Persimmon Seedlings -- Where to Put Them / How To Arrange Them?

[bigbendmarine]

LOVE to get feedback from forum members who are growing persimmons on where to plant about a dozen seedlings I've got growing in tall pots right now.

Probably best to start with the current layout of tree plantings and plot locations.

Here's a picture that shows where I planted trees five or so years ago. Being honest, and to help understand why I laid it out the way I did, when I planted them I did so with less mind on hunting than simply viewing wildlife from my house. As it's a bit hard to read the yellow dots are all sawtooth oaks, blue dots are keiffer pears, red dots lining road to pond are crabapples, dark green dots are chinese chestnuts, and orange dots are pecans (hopefully will eat some of those myself!).



Tree plantings are mostly "interior" / bit closer to the house than my plots which I tried to put along the outer edge of my fields to maximize distance from my home / give deer as much out-of-sight sense of security as possible. Picture below shows outlines of planted plot spots. I generally hunt the ones furthest north / along the woodline that leads to the pond as deer tend to move north-to-south in the evenings, leaving the surrounding woods into the northern field edges near dusk then moving into the most southern fields with the pecans trees later in the night. The arrows represent the general direction the deer move from late afternoon to dark.



All the above shared, I've got persimmon seedlings about 2' tall I'd like to get planted / protected before they bud out but wonder where best to put them / how best to arrange them so that they compliment (if possible) what I've already planted?

In some ways it's tempting to plant them in the southern corners as they're the most open / kind of barren feeling spots I've got right now BUT I'm a bit concerned about purposefully stacking up deer closer to the highway (can see portion at bottom) and I wouldn't want to change the flow of traffic that has them coming into the most northern spots first.

Welcome ANY feedback on where to plant / how to arrange, even if it's critical of what I've already laid-out.

 

[bigbendmarine]

Bumping the thread... and SERIOUS when say anyone wants to tell me I've screwed up with past plantings that it won't hurt my feelings even an iota. FULLY appreciate that like Forrest Gump, sometimes "I'm not a very smart man!" (admittedly a jarhead after all... ).

Semi-joking aside LOVE to hear where ANYONE would recommend sticking the dozen persimmons or so in the ground and what arrangement (spacing for pollination?, ability to work ground around, etc). ANY / ALL words of wisdom shared from y'all who've planted them will be MUCH appreciated!

 

[Native Hunter]

Persimmons get really big, given enough time, so don't underestimate their ultimate size. However, it won't hurt anything to crowd them a little. If you planted them 20 feet apart, they would eventually grow together, but they would still produce well. They can take quite a bit of shade and still make fruit, but more sunlight will mean heavier fruiting. My 12 or 13 year old seedlings are beginning to fruit well. Some of them are about 18 - 20 feet tall.

Pollination doesn't seem to be a critical factor with persimmons, so don't worry to much about that. In fact, it is a proven fact that 90 chromosome persimmons can set fruit parthenocarpically. I suspect that 60 and 30 chromosome trees could to, but I can't say so with certainty.

As far as working the ground around them, as they grow, they will shed their bottom limbs. I just train and cage them like I do apple trees. They will generally make a central leader without you having to do anything, but I have seen some wild tree that formed a double leader - usually due to some type of damage.

Persimmons are easy to grow. No spraying and no problems.

Yes, I would be concerned about stacking deer near a highway, and once you start getting fruit, the deer will flock to your trees. So that is a concern.

I hope this helps and best wishes.

 

[Belchertown Bowman]

Nice property!

 

[ChadS]

Don't mean to hi jack this thread, move it if necessary.
I am in Western New York about 4-5 miles from the shores of Lake Ontario. I am in Apple Country. I was wondering if any of you think I would be able to grow Persimmons??
I am letting 15 acres of Ag field revert back to nature. I have a few areas I am going to keep mowed and keep some sort of clover plot going, and want to sprinkle in some "Food Plot" trees. I put some Crab Apples in last year, and am looking at the Deer Candy Persimmons for this year.
Let me know what you think.

Thanks

 

[Belchertown Bowman]

I was told here in Massachusetts you can grow em,.. but they barely grow, hardly produce, and high failure rates in harsh winters.

They are native up to Connecticut,.. but not up in Ma.

Try the Dr. Deer Pear trees or other more hardy stuff?

Although harsh winters seem to becoming a thing of the past?

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/fruits/persimmon/growing-persimmon-trees.htm

.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't have a specific recommendation for location on your place but I have some general thoughts I can share. I've got lots of native trees growing on my place. Those not producing I've cut down and grafted over. I find they are slow growers and don't compete well with many trees. The do best in the open. You didn't mention the specific of the seedlings. I'm presuming they are American. There are northern and southern strains that have different numbers of chromosomes. Most of the named varieties are northern strain. They tend to be larger fruit. I don't know how well northern strains will do in the south. I'm not saying they won't do well, I just don't know. The southern strain should do fine.

I got some of my scions from an old doctor who lives in the south. He has been grafting persimmons for wildlife since he was young. He finds that a clump of persimmon trees in a green field will increase the use of that field during daylight hours. So, I would lean toward planting them in clumps in an open field as opposed to field edges. Most of mine are on field edges because most of our larger fields are on a pipeline where we can't plant trees. So, many of our native persimmons grow in that edge of the pipeline. If I had larger fields that I could plant persimmon clumps in, I would.

One more consideration is drop time. I don't yet know how much of that is related to the location and conditions versus the genetics of the tree. There is a very large range of drop times. I'm trying to actually use them as a food source for deer by using a variety of scions from multiple trees with known drop times so I can cover Sep thru Feb. If you have all the same variety and they you know when they drop, that might play into your planting location. It may matter if you are using a bow, muzzleloader, or rifle. There may also be changes in your access routes to stands during different times of the season that could play into planting locations.

Those are my general thoughts for what they are worth.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[bigbendmarine]

Yoderjac, seedlings were grown from scat-salvaged seeds so definitely from wild-growing American (Diospyros virginiana) and NOT any named variety. On a side note, I've got four healthy oriental non-astrigents growing as well, but inside my inner-fenced yard so that my family can enjoy them -- wife absolutely loves them / they're her favorite fruit.

I've got a number of wild ones already growing on my place (thus the scat) but not a ton of them, and they're mostly buried in wooded areas I'm not hunting / treat as sanctuary.

Know I'll have to sex the seedlings once they get a bit older and top work them if the prove male. If you see this follow-up message, Yoderjac, one follow-up question I'll ask is what age / general height your trees have been when you've been able to sex them, as well as start grafting them?

AND AGAIN, MUCH appreciate the input from all who've chimed in! Think I'll avoid putting them in the fields too near the highway and the fields that the deer use mostly at night, and instead maybe focus on putting a few in my plots closest to my pond / woods that the deer already use for late afternoon staging.

 

[yoderjac]

It takes way to long for me to sex native trees. I don't do that any more. If I find a large tree, multiple inches in diameter, I will try to sex it, but not smaller trees. As soon as they hit an inch in diameter, I bark graft them. Seedlings will spend most of their energy in vegetative growth. Over time, once very well established, there are hormonal changes in the tree that causes them to move to a fruiting state adn vegetative growth is reduced.

I get persimmons faster if I cut down a 1" diameter seedling and bark graft it with a scion from a mature female tree. I typically get my first fruit in the 3rd leaf after grafting. Being so far south, I'd stick with scions from your native trees. I'd try to pick your best producer. They still take a long time to become big producers but it is a few years faster than waiting until my seedlings are old enough to sex. The only way I know to sex them, short of a lab, is the flowers. By the time my trees flower, they can be quite large.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[OakSeeds]

Very nice layout. If it were me, I'd be tempted to plant a bunch of them in the area north of the house ... you appear to have sufficient room up around the pears / crab apple trees to plant a dozen or more (you'll have a fruit basket special). A blind/stand at the edge of the woods - above the last e in Keiffer - should allow you to enjoy some great afternoon hunts, especially when your trees beginning with a P are still throwing fruit later in the season.

 

[Troubles Trees]

Don't mean to hi jack this thread, move it if necessary.
I am in Western New York about 4-5 miles from the shores of Lake Ontario. I am in Apple Country. I was wondering if any of you think I would be able to grow Persimmons??
I am letting 15 acres of Ag field revert back to nature. I have a few areas I am going to keep mowed and keep some sort of clover plot going, and want to sprinkle in some "Food Plot" trees. I put some Crab Apples in last year, and am looking at the Deer Candy Persimmons for this year.
Let me know what you think.

Thanks

I live in Cortland County NY and planted 20 Persimmons in 2018. I know that's not much of a time span yet but trees are most fragile when they are young and these survived through last winter without any losses. This winter has been a long one so I will have a better idea this year when they come out of dormancy. I don't recall the source I used but if memory serves it was from Pikes Peak Nursery in PA, unfortunately they are sold out already.