In ground root pouches

Mahindra3016

5 year old buck +
I am considering this style of root pouch for my m111 rootstocks after I graft them. If I use these in ground in a raised bed will the roots grow through and keep going or will the pot stop them? I thought about doing bare root, but I have enough people interested in tree's that I think using some kind of pot will be a lot more convenient for them and for me.
And I was also wondering if anybody has used the tall style tree pot like in the picture? I got a grafted persimmon from a guy last year in one of these pots and it didn't seem to grow to well, although it could have been the vigor of the tree and not the pot.
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I have not used the root pouches myself but I have buddies that have. They are not designed for your intended use. They are meant for a final stage of a root pruning system. With root pruning, it is best to use a series of containers that prune roots at roughly 4" increments (18s, 1 gal Rootbuilder IIs, 3 gal RB2s, etc.). Most upstream branching occurs in the 4 inches behind a prune.

While root pruning containers provide the most benefit if used from the start, I and others I know have put bare root trees in larger root pruning containers to keep them at home, baby them, and build a denser root system before planting them in the field. Whether used as the last stage of root pruning system or used for bare root trees, the root pouches are intended for above ground use. The roots grow through the fabric and are exposed to the air which prunes the roots. Once the bag is full of a good root system, you plant the entire bag. Roots that grow through the bag then go into the native soil and the bag breaks down.

There are fabric bags designed to trap roots rather than letting them grow through the bag. These too are for above ground use but you need to open the bag and remove the root ball for planting. I don't think the bags you are looking at are this kind.

If you want to put them in ground and then transplant them elsewhere, I'd look at these: https://rootmaker.com/retail/27

This is a little different system intended for in-ground use. Here, the roots grow through the holes in the bag into the native soil but are constricted by the holes. This constriction causes the upstream branching. You do get roots in the native soil with these but they are all small so you can extract the bag fairly easily.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I have grown apples in above ground Root Pouch bags with varying soiless mix types, miserable failure for me. Trees grew poorly. I have started oaks in the same style bags, but buried the bags in the soil. Trees grew well, but the tap root will penetrate through the bag on about 20% of them. I have used the tall tree pots for starting oaks and Chestnuts they worked all right but consistent watering outside begins to be a chore. Keep in mind that you increase the cost of production ( in my case substantially) when you go to growing in the pots and filling those pots with some type of mix.
 
Thank you for the replies, I just really think that growing the trees in some type of pot or pounch would be a lot more convenient for people that i sell trees too. I did all regular plastic nursery pots last year with pretty good luck, the only reason i was looking to put the root pouches in a raised bed was to cut down on watering.
All my previous experience Has been with home grown seed started seedlings, so i did start out small and moved up in pot sizes in the two years growing the trees and grafting them over. This will be my first experience with buying and using rootstock, it will be M111 from cummins. If i do go with pots instead of bare root, what size pot is best to start out with? Dimensions of one gallon pouches seemed kind of small to me after looking at google images of the roots on rootstocks.
 
Jack, I have looked at those rootmaker in ground bags a few times, and they look great, but definitely out of my price range for what i am trying to do.
 
There is no doubt they are more expensive. Wholesale the 15"x10" (HxD) bags are about $2.70 each (plus shipping). The 2 gal root pouches you listed for around $1 each are probably around the same size. In the nursery industry the "gal" size is nominal and they don't necessarily hold that many gallons so this is a guess. I don't know if the in-ground rootmaker bags are reusable or not. I use the above ground Rootbuilder II containers which are reusable for many years. The down side is that you need to deal with overwintering above ground containers.

Turkey Creek is right, using a root pruning container system drives up cost. You will get better root systems, but many customers won't know any better and you may have a hard time recouping your cost if you can't get a premium for a root system that folks don't see.

If you plan to do this for the long-haul and sell the trees, I'd look into the Missouri Gravel Bed. You have a one time setup cost and you set it up with irrigation. You are essentially growing trees in a soilless environment with the nutrients in the water you cycle through. There is a recent thread where they are discussed with some good links.

If I was starting from scratch, I would probably use Rootmaker 18s for starting trees indoors and time the start so they were ready for transplant into a gravel bed at our last threat of frost. I would need to figure out how to set up shading to acclimate them to sun but it seems like a low cost high benefit approach if you are doing it for the long haul.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I'm interested to follow the comments on this subject too, so I hope this is not too much of a tread-drift. As Jack mentioned, I like to baby bare root trees over the summer before transplanting to their final locations. Currently, I simply re-use black plastic containers I have saved from garden store purchases (probably 3 and 5 gallon sizes). Since I only add maybe 6 trees per year, I'd like to give them the best possible start, and if using some sort of air-pruning would help, I'd do that. However, are so many options... Root builder, root trapper, injection molded, fabric - and then in what size.... yikes, I always end up using what I have. In laymen's terms, for a one summer transition from bare root to orchard, is root pruning practical? And if so, what would be the best product/size? Thoughts appreciated.
 
I'm interested to follow the comments on this subject too, so I hope this is not too much of a tread-drift. As Jack mentioned, I like to baby bare root trees over the summer before transplanting to their final locations. Currently, I simply re-use black plastic containers I have saved from garden store purchases (probably 3 and 5 gallon sizes). Since I only add maybe 6 trees per year, I'd like to give them the best possible start, and if using some sort of air-pruning would help, I'd do that. However, are so many options... Root builder, root trapper, injection molded, fabric - and then in what size.... yikes, I always end up using what I have. In laymen's terms, for a one summer transition from bare root to orchard, is root pruning practical? And if so, what would be the best product/size? Thoughts appreciated.

First, let me address Mahindra's size question. For clonal root stock (I used M111 but it doesn't really matter), I've tried 1 and 3 gal RB2 containers. I had much better success with the 3 gal containers. These have no tap root to worry about. I found that it really comes down to size. Smaller M111 will fit in a 1 gal but larger won't. I've grafted M111 and immediately potted it. I got better success with 3 gal RB2s than 1 gal but I did have some success with 1 gal.

Apple junkie, you may be doing more harm than good babying your bare root trees in smooth nursery containers. Yes, they get better care at home, but that is offset by the potential for circling and j-hooking roots and the transplant shock. If you plant a bare root tree in the field, the saying goes, the first year is sleep, the second creep and finally in the 3rd year they leap. This is because the root system has major disturbance and is often pruned as the tree is extracted for shipping. It takes time for that root system to reestablish itself before the tree can start growing at full rate again. With those smooth plastic nursery containers, when a root hits the side of the container or bottom, it will either reverse course or, more likely, circle following around the container. While smooth container trees can look great above ground and even do well after transplant for the first few years, if those circling/j-hooking roots constrict themselves over time, you can have problems with the tree. So, in order to avoid this, you really need to remove the tree from the containers and remove enough media to ensure there are no circling roots. If there are, you can manually prune them. The down side is that once you have disturbed the root system to do this, the tree suffers transplant shock all over again when you plant it in the field.

You get the biggest benefit from root pruning containers if you start trees from nuts/seed and use a system from the beginning. The small containers (18s) are shaped to direct the tap root to the holes in the bottom. The containers are hung from a rack so there is air flow below those holes. When the tap root hits the air it naturally desiccates and seals off. This cause the tree to react by significantly increasing the amount of upstream branching. Research shows that the majority of the upstream branching occurs in the last 4" of root before the air prune. The secondary and tertiary roots produced upstream are also redirect to the holes and they too are pruned and the process repeats until the tree runs out of room in the 18 cell. In theory the next sized root pruning container would allow for 4" of expansion on all sides of the root ball. This doesn't need to be exact and practical consideration regarding container size and construction factor in. Once again the larger size containers are designed to route roots to holes where they are pruned.

Root pruning containers trade off a long tap root needed to ensure access to water when a young trees is establishing in nature for a denser root system with more root tips for more efficient uptake of water and nutrients. This means you need to ensure the root ball has sufficient access to water until it is established in the field and is large enough to get what it needs. How much of this is needed depends on your climate. In my area, we get enough spring and fall/winter rain that I don't provide any supplemental water in the field once I plant my trees. In arid regions you may need to provide supplemental water for a year or two.

The thing about these containers is that they are designed so that the root ball is completely undisturbed during transplant. The entire root ball from one sized container is easily extracted and placed in the larger container if the container system is well designed. For example the rootbuilder II containers unwrap from around the root ball. So, when you are planting these in the field there is very little transplant shock to the root system. There is some adaptation required to the new microclimate and soils but this is minor. Unlike bare root trees which must be transplanted when dormant, you can plant these trees in the middle of summer when they are actively growing provided you provide the supplemental water needed.

Bare Root Trees:

You can put bare root trees in root pruning containers and get some benefit. Keep in mind that since most upstream branching occurs in the last 4", you won't get the same benefit as you do using an entire system from see/nut to tree. If you decide it is worth keeping trees at home where you can baby them root pruning containers are much better than smooth nursery containers. They won't cause circling and you won't have that second transplant shock because the entire root ball will stay intact at planting time.

The size container you need really depends on the size of the root ball of the bare root tree. You don't want to circle the roots from the bare root tree to fit into the container. This defeats the purpose. You want the roots to fit into the container. It is probably better to prune roots by hand to fit them in the container rather than wrap them. It is best if you have a container large enough so no manual pruning is required. I doubt many bare root trees you buy would be small enough to fit in 1 gal RB2s. Except for M111 I've always used 3 gal for small bare root trees. When you get larger than 3 gal, things get pretty heavy for transport and planting and such, but there is no reason you can't use larger containers if your trees are larger and you don't mind dealing with the size.

Hope this helps,

Jack
 
Ben
I've used both 5 gallon plastic pots and 5 gallon Root Pouch containers above ground for the past 3 years and have seen little difference in tree growth. Most of the trees I graft in the spring I plant that fall so I haven't had a problem with roots circling inside the pot. This year I'm trying some 3 gallon Root Pouches.
 
^^^^^ Grey - I'm going to plant my grafts in 5 gal. buckets after I graft them this spring. If I plant them this fall (provided they grow enough) do you think I'll be alright ?? I've just used 2 gal. pots before. I haven't done enough of this to have a good feel.

And what if I don't get ample growth all summer long ?? Could I keep them in a cool garage all winter to plant the next spring ??
 
I think when you are talking about clonal root stock you have much less chance of having circling roots than you do with a tree that has a tap root especially in a single season.

Thanks,

Jack
 
^^^^^ Grey - I'm going to plant my grafts in 5 gal. buckets after I graft them this spring. If I plant them this fall (provided they grow enough) do you think I'll be alright ?? I've just used 2 gal. pots before. I haven't done enough of this to have a good feel.

And what if I don't get ample growth all summer long ?? Could I keep them in a cool garage all winter to plant the next spring ??
You should be fine. I've over wintered trees in 5 gallon pots outside and they did fine in my zone 6A.
 
I may still try a few foot pouches in ground as an experiment to see how much the roots will grow through in one season. It is really looking like I am going to be grafting and potting approx 25 root stocks and plant the other 25 in my raised bed bare root and plan to t bud them in Aug, Most of the bud grafts that i did last Aug appear to have taken, And I actually found that method pretty simple to too.
 
If you want to put them in ground and then transplant them elsewhere, I'd look at these: https://rootmaker.com/retail/27

Thanks,

Jack

Jack,

Would rootmaker’s 8” wide X 15” tall in-ground bags be about right for a single season’s growth of oaks and chestnuts from seed? I have had a horrible time with the Texas heat and air pruning pots. My job has me away from home 18-20 days a month, so it is easy for a watering failure to completely kill a whole season of seedlings for me in the 110° heat. I do, however, have a 3’ X 25’ garden bed that could be transferred to tree growing next year. In ground, I feel my chances of drying out a crop is much slimmer. And, this particular bed is shaded from evening sun.


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Jack,

Would rootmaker’s 8” wide X 15” tall in-ground bags be about right for a single season’s growth of oaks and chestnuts from seed? I have had a horrible time with the Texas heat and air pruning pots. My job has me away from home 18-20 days a month, so it is easy for a watering failure to completely kill a whole season of seedlings for me in the 110° heat. I do, however, have a 3’ X 25’ garden bed that could be transferred to tree growing next year. In ground, I feel my chances of drying out a crop is much slimmer. And, this particular bed is shaded from evening sun.


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I would think it would be about the right size. Another thing to consider is: http://www.unri.org/wsb4713307301/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MGB_webinar.pdf It might be an alternative if you are planning to do this over a longer period and think the investment is worth it.

I want to be clear that while a root pruning system works great in my climate, if I were in a hot dry climate, unless I could provide supplemental water for several years, I would probably opt for a tap root.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Jack,

Would rootmaker’s 8” wide X 15” tall in-ground bags be about right for a single season’s growth of oaks and chestnuts from seed? I have had a horrible time with the Texas heat and air pruning pots. My job has me away from home 18-20 days a month, so it is easy for a watering failure to completely kill a whole season of seedlings for me in the 110° heat. I do, however, have a 3’ X 25’ garden bed that could be transferred to tree growing next year. In ground, I feel my chances of drying out a crop is much slimmer. And, this particular bed is shaded from evening sun.


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I would think it would be about the right size. Another thing to consider is: http://www.unri.org/wsb4713307301/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MGB_webinar.pdf It might be an alternative if you are planning to do this over a longer period and think the investment is worth it.

I want to be clear that while a root pruning system works great in my climate, if I were in a hot dry climate, unless I could provide supplemental water for several years, I would probably opt for a tap root.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack,
If only growing in these 8”X15” in-ground bags for a single season, how close could you reasonably space trees stem to stem without beginning to compete for water/nutrients? I am trying to get an idea of numbers of trees I could put in my limited space at the house.


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Jack,
If only growing in these 8”X15” in-ground bags for a single season, how close could you reasonably space trees stem to stem without beginning to compete for water/nutrients? I am trying to get an idea of numbers of trees I could put in my limited space at the house.


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I don't have hands-on experience with those green bags. My understanding is that they root prune through constriction. That is roots grow through the holes but they can only grow to be the diameter of the holes. That constriction causes the same upstream root branching as air pruning. Trees can only use water and nutrients from where their roots can reach. While some amount of root would extend outside the bag, I presume they would not grow far. As for the tops, I put my containers smack against each other. With sunlight they all seem to get plenty.

Since you will be providing the nutrients with fertilizer, I don't think you will have a problem from resource competition like plants do in the field. Simply make sure you put the fertilizer above each bag.

I've used the above ground PVC coated bags. They work slightly differently. They have a lining that traps the root tips when they hit it. They capture the root tip which has the same root pruning effect.

Based on all this, my best guess would be to keep the in-ground bags a few inches apart.

Thanks,

Jack
 
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