Permanent herd building insanity?

[SD51555]

I really want some venison. I’m ready to shoot one, but I discovered a new problem last night. I have it in my head to not shoot does that have fawns with them, the idea being not to kill the ones smart enough to successfully raise fawns.

My area, it seems like we’ve been in herd building mode for over 12 years straight. We had the back to back to back horrible winters, wolves, and severe overharvest leading up to that dating back to the late 2000’s and then the perfect storm hit and pops have been sketchy ever since.

That’s led me to never feeling good about taking a doe. I encourage all my guests to shoot whatever they want though. I got over that hyper controlling harvest shit years ago.

I truly think we are one good winter away from a population changing situation that will position the herd well for years to come. There’s so damn much logging going on, that the carry capacity will be many times higher than what we have deer for now.

Am I still on the right track, or should I just take a fawn and call it good? I feel if I kill a doe, the doe dies, her 1-2 fawns die, and next years 1-2 fawns die as well. I don’t really want to shoot a fawn because I don’t want to do the work for that little meat.


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[Foggy47]

I really want some venison. I’m ready to shoot one, but I discovered a new problem last night. I have it in my head to not shoot does that have fawns with them, the idea being not to kill the ones smart enough to successfully raise fawns.

My area, it seems like we’ve been in herd building mode for over 12 years straight. We had the back to back to back horrible winters, wolves, and severe overharvest leading up to that dating back to the late 2000’s and then the perfect storm hit and pops have been sketchy ever since.

That’s led me to never feeling good about taking a doe. I encourage all my guests to shoot whatever they want though. I got over that hyper controlling harvest shit years ago.

I truly think we are one good winter away from a population changing situation that will position the herd well for years to come. There’s so damn much logging going on, that the carry capacity will be many times higher than what we have deer for now.

Am I still on the right track, or should I just take a fawn and call it good? I feel if I kill a doe, the doe dies, her 1-2 fawns die, and next years 1-2 fawns die as well. I don’t really want to shoot a fawn because I don’t want to do the work for that little meat.


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Age old question SD. We shoot few does....but I am not opposed to it. I got a deer factory here now. With decent nutrition.....we also now have bucks with good racks. The neighbors tell me that they have never had good racks on bucks for over 50 years....always little basket racks until recent times.

I say, shoot whatever trips your trigger....but we normally watch does....and treat 'em like decoys. This year I have pics of four good bucks....and maybe another six or so that seem to be locals. I imagine that I have six or eight doe groups bedding here. Enough to keep the boys around.

 

[356]

Doe harvests are so regional that no "state wide" plan can really inform a smaller property outside of supporting the state's regional goals. Does generally do not disperse like bucks, so management is easier and can be done on a smaller scale. If you are seeing a good adult ratio (1 adult doe to 1 adult buck) then the harvest of a doe or two for venison is not going to hurt your plans.

This year we have a bumper crop of button bucks....of the seven fawns I see on camera regularly, five are BB's, so I am going to give permission to my son and granddaughter who hunt our property to take one. So, my advice, take a fawn or a doe and call it good. While your math works, it assumes high recruitment rates. By taking the fawn, you are increasing the carrying capacity for the other deer for years to come as well.

Hopefully all we are doing is helping you confirm what you already know....we generally turn to you for insights, not the other way around

 

[Turkey Creek]

I am in the same situation in of all places frickin' Kansas. Right now just by trail camera photos, which can be misleading, I have a 8:1 buck to doe ratio. Sounds good until you realize that with few does around the bucks are going to go somewhere else in search of them at this time of year. I really haven't figured out the population dynamics in my area yet. Every other place I have lived in my life a guy is usually over run with does. The bucks are through all age classes so obviously there are does somewhere within a few miles, but they aren't on my place.

 

[SD51555]

I had one on the X last night for ten minutes. Her and her fawn were chowing down for an hour straight. Winds were perfect, food was perfect, blind placement, shooting lane, crossbow perfectly sited, deer not 15 yards away.

I never entertained shooting. I don’t want her fawn doing winter here alone. I’m 400 yards away from over 1,000 acres of clear cut logging that just got done. That block will change the landscape. My land ca attract deer and hold some, but the logging is what is going to change the game.

I don’t know what changed, but the foresters are finally getting on the ball and getting caught up. Behind me, there are giant aspen trees dying and falling down. They still have catching up to do, but the whole system is changing. Our carrying capacity is expanding quickly.

I’m also wise enough to know the land will ultimately only carry so much, and it’s only as strong as its weakest months and in the worst conditions. I keep a sharp eye on browse intensity coming out of winter, plot grazing intensity etc.


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[SD51555]

The other thing the logging is doing is also displacing lots of public land hunters. That’s a dynamic I’m watching closely. There’s gonna be a lot of people moving around. Are they gonna stay, move, move away completely, or quit?


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[Telemark]

I try not to shoot does anymore, and I won't even consider shooting a does with fawns. I'd rather take a young buck if I need a meat deer.

However, my favorite meat deer is a fawn. I'll only take a fawn if I have a good head or neck shot. A nice clean kill on a fawn wastes basically no meat (I won't cook or eat any part of the CNS), and a fawn is very easy to drag out and process alone. There's also no blood-jelly mess when butchering, which makes the entire process that much more pleasant. Luckily, my family is never hard up for venison, so I can afford to be picky.

I don't know your situation, but if I was in your shoes, I'd probably just take the first deer that gave me a good shot and worry about being picky after my freezer was full. You've put an incredible amount of effort into your habitat work, so you shouldn't feel even a hint of guilt for enjoying some of the benefit.

 

[Telemark]

I’m 400 yards away from over 1,000 acres of clear cut logging that just got done. That block will change the landscape. My land ca attract deer and hold some, but the logging is what is going to change the game.

Are they replanting? If not, a dibble bar and a couple hundred conifers might make for some incredible cover down the road.

 

[BenA]

Why not shoot a buck?

 

[Bill]

I say get yourself some venison because as well as it's going you never know what Mother Nature has in store. I've owned my place for 19 years and only shot a couple does. That was in the first couple years until I realized I had neighbors who slaughtered them. Those neighbors sold to people that manage and our buck age structure improved and the doe numbers increased over the last 5 years. Last year the neighbor and I were talking and decided it was time to shoot some does. I was actually looking forward to it. July rolled around and EHD wiped out our herd. Yesterday afternoon I hunted with my video camera from a vantage point I would easily have seen 10 deer from in the past. Saw a doe and her fawn. Go get some burger while you can...

 

[SwampCat]

I am in the same situation in of all places frickin' Kansas. Right now just by trail camera photos, which can be misleading, I have a 8:1 buck to doe ratio. Sounds good until you realize that with few does around the bucks are going to go somewhere else in search of them at this time of year. I really haven't figured out the population dynamics in my area yet. Every other place I have lived in my life a guy is usually over run with does. The bucks are through all age classes so obviously there are does somewhere within a few miles, but they aren't on my place.

This is exactly what I saw at my place. The goal was a balanced herd - a 1:1 buck doe ratio. The bucks quickly bred the does and left. It also turned out, at my place- a 1:1 buck doe ratio does not work as far a enough does to bear enough fawns to replace ALL mortality. I should have allowed my bucks to increase up to my doe numbers - not shoot the does down to my buck numbers.


It took a lot longer to get your does back than shoot them down. We shot them down to a 1:1 buck doe ratio in two years and eight years of not killing a doe to get them back. I have learned it takes right around 2.5 to 3 does per buck to provide enough fawns to replace all mortality. Our fawn recruitment averages between .4 and .5 per doe. Even when we reduced our doe numbers, we always had plenty of bucks because they move in to the best habitat. I now have a neighboring cattle rancher who has a ton of does but not a lot of bucks - nine months of the year - but the bucks move in during the fall.

My group now kills a couple of does each year off my 350 acres, and my adjoining neighbors kill a lot of does. We dont kill ours so that they can kill theirs. I have never tried this on my own property - but I almost feel like we could kill almost all our bucks and we would have just as many the next year - although the age structure would no doubt suffer. I have the best deer habitat in the local area - and I think the bucks will come to me.

 

[SD51555]

Are they replanting? If not, a dibble bar and a couple hundred conifers might make for some incredible cover down the road.

The aspen comes back so fast it’s a non starter. They do replant pines where they take them, but that’s about it.


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[Telemark]

The aspen comes back so fast it’s a non starter. They do replant pines where they take them, but that’s about it.


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Is it mainly aspens they are harvesting? Or do you mean no matter what they harvest, it comes back as aspens?

 

[SD51555]

Is it mainly aspens they are harvesting? Or do you mean no matter what they harvest, it comes back as aspens?

They use everything, but if they don’t thin or plant for other species, they don’t happen unless they are in places aspen doesn’t grow like a swamp or lowland. It’s all aspen forests up here on the dry ground.


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[Telemark]

They use everything, but if they don’t thin or plant for other species, they don’t happen unless they are in places aspen doesn’t grow like a swamp or lowland. It’s all aspen forests up here on the dry ground.


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You couldn't plant Norway in pockets where they took other species?

 

[H20fwler]

I won't shoot a doe with multiple fawns, I always look for a doe with no fawns.
If I need venison I wait until second gun and might shoot a doe with a single fawn or a fat button buck.
The kids can shoot whatever they want the first couple years.

 

[Catscratch]

Shoot a fawn and do the work to put some meat in the freezer. But, if you've become attached to your does and think you need to leave them alone then go somewhere else to shoot meat. Take a weekend trip or something. Draw blood and have fun, life is to short to stress over things like hunting.