Looking ahead to Fall Planting

[Derek Reese 29]

Hello everyone,
Just wondering if/how you all plant your fall plots over top of existing clover plots? I have alot of established clover plots that I would like to top-dress with some kind of brassica mix (looking at GRO's grains and greens, fall draw or bulbs galore or some combination of forage brassica, winifred brassica, kale and daikon radish). I was thinking about lightly haring, then spreading the seed, then mowing the existing clover down short (4-8"). Would this work? Or will the cuttings hurt the chances for the newly broadcast seeds to germinate and develop. Note that some of the clover patches were annuals so only intended for spring/summer food (that I really wouldn't mind if the clover was second to the fall stuff), while others I would like to keep somewhat intact and may only do strips of fall/winter food. We have a high deer density and I am in North Central PA, so the first frost is around October 15th. Thanks in advance for your help.-Derek

 

[35-acre]

I'm in the southern part of NYS. I typically do a few plantings for fall but take that for what it's worth as I haven't been successful (you'll read why).

1. I do a planting at the end of July (last year the 25th) of brassica, turnips, radish and rape.
2. A week to 10 days later I put some urea down and also drop some oats in fairly heavy.
3. Then around the third week in September I put down some winter rye.

I too have a "deer problem" in that my field is the only one around so it gets hammered! Nothing grows to full maturity. I attributed this to the fact that I was also planting barley, triticale and oats at the end of April/May as a plot for over the spring/summer. Then I got to thinking that there is SO MUCH GREEN in the woods that I don't need to feed them or to get them used to my field during the summer. Basically I had built a nursery for the doe and yearlings. So this year, I'm skipping the early planting this year with the hopes that the deer won't be in the field as much once I get my fall seed down. That may give my fall stuff a week or two to get going before they "discover it" again (it's doubtful but a fence system didn't work last year).

As for how I planted my fall stuff, I'm a T&M fan (primarily because I don't have equipment but it's been working well enough that i'm a believer). Typically I would spray with glysophate and then just knock down what was growing from my earlier planting with my ATV and a harrow rake (spikes up - NOT down). This helps build up that OM layer (Organic Matter). Last year I tried mowing parts of the field and I dragged the other parts. I didn't see a difference.

good luck!

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I'm in the southern part of NYS. I typically do a few plantings for fall but take that for what it's worth as I haven't been successful (you'll read why).

1. I do a planting at the end of July (last year the 25th) of brassica, turnips, radish and rape.
2. A week to 10 days later I put some urea down and also drop some oats in fairly heavy.
3. Then around the third week in September I put down some winter rye.

I too have a "deer problem" in that my field is the only one around so it gets hammered! Nothing grows to full maturity. I attributed this to the fact that I was also planting barley, triticale and oats at the end of April/May as a plot for over the spring/summer. Then I got to thinking that there is SO MUCH GREEN in the woods that I don't need to feed them or to get them used to my field during the summer. Basically I had built a nursery for the doe and yearlings. So this year, I'm skipping the early planting this year with the hopes that the deer won't be in the field as much once I get my fall seed down. That may give my fall stuff a week or two to get going before they "discover it" again (it's doubtful but a fence system didn't work last year).

As for how I planted my fall stuff, I'm a T&M fan (primarily because I don't have equipment but it's been working well enough that i'm a believer). Typically I would spray with glysophate and then just knock down what was growing from my earlier planting with my ATV and a harrow rake (spikes up - NOT down). This helps build up that OM layer (Organic Matter). Last year I tried mowing parts of the field and I dragged the other parts. I didn't see a difference.

good luck!

Thanks for the response! I have been really successful growing clover, but after seeing a huge herd of deer in a neighbor's winter grain field (not sure what it was, but it was short and green in late October and there were tons of deer in it) I am looking to upgrade with more late fall/winter food. I like the idea of winter wheat/rye/oats...do you just broadcast it all or do you have a drill? I have somewhat limited tools (small tractor, small brushhog, ATVs, small hare, and a backpack sprayer and SOLO spreader). I was trying to avoid spraying, as my backpack sprayer leaks and I don't really want gly all over my hands. Thanks again.

 

[scott44]

I plant my brassicas into last years cereal grains the first part of July by rolling down the rye and spraying with Gly. I use the Dbltree cereal grain mix so there is red clover in there and if the rye is really thick it will stop the Gly from hitting the clover and the clover will take over and not let the brassicas take off. I've also tried not spraying at all and basically got a clover plot with some brassicas, not sure what mowing will do to annual clovers without spraying. I don't mind there being some clover in the brassica plot but you'll have to stunt the clover or kill it or the brassicas won't take off.

You can see where the rye was a little thicker and didn't let the Gly hit the clover.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I plant my brassicas into last years cereal grains the first part of July by rolling down the rye and spraying with Gly. I use the Dbltree cereal grain mix so there is red clover in there and if the rye is really thick it will stop the Gly from hitting the clover and the clover will take over and not let the brassicas take off. I've also tried not spraying at all and basically got a clover plot with some brassicas, not sure what mowing will do to annual clovers without spraying. I don't mind there being some clover in the brassica plot but you'll have to stunt the clover or kill it or the brassicas won't take off.

hmmm..i was hoping that cutting it low enough might stunt the clover or even kill it off enough? or maybe ill just have to bite the bullet and buy a real sprayer....thanks for the info!

 

[SwampCat]

I do almost what you are talking about - but I use a Woods seeder that I set to lightly disk in the existing clover - and plant wheat at the same time. It also has a cultipacker on it. I disturb about half the ground in the clover plot. Depending upon the height And composition of the existing vegetation - I might or might not bushhog. If a lot of weeds - I will go ahead and clip to about four or five inches so as not to get the clover too low. If not a lot of growth, I leave it as it is. The wheat is a grass which benefits from Nitrogen in the clover plots.

 

[35-acre]

Thanks for the response! I have been really successful growing clover, but after seeing a huge herd of deer in a neighbor's winter grain field (not sure what it was, but it was short and green in late October and there were tons of deer in it) I am looking to upgrade with more late fall/winter food. I like the idea of winter wheat/rye/oats...do you just broadcast it all or do you have a drill? I have somewhat limited tools (small tractor, small brushhog, ATVs, small hare, and a backpack sprayer and SOLO spreader). I was trying to avoid spraying, as my backpack sprayer leaks and I don't really want gly all over my hands. Thanks again.

I have a 220 ATV, a drag behind harrow rake, a $20 hand-held 2 gallon pump sprayer and a shoulder spreader. My field is about 1.5-2 acres. Generally I don't use 2 gallons when spraying. I literally just throw out my seed, spray and then knock things down.

 

[yoderjac]

Hello everyone,
Just wondering if/how you all plant your fall plots over top of existing clover plots? I have alot of established clover plots that I would like to top-dress with some kind of brassica mix (looking at GRO's grains and greens, fall draw or bulbs galore or some combination of forage brassica, winifred brassica, kale and daikon radish). I was thinking about lightly haring, then spreading the seed, then mowing the existing clover down short (4-8"). Would this work? Or will the cuttings hurt the chances for the newly broadcast seeds to germinate and develop. Note that some of the clover patches were annuals so only intended for spring/summer food (that I really wouldn't mind if the clover was second to the fall stuff), while others I would like to keep somewhat intact and may only do strips of fall/winter food. We have a high deer density and I am in North Central PA, so the first frost is around October 15th. Thanks in advance for your help.-Derek

The only way I have been successful at planting in established clover is to suppress the clover. You can do this with a 1 qt/ac gly and I've also done this by bushhoging it so flat the the ground the bushhog scalps in places. The idea is to top kill it. Timing is key to using this technique. You need to time it so that you have rain in the forecast and cool evenings that favor the clover. The nice thing about the gly method is that 1 qt/acre is sufficient to kill most grasses.

My next step is to use a no-till drill. You may be able to surface broadcast and cultipack with brassica. I have not tried this myself, but I don't see why it would not work. I've drilled radish and WR. Both have worked well. What happens is that with the rain, the seed germinates quickly and starts to grow. The clover bounces back from the root system but the brassica has time to get above it to get light. The clover then fills in nicely making a carpet below the radish.

I've posted pictures of this technique before, but here they are again:

Thanks,

Jack

 

[35-acre]

Damn those are nice looking fields Jack! The only way my turnips get that big is inside the cage protecting my trees.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

The only way I have been successful at planting in established clover is to suppress the clover. You can do this with a 1 qt/ac gly and I've also done this by bushhoging it so flat the the ground the bushhog scalps in places. The idea is to top kill it. Timing is key to using this technique. You need to time it so that you have rain in the forecast and cool evenings that favor the clover. The nice thing about the gly method is that 1 qt/acre is sufficient to kill most grasses.

My next step is to use a no-till drill. You may be able to surface broadcast and cultipack with brassica. I have not tried this myself, but I don't see why it would not work. I've drilled radish and WR. Both have worked well. What happens is that with the rain, the seed germinates quickly and starts to grow. The clover bounces back from the root system but the brassica has time to get above it to get light. The clover then fills in nicely making a carpet below the radish.

I've posted pictures of this technique before, but here they are again:

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks Jack! That multi-level approach is what I am shooting for, with the clover filling in underneath while the brassica shoots up. Do you think I should broadcast the seed before brush-hogging, or will the seed be small enough to get through the mat of cut foilage? That would be my only issue I think. Thanks so much for your pictures and advice.

 

[yoderjac]

Damn those are nice looking fields Jack! The only way my turnips get that big is inside the cage protecting my trees.

Those are radishes not turnips. I typically surface broadcast turnips into my warm season crops for fall along with CC and WR. I do roughly 7 acres of this. Most years my deer ignore turnip forage until the sweeten but they will hammer radish as soon as it start growing. In normal years, I can get turnip bulbs of 5 lbs if I plant PTT early enough. Last year we had a short drought after planting and a failed mast crop. I didn't get a single turnip bulb and they hammered the forage as soon as it grew. We have been keeping our population in check pretty well by shooting does.

Thanks Jack! That multi-level approach is what I am shooting for, with the clover filling in underneath while the brassica shoots up. Do you think I should broadcast the seed before brush-hogging, or will the seed be small enough to get through the mat of cut foilage? That would be my only issue I think. Thanks so much for your pictures and advice.

You can do it in either order, but I like broadcasting seed first. This lets any vegetation that falls on it and desecrates act like mulch. If you spray with 1 qt/ac gly, you don't have to bush hog the clover flat, you can just mow normally the next day. The gly will top kill the clover.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Those are radishes not turnips. I typically surface broadcast turnips into my warm season crops for fall along with CC and WR. I do roughly 7 acres of this. Most years my deer ignore turnip forage until the sweeten but they will hammer radish as soon as it start growing. In normal years, I can get turnip bulbs of 5 lbs if I plant PTT early enough. Last year we had a short drought after planting and a failed mast crop. I didn't get a single turnip bulb and they hammered the forage as soon as it grew. We have been keeping our population in check pretty well by shooting does.



You can do it in either order, but I like broadcasting seed first. This lets any vegetation that falls on it and desecrates act like mulch. If you spray with 1 qt/ac gly, you don't have to bush hog the clover flat, you can just mow normally the next day. The gly will top kill the clover.

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks for the input Jack! We try to keep our deer population down by shooting does (we are even are bordered by a deer control area where it is almost year-round hunting for does with rifles), but still see 80-100 deer every night in a 2 mile loop around our farm. So, needless to say, we need alot of forage, especially in the winter. I have tried to plant turnips before (WI Tall Tine Tubers) but I planted them too thick in too small an area and too late so they only got about 4 inches tall and never grew bulbs. The deer crushed them all after the first few frosts and they were gone by late October. I like the idea of a combo of radishes and turnips. Thanks again.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the input Jack! We try to keep our deer population down by shooting does (we are even are bordered by a deer control area where it is almost year-round hunting for does with rifles), but still see 80-100 deer every night in a 2 mile loop around our farm. So, needless to say, we need alot of forage, especially in the winter. I have tried to plant turnips before (WI Tall Tine Tubers) but I planted them too thick in too small an area and too late so they only got about 4 inches tall and never grew bulbs. The deer crushed them all after the first few frosts and they were gone by late October. I like the idea of a combo of radishes and turnips. Thanks again.

Wow, those are high deer numbers. Deer tend to herd in the winter in your area, less so down here in VA than when I lived in PA. I hunted deer at a camp in Potter County when I was in college as well as in central PA. I'm sure things have changed since then.

We had pretty high deer numbers when I started but they are pretty balanced now. We are in a DMAP program. This allows does to be harvested any day of the deer season and they don't count to daily or season bag limits. It does not allow near-year-round deer hunting like in our urban areas where archery seasons are in most of the year for does.

Radish and turnips fill different niches for me. My deer will feed on radish forage as soon as it grows. They can hit it hard during years with poor mast crops, but once they have acorns, enough pressure is relieved on the radish for them to grow arm sized tubers if I plant them early. They are great for the soil and sometimes called organic tillage. Deer will eventually hit the tubers as the season goes on but only after they have decimated the tops. We can get some warm days in December after hard freezes. The radish tubers will get soft and begin to rot and deer stop using them. Diakon radish is all the same. I use the cheapest I can find, usually Groundhog Radish.

I use cheap purple top turnips. Attraction is never an issue in areas with high deer populations. Anything you plant will be attractive by comparison because they have decimated many native foods. Once things get back in balance and quality native food bounce back, attraction can become more of a factor. Unless we have a mast crop failure (in which case deer eat everything planted as soon as they can), deer ignore my turnip tops until we have had a couple hard frosts. That is when they start on the tops. My turnip tubers will last well passed the season. Deer seem to hammer them in February.

I have a bunch of small fields that I keep in clover. These are 1/3 acre or less typically and are used as kill plots for does. Because I'm further south than you, summer is my major stress period. I'm trying to do QDM and we probably have influence over enough land to be marginally effective. I plant about 7 acres or warm season annuals. We used to plant soybeans but because of a Marestail problem, we've switched over to a sunn hemp and buckwheat mix. I surface broadcast a cover crop for fall on these fields. I typically use PTT, Crimson Clover, and Winter Rye. Sometimes I'll add GHR, but I mostly drill that into clover fields.

One key is keeping the mix light on brassica. I never exceed 2 lbs of PTT and 3 lbs/ac of total brassica. I use anywhere from 50-100 lbs/ac of WR and about 10 lbs/ac of CC.

You are a bit further north so your approach may be different.

THanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

Just curious,

Anyone NOT looking ahead/forward to fall planting?

bill

 

[BobinCt]

I am for the LC Mix, but not for my brassicas since the insects destroy em. I’m thinking of putting them in Aug-26-Sep 3. Our first frost is typically Oct 15. I won’t get good tubers/bulbs, but hopefully less insects destroying them. I normally put them in 2nd-3rd week of Aug.

 

[Rit]

Just curious,

Anyone NOT looking ahead/forward to fall planting?

bill

Always looking forward. Sitting on 150 lbs of Buckwheat that I can’t wait to plant. The rain says otherwise though.