Interesting Chemical Story - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

About 6 years ago I got a call from a local guy asking me if he could hire me to come spray his Clearfield variety of sunflowers he had a farmer plant for him. He needed my assistance because the farmer was too busy to come back and spray Raptor. So, I accepted the job
He had 11 acres of sunflowers and they were planted up against 2 ponds....each pond about 2 acres or so in size. Incidentally the ponds were COVERED with algae and you simply could not see water. I asked the owner if he had fish in the ponds and he said, "Yes, big ones! But we can only fish them in very early spring before the Algae takes over."
So, I go ahead and spray his plot just before dark with Raptor, non-ionic surf, as and insecticide. It was a shade breezy and there were days of rain in the forecast and it needed to be sprayed.
2 days later the owner called me to say "Whatever you sprayed on those sunflowers must have drifted into the ponds because all the algae is dead and at the bottom of the pond!" note: He said this excitedly and followed with, "Me and my son just wore the bass out!!!!!" (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) So I quickly jumped on the internet to pull the Raptor label and sure enough, "This chemical is EXTREMELY toxic to aquatic vegetation and should not be used within 100 ft of rivers, streams and ponds."
Fast fwd to today we now have "Clearcast" herbicide by BASF, the same company that makes Raptor and it is labeled for "Aquatic vegetation." Compare the 2 labels and they appear identical. There has been discussion on here about guys using Clearcast instead of Raptor because they are "identical" but I have yet to see where people have done it and posted the results. So, me being me, I have to see for myself so I just bought a gallon of Clearcast online for $219 delivered. Every spring I buy 8 gallons of Raptor for my sunflower and clover spraying and if Clearcast truly is "Raptor" I had to at least give it a try. $1600 is a lot less expensive than $4,000! For this test, I just planted a few rows of clearfield sunflowers 2 weeks ago just so I can go over them with Clearcast to see. And I am gonna put a hot tank mix of clearcast over clover to see first hand as well......
Had to put this to rest....or at least, get the bed ready!!!
m

Thanks for testing it...for all of us! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Will be interesting, maybe they made the aquatic generic brand because only a food plotter is crazy enough to pay for the real thing. That said I can tell you 100% that generic vs brand name in medical drugs , while exactly the same label active ingredient, doesn't work the same.
But my money is this one will work the same. Keep us informed. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Glad to hear this turned out well, but it could just as easily had the opposite effect with the wrong chemical! I would say this is a message to all of us about wind drift! Due to being an absentee landowner I've had to spray in less than ideal conditions, but was using gly.

Banc,
Are you suggesting all brand name drugs are more effective than the generic equivalent?

I worked in the Ag Chem business for awhile. I know that pricing is set based on "maximum economic viability."
For example a formulation sold for high value crops that required low rates was sold at very high dollar-per-ounce prices.
Meanwhile, the same compound that was marketed toward lower value crops that needed higher rates were rebranded and sold at much, much lower price point.
Clearcast is an aquatic formulation that requires much higher rates per acre, so if it was priced at the price point of Raptor, the cost per acre would be well above "economic viability."

The active ingredient in brand name drugs is identical to the active ingredient in generic drugs, however other things may vary slightly like carriers. They are tested to perform substantially the same as the brand name but not identically. This is why doctors have the option of specifying whether a generic substitute is acceptable on a prescription.
As for Raptor and Clearcast; Thanks to Mali for testing. My guess is that they will perform identically and are identical. The only difference is the pricing structure. Most things like this are not priced based on cost, they are priced based on what the market will bare. A farmer planting a crop plan to make a profit and plans to make a larger profit when using the herbicide or else he wouldn't use it. That drives the market for Raptor and BSAF is taking its cut of the farmer's profit with the pricing.
I would guess the Clearcast market is likely driven by private ponds that are not a significant contributor to a profit making operation. Customers won't likely tolerate the same pricing structure.
One more factor may be R&D cost. That is generally factored in to pricing when a new chemical is patented and approved for an application. While BSAF probably incurred some testing costs for Clearcast, since the original chemical was already developed, the overall development cost was likely less.
I also wonder if approval for a new application extends the patent life. I'm not sure how this works in the herbicide industry.
Thanks,
Jack

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Originally Posted by TrademarkTexan
I worked in the Ag Chem business for awhile. I know that pricing is set based on "maximum economic viability."
For example a formulation sold for high value crops that required low rates was sold at very high dollar-per-ounce prices.
Meanwhile, the same compound that was marketed toward lower value crops that needed higher rates were rebranded and sold at much, much lower price point.
Clearcast is an aquatic formulation that requires much higher rates per acre, so if it was priced at the price point of Raptor, the cost per acre would be well above "economic viability."
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We were evidently typing at the same time but you said it much more succinctly.

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Originally Posted by edisonck
Banc,
Are you suggesting all brand name drugs are more effective than the generic equivalent?
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Some 100% sure , not all, but some do not have the same results.

As a Clearcast veteran I assure you that you will be pleased with the results!
I love that stuff! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

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Originally Posted by CuivreDog
As a Clearcast veteran I assure you that you will be pleased with the results!
I love that stuff! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
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I guess that is what we all have been looking for. Everyone harps on how they are "the same" yet(unless I missed something), no one has come forward and said, "Hey guys........I bought clearcast and yes, it works on clearfield variety sunflowers and clover"
CuivreDog: Did you run the same rate as Raptor when spraying clearfield sunflowers and clover?

 

[yoderjac]

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Originally Posted by banc123
Some 100% sure , not all, but some do not have the same results.
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Tell me more.

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Originally Posted by foodplotdude
CuivreDog: Did you run the same rate as Raptor when spraying clearfield sunflowers and clover?
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No experience on sunflowers since I've never planted them but I've had great luck with it on clover using the Raptor label as my guide. I had a few plots that were in such bad shape that I had considered scrapping and starting all over. With all the rain this year I got behind on my mowing and these plots were looking real bad as the smartweed and various other broadleafs and sedges were taking over.
They are now two of my best clover plots and I was seriously considering nuking them and starting all over.
If you really want to clean a plot up use a Clearcast/Basagran tank mix. I did this on another plot and the results were unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by booner21
Tell me more.
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You can find piles of info in the net. Not to steal this thread, but my son was prescribed a specific med, dr even said don't use the generic, but the pharmacist substituted it without us knowing on the third month. Side effects were immediately horrible, condition severely worsened after having improved and labs went haywire. Took him in and Dr wasn't happy it was switched when the instructions were not to. It was a nightmare because the state controls/tracts the distribution to insure liver blood tests are done before refilling. They wouldn't refill since records showed it hadn't been 30 days. Long story short(er) the non generic is the only one that worked. Dr. said he had years of experience of that happening with this drug. When I checked the labels and inserts, they matched on chemical makeup. Go figure.

I have stated on this forum in a previous thread asking if anybody had used clearcast in place of raptor that I used claearcast following raptor instructions on my clover and chicory and it performed just like raptor said it would. Great product option.
Here's a link to the post started by John Paul.
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthrea...ight=clearcast

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Originally Posted by willy
I have stated on this forum in a previous thread asking if anybody had used clearcast in place of raptor that I used claearcast following raptor instructions on my clover and chicory and it performed just like raptor said it would. Great product option.
Here's a link to the post started by John Paul.
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthrea...ight=clearcast
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My biggest question was has anyone sprayed it over top Clearfield Sunflowers? I can't afford to spray Clearfield over a $5000 sunflower field and cook it. So far guys are saying the clover response is same as Raptor as it pertains to clover. My question is, is Clearcast results on clearfield sunflowers the same as Raptor over Clearfield sunflowers?
I planted a test plot of Clearfield sunflowers a few weeks back JUST for this test with Clearcast. This will let me know first hand.
thanks

Quote:
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Originally Posted by CuivreDog
No experience on sunflowers since I've never planted them but I've had great luck with it on clover using the Raptor label as my guide. I had a few plots that were in such bad shape that I had considered scrapping and starting all over. With all the rain this year I got behind on my mowing and these plots were looking real bad as the smartweed and various other broadleafs and sedges were taking over.
They are now two of my best clover plots and I was seriously considering nuking them and starting all over.
If you really want to clean a plot up use a Clearcast/Basagran tank mix. I did this on another plot and the results were unbelievable.
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I know c learcast can be sprayed over a clover chicory mix at 4-5 oz per acre. What surfacant should be used over cliver chic mix and what rate? Can crop oil concentrate be mixed with clearcast?

In the raptor label it specifies to use a non-ionized surfactant and ams. I use traditions 93 non-ionized surfactant.
I find a label from the internet and use that as my guide.
Here's one.
http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/labels/Raptor.pdf

 

[yoderjac]

END OF TRANSFER FROM QDMA FORUMS