I pulled them from the bucket and dumped the left-over slurry into the planting holes.
5) The Jujube had small root balls. When I was ready to plant each tree, I opened up the root ball as much as possible and dunked it in the slurry. I held it there (so the slurry didn't touch the trunk) long enough to let the slurry adhere to the roots as much as possible. After dunking the last tree, I poured the left over slurry into the last hole before planting that last tree.
Thanks,
jack

i'm going to plant some apple trees tomorrow and i'm looking around in my seed boxes and i find a bag of
Hunters Specialties
Vita Rack
Moisture Trap
is this a polymer you guys are talking about? you spread this over a foodplot and it holds water in the ground.
just so you know, i DID NOT buy this(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) someone gave it to me.
i don't fall for all the gimmics!

Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigmike
i'm going to plant some apple trees tomorrow and i'm looking around in my seed boxes and i find a bag of
Hunters Specialties
Vita Rack
Moisture Trap
is this a polymer you guys are talking about? you spread this over a foodplot and it holds water in the ground.
just so you know, i DID NOT buy this(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) someone gave it to me.
i don't fall for all the gimmics!
==================================
It's similar, but different (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Moisture trap is a sprayable polymer. You mix it with water and apply with a sprayer. It is relatively short lived stuff. Reapplication every few weeks is required.
The stuff that Jack and others are talking about is applied either dry in powder or granular form. It can also be used to create a thick slurry for dipping roots into prior to planting. When incorporated into the soil it will last for a good number of years. When exposed to UV rays, it will break down much more quickly

i would certainly be able to use this though yes? just incorporate it into the soil as i fill the hole back up?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigmike
i would certainly be able to use this though yes? just incorporate it into the soil as i fill the hole back up?
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If you're looking to get rid of it, it certainly isn't going to hurt anything. However, you will not get the same type of benefit or results using it as you would using waterkeep, watersorb, hortasorb, etc.
The moisture keep is really more like a surfactant than a water absorbing polymer.

This page should more clearly explain these products
http://www.americansoiltech.com/faq/index.asp#77
Stockosorb is much like waterkeep, hortasorb, etc. You can get it in powder, small, or large size (like small rock salt) particles. I incorporated 50 lbs. of Stockosorb on a one acre food plot.
Stockopam is like Moisture Keep. In fact, companies like HS just make deals with suppliers to get the product repackaged under their name. Crank the prices up about 200% and sell it to us (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
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Originally Posted by smsmith
This page should more clearly explain these products
http://www.americansoiltech.com/faq/index.asp#77
Stockosorb is much like waterkeep, hortasorb, etc. You can get it in powder, small, or large size (like small rock salt) particles. I incorporated 50 lbs. of Stockosorb on a one acre food plot.
Stockopam is like Moisture Keep. In fact, companies like HS just make deals with suppliers to get the product repackaged under their name. Crank the prices up about 200% and sell it to us (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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How did that acre turn out?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by sandbur
How did that acre turn out?
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I didn't apply it scientifically (with an untreated control) so I can't state factually that it had the desired impact.
Anecdotally on the other hand..........I am 100% convinced the stuff makes a big difference. My plot didn't burn out....and that's on some sandy, sandy soil. I think where the stuff really shows its worth is during a 10 day to 2 week dry spell. The plants have a &quot;buffer&quot; thanks to the polymer. Much more drought than that though and they'll get burned up (on sand anyway).
I applied the 50 lbs. of Stockosorb 2 years ago (large size particles). Last year I applied 50 lbs. of Agriblend. That product is smaller sized particles with zeolites added. Zeolites are basically a form of humite. Interesting reading/research out there on zeolites. Mainly out west.
This year I don't think I'll be adding any more. The stuff isn't cheap and I'm in the process of re-establishing how money comes in and goes out. Once I get a handle on my new budget, then maybe I'll go back to applying some every year.
I would give both products a + rating

Guys this is officially my first post as a new member of the QDMA Forum and I have to say I'm thoroughly impressed with this thread which is the first I have read completely since joining! Lots of great information here! For the record I searched online for polymer water absorbing crystals and <http://water-keep.com/ has the best price even beating out prices on Ebay. There are a lot of places that sell these crystals but Water Keep has the best price. I plan on ordering some for the next set of trees I plant next winter as long as my attempts to grow them from seed goes well!

Jack
How are these doing?

Mike,
I'm a bit ambivalent at this point. The bad news is that I now realize that I got very small trees in the first year. I think this was due to how late I put my order in. I ordered 3 more trees this year plus the replacement tree for the one that died last year. All of this years trees were huge compared to the ones we got last year. I planted them all and they all took well. You can find details with pictures in May here: <http://www.qrgc-forums.org/QRGC_Foru...-for-Deer.aspx
My hope was that I would see the first fruit on the two year old trees this year. There is no sign of that and, in fact, the new trees I planted this year are just as big as the 2 year old trees. If I had planted trees like this last year, I would have had a much better chance of fruiting.
The good news is that all trees seem to have established and are growing well (given our poor soil).
At this point, I'm reserving judgement...It is watch and wait time...

 

[yoderjac]

I see your avitar is a bear. Did that picture come from your property?

Yep. We get a few pictures every year. Here is the latest:

<font size="4">Well, the weeds were starting to take over my Jujube trees, so I decided to weed them and put down some landscape fabric. Since they are all established, I removed the ooze tubes. Here are the pictures as of June 2012:

They are still not producing fruit, but maybe this will be the year!</font>

Additional Pics:

Thanks,
Jack

I thought it might be time to resurrect this old thread. I think it might be time to enter the next phase. I mowed the field the Jujube trees today. I check the trees and the tigertooth seem to have tiny fruit beginning to form. When I say tiny, I mean I wish I had my reading glasses with me to be sure. In a couple weeks, I should know one way or the other fur sure.
The next phase of this project will be to see how my deer relate to this fruit.
Here is an update on my Jujube status in general:
One of my trees was severely set back and almost died after it caught a snoot full of gly when a wind gust hit while I was spraying the field. After a year or two of recovery, it was alive and growing but obviously stunted.
While Tigertooth are supposed to be self-fertile, I was concerned that it was taking so long for the trees to fruit. So, I cut down the stunted tree last spring and one of my other smaller trees and grafted them. I grafted Silverhill to the stunted one with a whip and tongue graft. The second tree was larger in diameter, so I bark grafted Redlands #4 to it. There is some controversy as to whether Tigertooth and Silverhill are distinct varieties or just different names for the same variety. David Osborn asked on of his distributor contacts who swears they are distinct varieties. My guess is that the fact that my Tigertooth fruited this year is just coincidental but who knows.
I have also been taking root cutting from these trees and trying to propagate them. I have so far been growing the propagated trees in rootmakers and then bench grafting them with other varieties when they get large enough.
Of the three I bench grafted this spring, only one took. It is admiral Wilkes and it is already producing fruit in the 3 gal RB2 container at less than 1 foot tall. I will plant it at the farm this fall with the others when it goes dormant. It will be the first propagated Jujube to get planted at the farm. The other two bench grafting attempts were Shanxi LI and Globe. The Shanxi LI never even leafed out, but the rootstock was younger (1 season not two) and pretty small in diameter. That rootstock completely died. The Globe initially leafed out with the energy in the scion but wilted and died. The rootstock put out growth below the graft, and I let that grow for a couple months to re-energize the rootstock. I then cut the scion below the growth and attempted another graft. This time I used a Redlands #4. It has now leafed out and time will tell if it survives and grows. If so, I will be planting it in the field this fall as well.
I also started more tigertooth from root cuttings this year again. Because of the good grafting success I had in the field compared to bench grafting Jujube, I'm thinking of planting them as well in the field this fall and then waiting until they are large enough to bark graft to add different varieties.
If and when the fielded tree fruits get large enough to show up, I'll take some pictures.
Thanks,
Jack

I'm at the farm today and happened to go to the field with the Jujubes. I check them and found a few fruits that are now large enough to take a picture of:

It was small enough that I drew and arrow on the picture pointing to the fruit starting in the upper right.

Great job. I am glad you resurrected the thread to show results from earlier work. I hope to be able to do that one of these days.
Neat that the tree could grow an arrow in just the right place to show the fruit!

fruits of your labor!
good job--very satisfying i am sure.
todd

Yes, if you go back to the beginning you see I planted the first tree in 2010. Although I didn't realize it at the time, I ordered these trees late and I think I got the runts that were leftover. One of those trees died and was replaced in 2011. I ordered 3 more trees in 2011 and placed the order earlier. I got much larger trees. It is the 2011 trees that are producing fruit this year.
The two 2010 trees that didn't die, were slow growers. One got a whiff of gly and was stunted after that. So, when I decided to play with other varieties, these are the two that I cut down last year and grafted. I think their growth has accelerated since I grafted them, but I'm sure I wont' see fruit this year since I just grafted them last spring.

 

[yoderjac]

Is that a bunch of tiny fruit on the horizontal limb just below the butt of the arrow?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gator
Is that a bunch of tiny fruit on the horizontal limb just below the butt of the arrow?
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Gator,
The fruit is just beginning to form. On the trees that are in containers that have previously produced fruit, I see a lot of those little nodules. Only some of them make it to fruit. Once I see the characteristic shape forming, it seems they form fruit. On that branch, it looks like at least one of them has that fruit shape. The rest may become fruit or may abort. It will be at least another month before I can tell how much fruit each tree will produce. I'm just excited that the trees are forming their first fruits.
When I made the first post about seeing fruit, I did not include any pictures because the largest was like the one on the branch you point out. I didn't think folks would be able to see that on the picture. The one in the picture I posted yesterday is large enough for folks to easily identify as a fruit.
I'll follow up with more pictures later when it is clear how much fruit they are producing.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
<u>fruits</u> of your labor!
good job--very satisfying i am sure.
todd
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Well, before I start beating by drum, I want to get through stage 2 of the experiment, figuring out how my deer will react to them. David Osborn who was one of the authors of the original QW article that inspired this assures me that deer love them.
However, I've been around the block enough times to know that there are a lot of regional differences. It sometimes takes deer quite a while to realize a new food source is valuable. It took my deer a number of years and hard winters to figure out that PTT tubers are a good food source. In that case, there were acres of food available. Even if these trees produce prolifically this year, there are only 4 trees. That is not a huge volume of food.
Will the relative small volume mean it takes more time for deer to use them or will the attractiveness of the fruit be enough offset the lack of volume.
I will say that the long-term goal is to have good volumes of low maintenance trees that produce reliable heavy crops of attractive deer food.
I'm happy with the maintenance level. So far, we have had cicadas one year that didn't hurt them compared to my other trees. Japanese beetles are on them but don't seem to be hurting them much. I have not sprayed them. They are hurting my chestnuts much more than the Jujube. Fruit in 4 years after planting is almost as good as persimmons showing first fruit in the third leaf after grafting.
The only downside I've seen so far is that they are difficult to propagate.
By the way, we planted some keiffer pear trees the same spring I planted these Jujube. They pears have dwarfed the Jujube in terms of vegetative growth. They are close to 20' tall and some have the caliper of my forearm already. However, we have no pears yet. Maybe next year for those.
I'm encouraged for sure, but I'll leave the drum beating to others...(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Thanks,
Jack

Ok Jack. Take a bite of a raw turnip then eat a ripe jujube. If I was starving I would eat a raw turnip (which is usually the only time my deer will actually eat the tubor) but even if I am not hungry I will eat a delicious ripe fruit(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
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Originally Posted by dogdoc
Ok Jack. Take a bite of a raw turnip then eat a ripe jujube. If I was starving I would eat a raw turnip (which is usually the only time my deer will actually eat the tubor) but even if I am not hungry I will eat a delicious ripe fruit(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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True but deer love acorns and I'll generally pass. Attractiveness to humans is largely taste driven. I'm not sure that is true with deer, but if it is, they have very different taste than we do.
I agree in general that deer lover most fruit. I just don't have enough experience with Jujube yet to see where it fits on their preference scale and I'm not sure my deer have enough experience yet either.

 

[yoderjac]

END OF TRANSFER FROM QDMA FORUMS

 

[yoderjac]

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