Persimmon question

[BrushyPines]

Just a question out of curiosity. I have 2 different sets of persimmons I purchased from the same local nursery. 1 set around 3 years ago and 1 set a year ago, both are american persimmons. The first set have been in the ground for 2 years and are super late to leaf out (still silver tipped as of yesterday), they've always been super late since I've purchased them and the 2nd set were planted this past fall and have already leafed out (have been leafed out for at least a week, maybe 2). My question is, are there different types of american persimmons? If so, which types leaf out early and late? I am located in north Mississippi.

 

[yoderjac]

There are a wide variety of American persimmons. There are two major strains, northern and southern. Many of the named varieties are northern strain and most were attempts to commercialize persimmons. So, most of them drop fairly early. Native persimmons are all over the place. I've traded scions with folks and bark grafted my native trees. https://habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/sex-change-operation-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5547/

Here is another tread with some good info on persimmons for deer: https://habitat-talk.com/index.php?...ies-for-deer-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5564/

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Lucky_P]

In general, natives north of the Ohio River are the 90-chromosome strain, while south of the Ohio, they're the 60-chromosome strain.
Some 30-C in FL.
I have both 90 & 60...but haven't paid much attention to leafout...but noticed that locals (60C) are leafing now, while my grafted 90Cs are still tightly in bud

 

[BrushyPines]

In general, natives north of the Ohio River are the 90-chromosome strain, while south of the Ohio, they're the 60-chromosome strain.
Some 30-C in FL.
I have both 90 & 60...but haven't paid much attention to leafout...but noticed that locals (60C) are leafing now, while my grafted 90Cs are still tightly in bud

So do the 90's drop later than the 60's?

 

[yoderjac]

So do the 90's drop later than the 60's?

Not necessarily. The number of chromosomes don't really play into that. For some of the named varieties, the old Claypool records indicate early, mid, or late season for some of the varieties. Cliff England (England's orchard) is a good resource for drop times of the named varieties. I got scions from an old doctor in Mississippi who has been grafting persimmons his whole life. He sent me scions from trees that drop in Nov, Dec,, and Jan, later than most of the named varieties. I've got some native trees that hold in the Feb some years. There is no formula. Basically a particular variety tends to roughly at the same time, but weather conditions can move that quite a bit from year to year.

THanks,

Jack

 

[BrushyPines]

Not necessarily. The number of chromosomes don't really play into that. For some of the named varieties, the old Claypool records indicate early, mid, or late season for some of the varieties. Cliff England (England's orchard) is a good resource for drop times of the named varieties. I got scions from an old doctor in Mississippi who has been grafting persimmons his whole life. He sent me scions from trees that drop in Nov, Dec,, and Jan, later than most of the named varieties. I've got some native trees that hold in the Feb some years. There is no formula. Basically a particular variety tends to roughly at the same time, but weather conditions can move that quite a bit from year to year.

THanks,

Jack

Just wish I knew what varieties these are. Only thing the nursery knew were that they are american persimmon.

 

[Lucky_P]

What Jack said.
I've sent scions to Dr. Dahlke of some late hanging (Dec/Jan) KY persimmons, years ago, but didnt hear from him as to how they performed in MS.

NC-10, a 90, is my earliest here...usually dropping ripe fruits by 10 Sept. There's a native, presumably a 60, at the end of a neighbor's driveway that will still have some hanging at Christmas.

 

[yoderjac]

Just wish I knew what varieties these are. Only thing the nursery knew were that they are american persimmon.

Are they grafted? If not, they may not even be female.

 

[BrushyPines]

Are they grafted? If not, they may not even be female.

Majority of them are not grafted. I have 2 that are, but did not come from this local nursery. I have 10 total that came from the local nursery, so it's a wait and see game on how many are females.

 

[yoderjac]

I'd suggest bark grafting them to the varieties you want when they hit about 1" in diameter. If you are not in an area that has native persimmons, you may want to keep one male. Seedling trees can take 8 to 10 or more years to flower.

 

[BrushyPines]

I'd suggest bark grafting them to the varieties you want when they hit about 1" in diameter. If you are not in an area that has native persimmons, you may want to keep one male. Seedling trees can take 8 to 10 or more years to flower.

The trees were at least 6 feet tall when we purchased them. I'm not sure how old they are though. First set are around 8 feet tall now and the second set are 6-7 feet tall.

 

[yoderjac]

The trees were at least 6 feet tall when we purchased them. I'm not sure how old they are though. First set are around 8 feet tall now and the second set are 6-7 feet tall.

I've started persimmons in rootmakers and had about 4' trees in one growing season. I've had chestnuts over 6' in one growing season. Height is not a very good judge of age.

 

[Charles Clear]

I don't want to Hijack this thread, but I read that the Szukis persimmon can produce male and female flowers and can pollinate other persimmon trees. Have any experience with Szukis, Jack?

Diospyros virginiana, 'Szukis' American Persimmon

Diospyros virginiana 'Szukis' Variety description: This cultivar is a seedling of 'Early Golden,' one of the first American persimmons selected from the wild for cultivation. It will produce both male and female flowers, so it will pollinate other trees, as well as produce fruit as a single...

www.treepeony.com

 

[yoderjac]

I don't want to Hijack this thread, but I read that the Szukis persimmon can produce male and female flowers and can pollinate other persimmon trees. Have any experience with Szukis, Jack?

Diospyros virginiana, 'Szukis' American Persimmon

Diospyros virginiana 'Szukis' Variety description: This cultivar is a seedling of 'Early Golden,' one of the first American persimmons selected from the wild for cultivation. It will produce both male and female flowers, so it will pollinate other trees, as well as produce fruit as a single...

www.treepeony.com

That is true for any variety. They call them perfect trees and they have both male and female branches. They are rare. I have a bunch of Szukis. It seems to do well with my native trees and climate. I think we encounter "degrees of incompatibility" when we graft persimmons. I've grafted all kinds of scions to my native trees, both named and traded native scions. I find that every variety I've tried will take and grow, but some varieties seem to flourish and others lag. The reason I speculate that it is a level of incompatibility is that I haven't found any scion that does better with my native trees than a scion from another native tree. I did a lot of native grafting early when I was converting male trees to female. I just used scions from my female trees. Those trees are significantly larger than the other varieties I've grafted. They all produce persimmons.

As for pollination, if you are in the native range of persimmons, you don't have to worry much. Persimmons are primarily insect pollinated and the male tree can be a mile or more away. If you are in an area outside the native range or are concerned about pollination, here is what I would do. I would bark graft all my trees to the varieties I want. When you bark graft, it is important to go back each week and remove water sprouts below the graft. I would graft and chest height. Once my graft took and was growing well, I would select one water sprout and let it grow. You don't want it to outgrow you scion and become the central leader. I would just trim it back pruning above a good outward facing bud. If you do this with all your trees, you should have plenty of male flowers. Supposedly one would expect a 50/50 male to female ratio, but I don't find that on my place. We have many more male trees that female. So, statistically, many of those water sprout branches will turn out to be male. Also, if some turn out to be female and fruit, if you like the characteristics, you can take a scion off that branch and bark graft another tree.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

Quote from the University of Kentucky College of Agriculture relative to persimmon pollination:

"Most of the named varieties are of the 90-chromosome type that set fruit parthenocarpically, without pollination. Thus pollination is not necessary for the 90-chromosome type and fruit are easier to process with few or no seeds."

https://www.uky.edu/ccd/sites/www.uky.edu.ccd/files/persimmon.pdf

I suspect that the same is true for 60 C, but that no one has taken the time to prove it.

 

[Charles Clear]

Great info thank you both!

 

[yoderjac]

Quote from the University of Kentucky College of Agriculture relative to persimmon pollination:

"Most of the named varieties are of the 90-chromosome type that set fruit parthenocarpically, without pollination. Thus pollination is not necessary for the 90-chromosome type and fruit are easier to process with few or no seeds."

https://www.uky.edu/ccd/sites/www.uky.edu.ccd/files/persimmon.pdf

I suspect that the same is true for 60 C, but that no one has taken the time to prove it.

I don't think that means no pollen is involved. I think it means that the pollen that triggers fruiting is unable to actually fertilize and produce viable seed. One great example is that the pollen from 60 c trees triggers seedless fruit in 90 c trees.. My understanding, is that the pollen has the physical characteristics necessary to make the flower "think" it has been pollinated. However the pollen from 60 c trees is not compatible at a DNA level so fertilization never occurs. That is why you get fruit but no seeds.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

I don't think that means no pollen is involved. I think it means that the pollen that triggers fruiting is unable to actually fertilize and produce viable seed. One great example is that the pollen from 60 c trees triggers seedless fruit in 90 c trees.. My understanding, is that the pollen has the physical characteristics necessary to make the flower "think" it has been pollinated. However the pollen from 60 c trees is not compatible at a DNA level so fertilization never occurs. That is why you get fruit but no seeds.

Thanks,

Jack

And, I don't think I said there wasn't any "pollen involved......................."

 

[yoderjac]

And, I don't think I said there wasn't any "pollen involved......................."

Yes, you did not. I was just clarifying for folks who are planning. It is easy for a layman to see that article and think they don't need male trees in the area.

 

[Native Hunter]

Yes, you did not. I was just clarifying for folks who are planning. It is easy for a layman to see that article and think they don't need male trees in the area.

You might want to be clearer on things like that in the future. You were quoting my post, so therefore your answer was directed at me rather than any "layman." It seemed to me like a backdoor and underhanded way of telling me that I didn't understand what I had read.

As far as the article, if you have a problem with the wording, you should contact the University of Kentucky about it.