Growing Chestnuts Under Lights - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

Thanks to Wayne (wpbdeer) for starting this useful thread. I'm bringing it over here so the information is not lost.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks to all folks that share and post on this forum. I have learned a great deal because of the knowledge shared by many different individuals.
In 2014 I shipped Chinese chestnuts at cost - Flat Rate Box. Usually got over 50 to a box for $6 each. I helped other habitat managers get to grow trees either under lights or direct seed. That gave me satisfaction I was giving back to my deer hunting passion.
This thread is about my first attempt to grow chestnuts under lights in a grow box. I hope this gives others the motivation to just jump in and do this or a similar project.
Also, I think when posters share with you - they have a right to look behind the curtain and see what you used or didn't use. They want to know what they did turned out well for someone else - personal satisfaction matters to most of us. I want those that helped me to see where I am with the process.
Habitat is similar to computer procedures - there is always more than one path to get a job done successfully.
I jumped in last summer on persimmons. I knew I was late but I wanted to gain the experience of dealing with soil, trays, germination, watering, etc.
I stated my real goal was chestnuts.
Lesson learned - don't be late or you will be trying to get persimmons thru the winter in the back yard - not at their final destination.
Habitat work for a rookie is much like clover plots - usually gets better the 2nd season. My habitat work is much better in 2015.
Hope you enjoy my sharing.
wbpdeer

1. I have a basement grow box that I built specially for this type of project.
2. It can handle 6 rootmaker express 18 trays.
3. I used a raised approach meaning my trays are not on the cold gravel level. The trays rest on 1/2 metal conduit.
4. I have a heater, humidifier, and oscillating fan in the box. I can step inside my grow box. I have two doors that closed together. I used duct tape to seal gaps where my foam insulation boards meet.
5. I have 6 utility four feet long shop lights. I have individual lights on ropes that allow me to lower each end of the four feet two bulb light fixture to the height I need.
6. Right now my lights turn on at 7 AM and turn off at 6:30 PM.
7. My humidifier is on a 24 hour timer that allows me to set 30 minute switches. So I run 30 minutes on and 30 minutes off. Water lasts about 3 days.
8. My electric heater has a nice thermostat that I use it to control on and off.
9. I purchased an indoor/outdoor temperature and humidity instrument. It just shows in large font what we are achieving.
10. I run an oscillating fan for 30 minutes in the morning. I am concerned about drying cells out - so right now that is all of the air time. The air moves the taller plants just the right amount. My fan is on a lower level so I don't fear too much of an air current.
The picture below shows my three extra items in the right side of the photo. You are looking at a humidifier, small electric heater and oscillating fan.

Details in the photo in post #2.
1. You see the eye bolt I used on the light fixture. On that fixture I am using a blue rope.
2. Under the humidifier, you should notice the cement block I used to get my humidifier up to a more appropriate height.
3. See the metal 1/2 conduit used to establish the trays platform. This is effective and cheaper than plywood. It promotes air flow and allows me get inside if I have to change anything.
On March 14th I have 84 chestnuts in media. 80 of these are Chinese chestnuts and 4 are dunstan chestnuts. I only put a chestnut in the media that has a radicle - not wasting time in the box until it does.
First grow box I have built and I felt the conduit was a good approach.
wbpdeer

I read posts, I looked at photos, I beat around the bush and then I got something important right.
Last year with my persimmons, I mixed my own type of soil. It seemed to do fine - for all I knew.
HARD LESSON for me was I packed my mixed soil tight. This rookie worried about stuff falling out the bottom of the pot Ha. Ha. Wish I had of come to realize the importance of air and room for a root to establish.
I went to a grow shop as Big Eight calls it and I purchased high dollar mix. This is where I got it right!
I have pulled persimmons and transplanted them in rootmaker 1 gallon pots and I didn't get the root development I should have.
HP stands for high porous. A compressed bale will go a long ways for me.
In 2014 I spent a great deal of time but I got some fundamentals wrong. Went cheap on mix, packed it tight and didn't fertilize properly.
wbpdeer

I have experienced a wide range of time for my chestnuts germinate. BigEight and some others posted about how they try to get them to wake up. I have been moving them from fridge to windows and back to fridge. No mold concerns yet.
I have a photo below showing my tray in the window with chestnuts in the bag with long leaf sphagnum moss. My area is about to get warmer temps in high 60s, low 70s possible.
Hoping more wake up in the next two days.
Thanks for viewing this thread.
wbpdeer

Great, great post wp. I think your setup is awesome.
I have also found that my wild American nuts experience a wide range of times for radicle germination. Some were literally right at the 60 day mark. Others were 90+.
At what temp did you keep your heater's thermostat? I wonder if Chinese like it warmer than American chestnut. My Americans seem to like it cooler than I had anticipated.

Thanks for the kind words.
I don't have a digital control on the temperature.
My current setting on the heater cycles on / off so that the temperatures in the grow box go up to 76/77 and temps drop down to 68 to 70 before it cycles back on.
Of course that was monitored closely when I first set up as I was concerned about loads on breakers and electrical supply. I added one 20 amp breaker to my 200 amp house electrical box.
I was monitoring when the temperatures here were very cold. Today we are going to hit the high 60s. I will likely be adjusting my heater thermostat to keep temps from getting to high. My basement is not heated.
My dunstans were the last to get set into the grow box and they currently sit closest to the heater. I may have to rearrange some locations of trays. Those closest to the heater, fan and humidifier will dry out sooner than the middle row or the row further away.
I am very pleased with progress at this point.
Thanks for the feedback.
wbpdeer

I use acid to lower the pH of my water. I prep 15 gallons at a time. Guy at the grow shop wised me up on this approach.
I used Osmocote Plus to fertilize when the top growth shows up. You learn quickly that chestnuts have large leaves.
They grow rapidly when they start.
Photos for your information.
Thanks for viewing this thread.
wbpdeer

You've done amazing for your first attempt. I'm still hoping and praying on mine. My hip replacement surgery kept me out of the basement at just the wrong time. When did you plant Wayne?

 

[yoderjac]

Brush,
I had to solve some electrical issues and make sure my delivery of power was spread out so I didn't have load issues.
I got scared I was going to never get started. I broke down and drove 40 miles to Murfreesboro to get professional mix.
You know I sent all chestnuts everywhere and I thought I might be a bust.
So my record keeping was a bust. I started out with two trays quick. Germination is what it is.
I think my box and lights are a good combination. I have not burned any leaves yet. I adjust lights daily - just keep lifting them up.
I guess under lights for three weeks - that is approximate.
Sorry example - but us first timers - do what we do.
wbpdeer

Looking good Wayne!
Just wanted to chime in and say "thank you" once again for including me on the nut distribution list.
When I get a chance I'll post a picture of mine - they are doing extremely well also.
Your father-in-law would be proud to know a part of "his" tree will now be growing in Missouri as well! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Glad yours are doing well. Did you go on the March 14 Walk in Indiana?
This is my first time to grow chestnuts - they get on with it when they start.
I will tell my father in law his chestnuts are doing well for you.
Makes one feel good to think about your deer feeding under those trees.
The QDMA forum is a great thing. It helped me - so I want to share / help others.
wbpdeer

Well I just started my first 6 that had started to sprout. I soaked the rest of them to wake them up so they should really get going in the next week or so. Thanks again for sharing with me and they are now growing in Michigan(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I will post pictures later as they get going.

I encourage anyone growing chestnuts to post your photos on this thread. We want to hear from you and your progress.
We learn from one another.
thanks.
wbpdeer

Shop owner suggested I use the instrument in the photo. I love the large display - I can read it from about 20 feet.
Getting more germination. I was at 5 full express 18s plus 4 in the 6th tray last night. About 8 of those 94 are dunstans.
I will check for germination again on Friday night.
Thanks for viewing this thread.
wbpdeer

That is a great setup wpb. I may try something like that one of these days myself. I've been having such great success growing them the old fashion way that I just hadn't been inclined to try something new. Besides that I've been growing so many seed that my multi seed in a pot method seems to be my best method.
Between the Dunstans, pure Americans, 87.5% back cross Americans, and the Chinese I got from you, I had over 200 chestnuts....not to mention the A. chinquapins, 8 different oak varieties, maples, apples and pears.
I did a mix of peat, top soil, native sandy soil from our place, and a special miracleGro seed starting mix because I had a lot of pots ranging from 10 gallon to 30 gallon. Most seed have been in refrigeration since October and November and I started planting outside in pots towards the end of January since we weren't having many hard freezes.
Most started to germinate in early February and now I have some 2 foot Dunstans and some good sized Americans. The Chinese were planted last and are the smallest of the chestnut right now. Here are a few pics of some of my chestnuts...
The red on the leaves is cayenne pepper to keep the squirrels from messing with the nuts and breaking the stems while I'm away turkey hunting this weekend since I removed the cages. Although it may not look like it in the pic, the soil in those big pots are about 10 inches deep

These are a few of the pure Americans

A few of the back crosses That I have growing...I have around 15 or 16 of these..

A view of only a few of many pots where I have chestnuts and a ton of other stuff growing. Starting October I'm going to have a heck of a transplanting job on my hands...

GraceNMercy,
Thanks for the photos. You will be able to have your own chestnut orchard/grove when you get those to their final place.
I may try American down the road after I get more experience under my belt.
I will have more chestnuts that I have indoor locations for - so I am going to attempt to direct seed in late April and early May here in zone 7A.
Your weather is favorable for your approach. I would have to add about 45 to 60 days to what you can do.
Best of luck turkey hunting.
Thanks again.
wbpdeer

 

[yoderjac]

This is a great pictorial thread with great growing setups! Good work gents!

Jack,
Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it coming from you because I read your threads about your indoor greenhouses over and over.
As I read about your different indoor greenhouses I knew in 2015 I would take the plunge.
It sure has been fun and much easier because of your help.
Thanks for all you shared.
wbpdeer

Great temps in northern middle TN today. I had five dunstans put on good radicles. They have been sitting in the window for the sun to coax them along.
These five were put in the media this evening. Now I have 6 full express 18s for a total of 108 in the grow box.
Tomorrow night I will try to inventory how many Chinese chestnuts vs how many dunstans. Might get a few photos as well.
Because I have full capacity I moved all chestnuts back in the fridge. Now I will try my luck at direct seeding.
Sure is great to see what how quickly the chestnuts go when they put on top growth.
Thanks for reading this thread and please post photos of your chestnuts here.
wbpdeer

Here you go as promised Wayne - better late than never.
Thank you again for the Chinese chestnuts - as you can see they are doing quite well!
1 tray wild crabapples
1 tray wild pears
3 trays chestnuts
&#91;IMG]http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n44/cuivredog_2006/pears%203-23-15.jpg&#91;/IMG]&#91;/URL]]<a href="http://s109.photobucket.com/user/cuivredog_2006/media/pears%203-23-15.jpg.html" target="_blank"> /a>

Thanks for posting the photos here. I sure like knowing where those chestnuts hit the ground and now they are getting tall in your greenhouse / grow setup.
They look as healthy as can be.
Great job on your end. Give us an update when you can.
Thanks once again.
wbpdeer

Quote:
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Originally Posted by CuivreDog
Thank you again for the Chinese chestnuts - as you can see they are doing quite well!
1 tray wild crabapples
==================================
Wild crabs in the roundy pots look great too. Do you ever wish you could ID the wild crabs you encounter? What are those round pots you are utilizing for the crabs?

Everything looks really good! Great work guys!

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by NorthPotterCoPA
Do you ever wish you could ID the wild crabs you encounter?
What are those round pots you are utilizing for the crabs?
==================================
Boy do I ever wish I could ID those crabs.
They are absolutely without a doubt the best tasting crabapples I've ever had - even better than any store bought true apples. My only hope is that they grow true to seed as they seem to do so in the groves as it doesn't matter which tree I pick from - they're all delicious.
If anyone has any insight as to type the best I can describe them is a red blush exterior, very red inside on the pulp, and grow to an average size of a golf ball with a few approaching racquetball size.
All the plants are growing in 3&quot; Jiffy Peat pots except the one tray of rootmakers.

Nice work men!! after 3 months of stratifying my dunstans.... I cant wake em up. The only signs of life was from 2 nuts starting a radicle in a bag I left in the fridge... they started a small radicle and not much has happened since. I have another 80 sitting on starter mix in RM cells(room temp)....some shells have split on these, that's it... any suggestions would be great Thanks

Here's my set up. Pretty simple. Couple 2x4's with eye bolts to hook my lights on. I've got shelving brackets that I can Raise and lower if I need more fluctuation than just the chains.
I think I have 8 trays of Dunstans, and 4 trays of Benton Harbor Chestnuts in the picture.

BigEight that is impressive. Your setup is twice the size of mine.
How many years have you been growing chestnuts inside under lights?
Do you notice being slower or faster in some years than other years?
Thanks for posting here. Thanks for all of your posts. I have read more your stuff on chestnuts.
wbpdeer

NYBOW,
I say stay the course. I have reached 108 chestnuts in growing media. A total of 22 of these dunstans and the rest are Chinese chestnuts.
My dunstans are larger and just slower to germinate here. I read that same report from others.
If you are already in growing media I think you really have no other choice. Give it at least 21 days.
Now that I am at 6 full trays, I will be trying to direct seed at the final location. I need that experience - to find out what works and what just misses the target.
I only water every 3rd or 4th night. When I cut back on the watering the appear of all seedlings got much more consistent.
It will happen - hang in there.
wbpdeer

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
BigEight that is impressive. Your setup is twice the size of mine.
How many years have you been growing chestnuts inside under lights?
Do you notice being slower or faster in some years than other years?
Thanks for posting here. Thanks for all of your posts. I have read more your stuff on chestnuts.
wbpdeer
==================================
I do quit a few. One of my winter hobbies with the kids. I've been doing them for 4-5 years in anticipation of our woods being logged. Never happened until NOW! so I'm finally ready to get a boat load in the ground!
I have seen the same exact germination rate/speed, and growth rate every year. I use Pro mix HP and Root maker trays. They are usually about 20+&quot; tall at 12 weeks and ready to transplant. I try to time my germination for 12 weeks out from last frost in our area. I might be a little early this year, or spring is a little late, not sure which? (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Thanks wbpdeer! Ill post what happens for all.....pretty sure ive made all the mistakes already (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
I do quit a few. One of my winter hobbies with the kids. I've been doing them for 4-5 years in anticipation of our woods being logged. Never happened until NOW! so I'm finally ready to get a boat load in the ground!
I have seen the same exact germination rate/speed, and growth rate every year. I use Pro mix HP and Root maker trays. They are usually about 20+&quot; tall at 12 weeks and ready to transplant. I try to time my germination for 12 weeks out from last frost in our area. I might be a little early this year, or spring is a little late, not sure which? (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
Do you shoot for 12 weeks out because you don't have room for the larger containers indoors or because you are planting them directly from the 18s in the field? I can't remember if you spring plant or dormant fall plant.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Do you shoot for 12 weeks out because you don't have room for the larger containers indoors or because you are planting them directly from the 18s in the field? I can't remember if you spring plant or dormant fall plant.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
Yes !
Timing them for that 12 week before spring gives me a bunch of flexibility for planting and space. I have the option of taking them to the farm to direct plant out of the trays, and transplanting the rest into 1 gallon pots outside with the nuts removed. Then I can take a batch to plant a month or so later, or over summer some and fall plant.
I tend to bite off more than I can chew. So doing it with this timing gives me a little more insurance when I figure out I've done to many (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I love growing trees indoors, but cutting ties with them right when they can go outside has been a bit more enjoyable for me. Increasing pot sizes from the trays, and growing them for longer periods indoors can turn into a full time job. Goes from a hobby to a job at that point (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

BigEight,
So if I followed your plan correctly, you might plant at two different times this spring and also put some seedlings in bigger pots and carry those thru the summer.
You are north of me, but I am curious about approximately when you will plant at final destination this spring. Will both dates be in April or one in April and the 2nd one in May.
My situation is I am planting everything myself and I too get more on the plate than I can handle.
On purpose I am going to plant this spring but I will carry some thru the summer to plant in the fall. I want to spread my risk and I want the experience of fall planting. I am going to have a load of trees to get in the ground and spreading it out will keep me enjoying it instead of getting overwhelmed.
Thanks BigEight I have learned much reading all of your posts &amp; threads.
wbpdeer

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Now that I am at 6 full trays, I will be trying to direct seed at the final location. I need that experience - to find out what works and what just misses the target.
==================================
I attempted to direct seed mine, as I knew I would not have the room in my greenhouse for them this year, with the pear trees and my regular garden stuff. So far, no sign of them or the direct seed sawtooth, but the three year old sawtooth are just now showing some leaves.
The deer did find my seed bed but I am hoping they left me a few chestnuts and acorns, so I can learn about direct seeding.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
BigEight,
So if I followed your plan correctly, you might plant at two different times this spring and also put some seedlings in bigger pots and carry those thru the summer.
You are north of me, but I am curious about approximately when you will plant at final destination this spring. Will both dates be in April on one in April and the 2nd one in May.
My situation is I am planting everything myself and I too get more on the plate than I can handle.
On purpose I am going to plant this spring but I will carry some thru the summer to plant in the fall. I want to spread my risk and I want the experience of fall planting. I am going to have a load of trees to get in the ground and spreading it out will keep me enjoying it instead of getting overwhelmed.
Thanks BigEight I have learned much reading all of your posts &amp; threads.
wbpdeer
==================================
My &quot;hope&quot; is to plant them all in the spring at 2 different times, or possibly even 1 time if I'm feeling ambitious. I try to time them when then are about 10-12 weeks old in the trays where I can move them outside to acclimate to the sun for a couple weeks before planting. If spring hangs on, i'll keep them in the trays till 14 weeks till fear of frost is gone.
I pushed it a few years ago, and had to go put socks on the top of my planted ones in tubes to protect from a late/hard frost. Whoops.
The ones planted from trays I like to get in late April (frost threats pending) from the pro mix to get the extra moisture with the smaller root mass. Then I'll go back a few weeks later with 1 gallon potted ones that will be in heavier potting soil that won't need as much moisture to survive. They seem to be about the same size at the end of the growing season, so I try to get them all in directly from the trays if I can help it, and cut out 1/2 the work.
I don't personally have a use for babying trees in the summer anymore. Too much work, and I don't think it does them any favors being in pots rather than their permanent location getting roots down. JMO
If I didn't have to time it for fear of frost, you could transplant from 10-14 weeks from the trays to spread out your efforts. Figure I have about half the planting time/handling from the trays to the field, so I take that into account when pushing myself to get them in from those trays.
I stress way more about watering potted plants than the ones in the field. I haven't had ANY issues with survival in the field, but have stressed trees and myself in pots. That's work in July/August some years watering daily! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
At the end of the year, they are all the same size anyways, so get em' in and let them do their thing. JMO for my temps/spoils

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
Yes !
Timing them for that 12 week before spring gives me a bunch of flexibility for planting and space. I have the option of taking them to the farm to direct plant out of the trays, and transplanting the rest into 1 gallon pots outside with the nuts removed. Then I can take a batch to plant a month or so later, or over summer some and fall plant.
I tend to bite off more than I can chew. So doing it with this timing gives me a little more insurance when I figure out I've done to many (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I love growing trees indoors, but cutting ties with them right when they can go outside has been a bit more enjoyable for me. Increasing pot sizes from the trays, and growing them for longer periods indoors can turn into a full time job. Goes from a hobby to a job at that point (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
For those you plant directly from the 18s, do you provide supplemental water? The reason I ask is that I've done both. It is certainly much more cost and effort effective to start them indoors and plant them in the spring directly from the 18s. I can't provide any supplemental water in the field. I still don't have a good handle on success rates of those planted directly from the 18s compared to those planted from 5&quot; bags or 1 gal RB2s.
I just wanted to get your experiences on more trees planted in the spring directly from 18s verses fewer trees kept through the summer in 1 gal RB2s and dormant planted in the fall both without supplemental water.
Using your method of rotating the dibble bar, I can probably plant 10 trees from 18s in the time I can plant one tree from a 1 gal RB2.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
For those you plant directly from the 18s, do you provide supplemental water? The reason I ask is that I've done both. It is certainly much more cost and effort effective to start them indoors and plant them in the spring directly from the 18s. I can't provide any supplemental water in the field. I still don't have a good handle on success rates of those planted directly from the 18s compared to those planted from 5&quot; bags or 1 gal RB2s.
I just wanted to get your experiences on more trees planted in the spring directly from 18s verses fewer trees kept through the summer in 1 gal RB2s and dormant planted in the fall both without supplemental water.
Using your method of rotating the dibble bar, I can probably plant 10 trees from 18s in the time I can plant one tree from a 1 gal RB2.
Thanks,
Jack
==================================
Jack beat me to it!
I have about 100 &quot;extra&quot; trees to plant right from the 18s.....let's hear success stories! I only like good news, so failures are not possible ;-)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by CAS_HNTR
Jack beat me to it!
I have about 100 &quot;extra&quot; trees to plant right from the 18s.....let's hear success stories! I only like good news, so failures are not possible ;-)
==================================
2013, I went 99 out of 100 for success rate straight from the RM trays and NO supplemental watering. The 1 the died, a mouse ate hole through the zip tie hole and overwintered in there and snacked on the bark.
Verdict is still out on last year's to see if they come to life after the winter. I didn't do that many, but doubt if I had any issues. The only ones that I've ever had issues with are in clay where the water pools in the hole because of the difference of planting medium out of the trays. Normal soil, I have had no real problems.

I went 0 for 10 last year on chestnuts planted from one gallon RM pots. Rabbit ate them all. Nothing touched the larger trees planted right next to the small ones.

Tray A March 25 all Chinese
Tallest is right under 14 inches
Tray B March 25 all Chinese
Tallest is 12 1/2 inches
Thanks for viewing.

I added mylar to the doors and the side way after from heater, fan and humidifier. I used white duct tape and push pins on the mylar.
The shorter trays on the right side have blue sticks in the cell that contain the dunstans. Did a recount three times and I have 21 dunstans. Earlier I overcounted the dunstans.
This grow box opens up and I can step inside when I need to.
Repositioned some trays which allowed me to flatten out the lights some. I believe this will deliver the light more evenly. I have about 30 cells without top growth. This I will monitor over the next 2 weeks. I expect that number to decline sharply.
Thanks for viewing. I am open to suggestions and other ways folks have success.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by bigeight
2013, I went 99 out of 100 for success rate straight from the RM trays and NO supplemental watering. The 1 the died, a mouse ate hole through the zip tie hole and overwintered in there and snacked on the bark.
Verdict is still out on last year's to see if they come to life after the winter. I didn't do that many, but doubt if I had any issues. The only ones that I've ever had issues with are in clay where the water pools in the hole because of the difference of planting medium out of the trays. Normal soil, I have had no real problems.
==================================
That is my issue, heavy clay. I did a bunch of research. The technique I'm using has been working well for planting from RB2s but I can't figure out how to adapt it to planting from 18s.
For those of you with heavy clay and a climate similar to mine in VA, here is what I do for RB2s.
I use my tractor auger to dig the hole. I pic a spot where water does not drain toward the tree. I dig it as deep as I can but keep the diameter as close as possible to the diameter of the RM. I then backfill with amended soil (peat, bark, compost etc.). I dip the intact root ball in Waterkeep slurry and plant it. Rather than using amended soil, I use clay to fill the sides around the root ball. I usually plant slightly high to allow for settling.
Here is the theory behind this technique. When you plant from rootmaker pots, you can keep the rootball intact and the tree starts growing much faster than a bare root tree. The problem with clay is that water infiltrates the mix (as well as amended soil) much more than the clay, so when you have a lot of rain, the tree drowns in the pond you created when you plant. The reverse is true as well, when it is dry, the mix dries out much faster than the native clay soil so your tree is starved of water.
By digging a deep hole and amending below the tree, the idea is that during wet times, the water will pond below the tree and not drown it. The key is that the hole is positioned so surrounding area does not drain into it (I sometimes use clay to build a little dam around the tree just to be safe) and that the hole is deep enough so that it can hold all of the water below the root level.
By digging the hole very close to the diameter of the container (that is why the auger works well) and filling around it with native clay, you reduce the distance the lateral roots have to grow before getting into the native clay soils.
So, when things work right, during the spring when my rains are ample, the roots in the mix get enough water but don't get drown. By the time summer rolls around and rain becomes scarce, the lateral roots have infiltrated the clay and can draw water from it.
This approach seems to be working but it isn't really scalable down to the size of 18s.
Thanks,
jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
For those you plant directly from the 18s, do you provide supplemental water? The reason I ask is that I've done both. It is certainly much more cost and effort effective to start them indoors and plant them in the spring directly from the 18s. I can't provide any supplemental water in the field. I still don't have a good handle on success rates of those planted directly from the 18s compared to those planted from 5&quot; bags or 1 gal RB2s.
I just wanted to get your experiences on more trees planted in the spring directly from 18s verses fewer trees kept through the summer.
Jack
==================================
Jack,
I have heavy clay soils mixed with rock here at my place as well and I've been very successful with transplanting directly from the rootmaker 18's or 3&quot; peat pots to their final planting site without supplemental watering.
I transplanted 54 Dunstans in 2013 and like Big 8 I only lost one and that was because I planted it in a low spot where water tended to pool after prolonged rainy periods. I actually think the spot was just too wet for a chestnut to survive, much less flourish.
I believe the key is to get them in the ground as soon my existing chestnuts begin to show any start of leaf growth. That way I take advantage of the early Spring rains to get a jump on tap root formation that gets terminated in the rootmakers as well as the peat pots. Once the taproot has a chance to develop they seem to be able to handle prolonged dry periods as long as it isn't a true drought.
Brett

 

[yoderjac]

The lesson from BigEight and CuivreDog is avoid locations where water can pool.
Makes good sense based on what I observe as they grow.
That will help me greatly in the next 30 to 45 days.
Thanks for the heads up.
wbpdeer

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by CuivreDog
Jack,
I have heavy clay soils mixed with rock here at my place as well and I've been very successful with transplanting directly from the rootmaker 18's or 3&quot; peat pots to their final planting site without supplemental watering.
I transplanted 54 Dunstans in 2013 and like Big 8 I only lost one and that was because I planted it in a low spot where water tended to pool after prolonged rainy periods. I actually think the spot was just too wet for a chestnut to survive, much less flourish.
I believe the key is to get them in the ground as soon my existing chestnuts begin to show any start of leaf growth. That way I take advantage of the early Spring rains to get a jump on tap root formation that gets terminated in the rootmakers as well as the peat pots. Once the taproot has a chance to develop they seem to be able to handle prolonged dry periods as long as it isn't a true drought.
Brett
==================================
Brett,
Thanks. Do you have and comparison data? For example pairs of trees planted next to each other, one planted in the spring from the 18 and the second kept for the summer in an RM2 and then planted after going dormant in the fall. I'd like to get a feel for what happens a few years down the line. Do the trees planted directly from 18s catch up or does any advantage gained by keeping them in RM2s for the summer last, or does it actually accelerate say 3 or 5 years down the road.
I haven't been planting them long enough to get a good feel for this.
Thanks,
jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Brett,
Do you have any comparison data? For example pairs of trees planted next to each other, one planted in the spring from the 18 and the second kept for the summer in an RM2 and then planted after going dormant in the fall. I'd like to get a feel for what happens a few years down the line. Do the trees planted directly from 18s catch up or does any advantage gained by keeping them in RM2s for the summer last, or does it actually accelerate say 3 or 5 years down the road.
I haven't been planting them long enough to get a good feel for this.
Thanks,
jack
==================================
Unfortunately I can't help you out there Jack as I've always planted directly from the rootmakers and have never gone to the trouble of upgrading to RM2s or larger size container nor have I ever tried a fall planting.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by CuivreDog
Unfortunately I can't help you out there Jack as I've always planted directly from the rootmakers and have never gone to the trouble of upgrading to RM2s or larger size container nor have I ever tried a fall planting.
==================================
My general sense is that in the short run it is much more efficient to plant directly from the 18s in my area. The time, cost, and effort to grow trees through the summer and the extra effort planting from larger containers is significant compared to planting from 18s.
Even is I lose more trees planting directly from 18s it still seems more efficient. I have been using the small 18&quot; tubes with and without a mesh top for most of trees planted from 18s to minimize rodent damage. So far, deer browsing pressure on them is light to moderate.
I think I'm going to select a few chestnuts this year and keep them over the summer for a long term comparison.
Thanks,
Jack

I had wpbdeer send me some chestnuts and finally it has been warm enough to get them going outside. I did not have the luxury of starting them inside so we will see how it goes. I also have some bur oak from another member and some chestnuts from Indian Sam as well.
Here is the box that I built. It will hold 6 root maker 18 trays but I only have enough seed for 5 right now. Not sure what I will do with my 6th.

Here is a look from the side.

And a close up of my chestnuts. I went right from the ziplock bags to the Promix HP. Some had great radicles on them some did not we will see what happens. This being my first attempt I will most likely kill them all.

Just a few funny notes. I built the box in my garage never thought to measure the garden boxes outside and build the box to fit perfectly.
Hardware cloth is a nightmare.
Promix HP was all I could get at my agway without waiting so I went with it.
If any critters get in there and steal my stuff I will put a treestand up near the box.
I have a TON of promix HP left over so I hope that these grow big enough to move to 1 gallon pots.
Thanks again to wpbdeer and indian sam for the chestnuts even if I fail miserably it is a lot of fun.

Looks like a good setup, and should keep the critters out. My issue with sawtooth acorns outside was that that the chipmunks dung under my wire cage. Yours should work better. Good luck with the growing.

dBurt,
I really like your outdoor setup. If I read correctly, you have one empty express 18 trays and plenty of mix left over.
I will be glad to send you 18 Chinese chestnuts if you want to put them in the empty tray. Since you posted on this thread and did a great job, I will send them to you at my expense.
PM me you name and mail address if you want to go that route.
I believe in putting the chestnuts down in the mix so the chestnut does not dry out. Yoder believes it also helps ward off mold. I have not experienced mold issues very much - only when I get to leaving them in the window sill trying to encourage them to sprout. If you do that too long at a time, mold is what can occur. That is not the chestnut's fail - the grower is not as patient as need be in all instances.
You are welcome. Appreciate your kind words and hard work!
wbpdeer

Question for Jack Yoder, Matt, BigEight and Others with Multiple Indoor Growing Experience
This year was my first experience at collect Chinese chestnuts and storing them for an indoor growing experience. I worked hard and I distributed over 2,100 Chinese chestnuts. I purchased one pound of dunstans out of Pike County, Illinois.
I am very pleased with my success. Smart enough to know - my second lap around the track can be better than the first one.
QUESTION: Those of you that have stored chestnuts in fridges and then started them growing, what is your germination rate and what have you found that works?
Matt had a germination issue recently and I suggest he soak his Chinese chestnuts over night. I did this with my dunstans after I suggest it to him. I experiences some quick responses.
Some of my Chinese chestnuts that were collected and stored in the same manner by me - have been so resistant to germinate.
I hope I get some feedback that helps me and others. I see a wide variation in how chestnuts respond. If that is what others see - then I can factor that in. If I can change some part of the process, I want a better 2nd lap around the track.
I stored dry in fridge in the beginning two months then put in the long leaf sphagnum moss. I soaked my chestnuts about 9 to 10 hours over night before they went into the fridge right after collecting them in field.
Thanks for all those that posted on other threads about the chestnut process.
Today I direct seed some chestnuts for the experience. Redonthehead has convinced me that it will work - so I will give it a go!
wbpdeer

 

[yoderjac]

I stored mine dry in ziplock bags until I was ready to try to get them to germinate. I then move them to containers I found at the dollar store with moist long leaf sphagnum. The Dunstans responded within a week and began to germinate as did the Amaricans. The wildlife hybrids from Empire Chestnut were the most vigorous and all of them had germinated within about a week to ten days. The Chinese from two different sources some from TN and VA have both proven to be very slow in germinating. So I soaked them in some rainwater for 24 hours and placed them back in the containers. About a week later I'm starting to see some results. I now have about ten that have germinated.
My method for germinating the nits is to store them in the fridge in their containers then move them indoors for a day then back in the fridge for three days and repeat. This seems to help kickstart the germination process while lessening the chance of a mold issue developing if you were to leave them at room temp all the time.
Matt

Here's my &quot;Cheap Man With Little Free Time&quot; method LOL. Seed tossed in potting mix, watered every other day and a sunny window...

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Question for Jack Yoder, Matt, BigEight and Others with Multiple Indoor Growing Experience
This year was my first experience at collect Chinese chestnuts and storing them for an indoor growing experience. I worked hard and I distributed over 2,100 Chinese chestnuts. I purchased one pound of dunstans out of Pike County, Illinois.
I am very pleased with my success. Smart enough to know - my second lap around the track can be better than the first one.
QUESTION: Those of you that have stored chestnuts in fridges and then started them growing, what is your germination rate and what have you found that works?
Matt had a germination issue recently and I suggest he soak his Chinese chestnuts over night. I did this with my dunstans after I suggest it to him. I experiences some quick responses.
Some of my Chinese chestnuts that were collected and stored in the same manner by me - have been so resistant to germinate.
I hope I get some feedback that helps me and others. I see a wide variation in how chestnuts respond. If that is what others see - then I can factor that in. If I can change some part of the process, I want a better 2nd lap around the track.
I stored dry in fridge in the beginning two months then put in the long leaf sphagnum moss. I soaked my chestnuts about 9 to 10 hours over night before they went into the fridge right after collecting them in field.
Thanks for all those that posted on other threads about the chestnut process.
Today I direct seed some chestnuts for the experience. Redonthehead has convinced me that it will work - so I will give it a go!
wbpdeer
==================================
I've been doing this for a few years and made plenty of mistakes. This year was a real eye opener. I bought my Dunstan chestnuts from a reliable commercial source and I received my Chinese chestnuts from a very gracious forum member (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I handled both identically. Mold issues with Dunstans were light to moderate but were very significant with Chinese. This tells me that while how we care for chestnuts once we receive them can encourage or discourage mold issues, exposure to mold spores at the source seems to be a much larger factor. Handling them properly at the source can reduce exposure, but a large factor can simply be the environmental conditions at the source.
Rather than going through my long list of mistakes (like using bleach) over the years, I'll tell you what my plans are for next year.
1) I will clean my chestnuts with cold running water and then soak them so they are fully hydrated.
2) I plan to go back to the ziplock bag with long-fiber sphagnum for the first 60 days of cold stratification rather than using my new system - <http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66820
The advantage of the new system is that it preserves orientation, but the disadvantage is that it does not hold and distribute humidity as well. Nuts tend to stay wet on the bottom where they sit on damp sphagnum, but dry out more quickly on the top. I have never had a root radicle form in the first 60 days and orientation does not matter until just before the root radicle is produced. I also plan to use multiple ziplock bags with about 10 nuts to the bag so if mold does become an issue, it won't spread to all the nuts.
3) 60 days should put me around the 1st of December. At that point, I will move them to my new stratification system (link above). At this point, they should have had sufficient cold and the right moisture level to be stratified. My strategy now is to get them to germinate while minimizing mold issue.
I plan to plant a try or two at this point as well for comparison. I generally don't have mold issues with nuts under the mix.
4) As nuts in the stratification system begin to produce radicles, I'll plant them through the month of December. When Jan 1st rolls around, any in the first 2 trays planted without root radicles that show no top growth, I'll count as lost and discard an reuse the cells. At this point I will plant all nuts regardless of whether they show a root radicle or not.
That is my plan for next year....
Jack

Are oaks a lot easier to sprout than chestnuts? These red oaks went from zero top growth to this in a matter of a days.. My chestnuts all look like the pic below. Very slow growth. Is this normal or should I do something different? Like watching paint dry (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

The one you show in your hand has a kinked root caused by changing orientation just prior to radicle emergence. That can cause issues later in the life of the tree.
Some oaks don't require cold stratification. Chestnuts can be touch because the are very high in carbs and require stratification. if the moisture levels are too low, stratification can slow or stop. Too much moisture makes conditions good from mold. Mold can prevent germination or make a tree grow funny or even damp out.
From the time the root radicle emerges, it can be several weeks before chestnut top growth emerges. This is when you start with Express 18s that prune the tap root quickly. I would expect that it would take even longer if one used a deep container since more nut energy would be poured into tap root growth rather than secondary and tertiary root development and top growth.
Once chestnut top growth begins, they can grow tall quite quickly under the right conditions.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Out of 108 cells, I had 12 that had gone over 2 weeks without top growth.
Tonight I pulled them to inspect. All were rotten - must have been away from heat and fan for too long at the wrong time. I put 11 dunstans and 1 Chinese in these 12 cells - tossed the rotten ones.
I put this tray with the new 12 closest to my fan and heater. We will get them dried out faster that way. I added 30 minutes to the fan at 2:30 PM which brings me to one hour out of the day.
Out of 6 trays - 4 trays are super! One tray (#5) is half good with the other half gaining height. The 6th tray has the 12 new chestnuts and my stragglers.
Never planned on planting 108 on my farm. Will give some away to friends - carry maybe 12 to 15 thru the summer. The others will go to my farm. See a large purchase of tree tubes approaching. Ha Ha.
One additional fact - I had switched to watering on the 3rd night and those 12 got too much water at the wrong time. Acceptable loss to this first timer. Will water on the 4th night at this point in their growth.
Thanks for reading my post.
wbpdeer

I had already cut the chestnuts from my five best trays earlier in the week.
Today - they went into the direct sunlight for 25 minutes by the timer on our kitchen stove (loud audio timer).
The tray with the white tape on the end are 18 Dunstans. My other trays are Chinese Chestnuts. We had a gentle breeze - my fan work in the grow box really helped the strength of all my stems. I am pleased with their strength.
All five trays were quickly moved onto a porch that is totally in the shade. No direct sunlight for them now - just normal outdoor air temps. I was hopeful I could do this project when I decided to jump in and try. Got started a little late - but am pleased.
Plan to plant two weeks from today - Saturday 4/18 - so first Saturday in May plant &amp; tube time + fabric on ground. Thanks for viewing.
wbpdeer

Looking good Wayne!
36 of my Chinese Chestnuts went in the ground a couple weeks ago.
I'm still babying 36 more trying to get a little more growth on them.

My taproots are getting longer &amp; thicker but still no top growth yet..

Plants look really good, Wayne. They will enjoy the sunshine. Good luck with the planting.

Curve &amp; Lake,
Thanks.
TDeaton,
Get that in some good growing medium. It will give you top growth.
I plant them much sooner than what your is showing.
wbpdeer

Wayne,
Your chestnuts are looking great! Just be gentle transitioning them to sunlight and don't try to rush them. I stunted the majority of mine last year throwing them right into full sun.
Unfortunately, the whole batch of nuts you sent me spoiled due to my own account. Between hunting season and overtime they ended up sitting on my work bench for over a month before I put them in the fridge. Hopefully I can get some off of you next year.
I've been pretty discouraged this spring so I haven't put much effort into my grow until this past weekend. While cutting wood I took a break to see if the trees I planted last year were showing any signs of life and sure enough, they're all budding out! With that discovery the fire has been re-ignited and I'm about to load my new table with acorns. I'll have to start a thread. I think you guys are going to enjoy what I've been working on.

Anyone that reads this thread and wishes to grow chestnuts under lights, send me a PM.
Give me your name and mailing address. I will put your name on my list for the fall of 2015. Believe I will limit my chestnut project to about 800 or 900 Chinese chestnuts.
Expect to provide 50 Chinese chestnuts for $6 to $7 bucks. My 2014 project went well for distributing them but this fall I am going to use chestnuts instead of corn in front of my game cameras.
Thanks
wbpdeer

It has been a rainy week with cloudy skies. Today I got all of my chestnuts in the direct sunlight for 65 minutes. Then I moved them to a shaded porch.
We had a very good breeze. The stems are doing great. One tray (the stragglers) has some chestnuts still attached. I baby set them so the squirrels didn't cause issues.
I am down to 3 out of the last 12 that have zero top growth. So 105 cells out of 108 have top growth. I will be able to get all chestnuts into the sunlight on Sunday based on the weather forecast.
Thanks for reading this post.
wbpdeer

After a growth spurt, my dunstans have seemed to stall out. No top growth past 6-8 inches or so. The leaves filled out and plants seem healthy otherwise. I'm careful not to overwater and I keep the lights as close as possible without burning them... Is this normal or do I need to make changes? If I figure out how to post pics with the new iPad I will(telling me the files too big)
Thanks guys

I just answered a pm about this. Go look at post #8 on this thread &quot;Growing Chestnuts Under Lights&quot;. Click on the attachment to see a photo of my fertilizer.
I purchased it at Walmart (Osmocote Plus). How long have your chestnuts been in their containers? I am growing in rootmaker 18s and next Saturday is planting day for me.
My chestnuts are getting sun right this moment - outside. The wind has tested the stem strength and mine are plenty strong enough.
I hope my answer helps you.
wbpdeer

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
I just answered a pm about this. Go look at post #8 on this thread &quot;Growing Chestnuts Under Lights&quot;. Click on the attachment to see a photo of my fertilizer.
I purchased it at Walmart (Osmocote Plus). How long have your chestnuts been in their containers? I am growing in rootmaker 18s and next Saturday is planting day for me.
My chestnuts are getting sun right this moment - outside. The wind has tested the stem strength and mine are plenty strong enough.
I hope my answer helps you.
wbpdeer
==================================
I got off to a real late start and had nuts sprouting the second week of March. I'm using RM 18's. As far as watering, I'm using tap water that sits a minimum of 24 hours or so. No direct sunlight yet. I have a little more time, still a little too early in northern NY, but planting time is coming fast!... On my way to try to get some osmocote plus. Thanks!

NY
I use acid to lower the pH of the water I give my chestnuts. Yoder collects rain water for his. Others do as well.
I went to a Hydroponics Store and they wised me up - I used acid to lower the pH. I prep three 5 gallon buckets at a time.
I am a month ahead of you on growing - I was building my indoor grow house in my basement and collect resources at the same time. I wish I had of got going the very first week of January.
Tap water can test around 7.0 to 7.2 on the pH scale. Chestnuts like it down toward 6.0.
I examined my seedlings this afternoon and what I have seen in the last 4 to 5 weeks is the diameter of the stems has increased. This is good because they have really increased the number of leaves. About one month ago I doubled the fan time from 30 minutes to two 30 minute sessions. I used an 8 inch oscillating fan.
The valuable information I gained reading the post on this forum made me a good grower. My plants are healthy because I listened to those that worked thru the problems.
Good luck growing your seedlings. It is addictive IMO.
wbpdeer

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
I use acid to lower the pH of my water. I prep 15 gallons at a time. Guy at the grow shop wised me up on this approach.
I used Osmocote Plus to fertilize when the top growth shows up. You learn quickly that chestnuts have large leaves.
They grow rapidly when they start.
Photos for your information.
Thanks for viewing this thread.
wbpdeer
==================================
How much fertilizer do you put on each plant

The $64 Dollar Question - all of us doing this for the first time wondered the same thing.
This is slow release fertilizer. I went with 8 to 12 pellets per cell.
Remember we only put this in the cells where we have top growth. Makes it easier if you reorganize the cells based upon progress - helps with light adjustment as well.
Try to get the top layer of each cell as level as possible. This helps avoid the osmocote settling into the low area of the surface. We want the fertilizer to feed the cells on all four sides of the root ball.
I went with a 2nd dose of fertilizer after I saw a large increase in the number of leaves and the size of the leaves. Chinese Chestnuts and Dunstans both grow very large leaves.
Please look at the post in this thread that has a photo of the growing media I used - it has the myc word. Sorry I will not attempt to spell it - please review that photo. That being present in the soil, helps with the root development.
The 8 to 12 pellets is a rule of thumb.
wbpdeer

Very addicting! As of tomorrow I'm setting up a rain barrel- water solved next... I picked up osmocote plus and just like mckaax, I was wondering at what rate you fertilize in the RM18's and if you mix it into the soil. Seems like that might not be so easy in a small container. Without advice, I'd probably just sprinkle on top and let the water take it to the roots

Thanks. We must've been replying at the same time! Didn't see that you answered before my post

No problem. I like see others that get the same passion for growing chestnuts that I did.
No top growth - no fertilizer.
Another process for me - no radicle appears then no movement to the rm cell. I grow in a box and my space matters.
Redonthehead got me interested in direct seeding. I put 9 in the ground. May have received too much rainfall - they may root on me. Was hoping for 3 out 9 in the beginning - now I hope for something.
Good luck.
wbpdeer

You grew them like a pro the first time you attempted to grow chestnuts; impressive!

Thanks Brush. I spent the summer of 2014 on persimmons as my learning curve. My goal was always Chinese chestnuts due to my father-in-law trees.
The Good Coaching from you, Jack Yoder, BigEight's threads, GraceNMercy and some others sure made me look good. I am amazed at how much time people on this forum share to help others. That is why I made distribution of chestnuts my 2014 fall project.
Got in my pocket and spent some $$ on good growing media, just stopped trying to cut corners or save a $1. When I realized if I spend the time, I want my rewards - my decision making improved.
I only had 12 rot due to watering issues in the grow box. Of the 12 replaced 9 of them have top growth.
I have really had fun with these.
wbpdeer

 

[yoderjac]

It is very addicting. Your trees look awesome! Next thing you know you'll be buying more rootmaker trays! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Matt

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by mattpatt
It is very addicting. Your trees look awesome! Next thing you know you'll be buying more rootmaker trays! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Matt
==================================
Got that right. I bought my first couple 18s and some 5&quot; bags from Big Rock trees. Even before that first season was over, I had established a commercial account with Rootmaker and purchased a case of Express Trays and 18s as well as a case of 1 gal RB2s.
Addicting is right...
I started with Dunstans. My list now includes: Persimmons, Jujube, Pawpaw, Crabapple, and Chinese Chestnuts.
Thanks,
Jack

Yes Jack, there is no end it seems. I went from 5 trays last year to establishing a commercial Rootmaker account, ordering a case of Express Cells and Express trays as well as a few 5 gallon root trapper bags. I also plopped down the money for a compressed bale of Promix BX. I went from intending to directly plant from the 18s to overwintering a vast majority of my trees and babying them for a second year in grow bags. This year I'm concentrating on mainly Chestnut varieties. Dunstan, American, Chinese, Chinese X American, Buck IV. Also throw in a few Bur Oak and some Allegheny Chinkapin as if I don't have enough to take care of. Planning to move everything that makes it to 1 gallon grow bags by August.
Yes, addicting indeed!
Matt

Stupid is as Stupid Does. Hello my Name has to be Stupid.
I cut chestnuts off my five trays. On the 6th tray I had some stragglers and some chestnuts that had not tolerated my watering schedule.
I put them outside on my front porch. Got by for five days. Came home today and a squirrel hit tray #6. I have five seedlings that were spared but lost 13 seedlings or chestnuts.
I have not seen a squirrel this spring since we cut a large water maple tree.
Hurts worse when you do it to yourself. Got busy and forgot an important detail. Lesson learned.
wbpdeer

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Stupid is as Stupid Does. Hello my Name has to be Stupid.
I cut chestnuts off my five trays. On the 6th tray I had some stragglers and some chestnuts that had not tolerated my watering schedule.
I put them outside on my front porch. Got by for five days. Came home today and a squirrel hit tray #6. I have five seedlings that were spared but lost 13 seedlings or chestnuts.
I have not seen a squirrel this spring since we cut a large water maple tree.
Hurts worse when you do it to yourself. Got busy and forgot an important detail. Lesson learned.
wbpdeer
==================================
You are not alone. I lost some myself. I forgot to remove the nuts off some of the ACs. Sure enough a ended up with squirrel issues. Of course, once I find them on the ACs, there must be some on the chestnuts too. If I keep diggin', I'm sure I'll find 'em. Crap...I'll just but this tree out of spite...
Needless to say, I now have a box trap on one deck baited with peanut butter. I'm thinking a forced conversion and baptism through submersion is in order. To back that up, I found some dicon and mixed it with peanut butter and put it on my top deck.

It was a very short ceremony this morning. The service was cut short when the applicant expired during the baptism.
For those prone to &quot;chicken little&quot; syndrome, please note that I have found a direct correlation between the chemical compound H2O and sudden death in rodents. Please be careful spraying this stuff on food plots. Who knows what effect it may have on deer! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
Stupid is as Stupid Does. Hello my Name has to be Stupid.
==================================
Count me in too. I lost many acorns on my first attempt, but I had as much trouble with chipmunks as squirrels.

My tree rats killed 13 seedlings on my birthday.
Just 10 minutes ago I set two live traps with the chestnuts I cut off my first 95 seedlings. So we may gather at the river too - hopefully right soon. These traps are borrowed and are effective - so no $$ spend out of my war chest.
I had allocated the chestnut seedlings that were destroyed. So I intend to make some tree rats pay.
wbpdeer

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
I had allocated the chestnut seedlings that were destroyed. So I intend to make some tree rats pay.
wbpdeer
==================================
You may have to put out a recall on some of those nuts you mailed out. If they could come back to you as seedlings you would be in business!

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
My tree rats killed 13 seedlings on my birthday.
Just 10 minutes ago I set two live traps with the chestnuts I cut off my first 95 seedlings. So we may gather at the river too - hopefully right soon. These traps are borrowed and are effective - so no $$ spend on my war chest.
I had allocated the chestnut seedlings that were destroyed. So I intend to make some tree rats pay.
wbpdeer
==================================
A quick hint on the traps...Don't use chestnuts, use peanut butter. Why the heck am I going into an enclosed space to get a chestnut when I can dig next to this plant like always....Second, peanut butter is not only very attractive (chunky works best bout smooth will also work), it is sticky and they can't easily pick it up and run. They have to stay and futz with it providing much more opportunity to spring the trap. Works for chipmunks too.
One more trick if you don't have pets. I also put a little Dicon rat poison mixed with peanut butter on my upper deck. No chance of a neighborhood dog going up there with the stairs blocked but squirrels will. I had a problem with raccoons climbing into a box blind with ears of corn from a nearby field and filling it with crap. The Dicon mixed with peanut butter worked for that as well.
Thanks,
Jack

Like many of us I get excited about growing chestnuts but it is a greater excitement to get them in the field.
On May 2 and May 3 got 26 chestnuts in the field. One tree line has 18 Chinese Chestnuts in a straight line. Holes were drilled the week before. Did weed eating and sprayed roundup on Saturday.
I am a diabetic and my energy level sometimes puts me down. Both Saturday and Sunday were bad days energy wise.
The second tree line across the plot we got 8 Dunstans in the ground. My son Jackson gets the major part of the planting credit. I think he plant over 20 of these. Kerry Rose and Hunter Wayne helped on Sunday with fabric, tubes, watering and distribution of plants, fabric, tubes, stakes, ties, etc.
It is important to me that years later they get the satisfaction of knowing they helped plant the trees that will improve their deer hunting. Too many kids don't connect with the land. My grandkids are involved with this project.
We used moisture mizer from the Wildlife Group and landscape fabric. I will water every 3 or 4 days for the first two weeks to help these chestnuts get rooted in good.
A couple of photos to show the project.
Thanks for reading this post.
wbpdeer

 

[yoderjac]

Job Well Done = Growing the seedlings from nuts, taking extra care in planting method, good plan for watering and maintenance, but most of all involving the youngsters in the project.

Thanks Lakngulf,
I did all of the extra planting stuff to get chestnuts sooner that most trees bare. Brushpile has convinced me this is how we get good trees. I can water at reasonable intervals.
Today will be the first time the grandkids see their photos on the qdma forum. They earned this recognition.
Both kids have killed deer in this bottom field. They have experienced a great deal in the outdoors.
wbpdeer

As I posted earlier, Redonthehead got me interested in direct seeding chestnuts.
So I took 9 Dunstans that had a radicle or one just emerging and put them in a bottom field. My goals were 3 out 9 then the rains set in and I just hoped for something.
Today (May 17th) I took inventory and held court. I think I have four that will make seedlings. One is up 7 inches tall with leaves. The other three are two to three inches tall with leaves about to break.
I dug up the ones with no top growth and discovered that some chestnuts were too deep and ran out of energy in the natural soil. Some chestnuts fail victim to large volumes of rain over a 5 day period.
Next year I will invest more effort on the sight preparation for direct seeding. I will drill a hole and kill the grass with roundup. I will mix some of my growing media with the soil to improve the chances that we get established.
This attempt I used heavy duty pvc pipe on some sites and that reduced my sunlight. Next year I will use wire cages to protect the chestnut from animals.
I will put some Osmocote Plus on these four next weekend to give them some help. If they do well enough I will put a water bucket by each one with 1/8&quot; holes so they have a chance - since we are headed toward warmer weather.
It appears I just may think about sticking two chestnuts about one foot apart in each location with one cage and probably get at least one tree going.
Others had positive influence on me trying direct seeding but Redonthehead emailed me a paper he wrote up his methods. After reading it twice, I knew I would go down this path. Hope these four become trees for me.
When you fill up a grow box and room is not available it is only natural to direct seed.
Thanks for reading this thread.
wbpdeer

I have about the same percentage germination and some are looking great. I do need some rain though

I direct seeded about a dozen Dunstans last year and protected then with 2' tree pro tree tubes. I dug out small hole with post hole diggers about 4&quot; down. I then added a layer of damp peat on the bottom then the nut (which had a radicle showing) and then more damp peat on top. Put tree tube on top and placed dirt around the bottom of tube. I had about 75% show top growth using this method and most survived that summer. This spring I only had two break bud out of the 9 or so that made though the summer.
Matt

Got 44 chestnuts planted. 42 in their final location on the farm. Planted 2 Chinese chestnuts in my back yard for source trees. Those will certainly be babied.
Of the 42 at the farm, 38 are seedlings planted grown under lights. Four were successful direct seed plants.
I am a state election official and I deal with 95 County Election Offices. We had our convention this week and I gave 18 top notch Chinese chestnut seedlings to five different friends from across the state. I could have given away at least 25 more.
It makes me feel good to know my seedlings will provide deer top notch food at different locations across the state.
I am carrying 15 in the large root maker pots thru the summer at home. They have been getting morning sun and it has agreed with them. They have shot up in height and are certainly reaching for the sky. The stems of this seedlings are strong.
Photo for your viewing.
Leaves are large and feel great to the touch.
I am pleased with this years project.
wbp

I had some stragglers - some the squirrels damaged and some I planted late.
You know when you go back to fridge and see what you had left over.
My squirrel proof cage is a blessing. In the future I will build at least one more cage if not two more. The good lord meant for squirrels to mess with nuts and they cost me two of my more outstanding seedlings that I had been measuring.
Got some photos for you to see my stragglers that turned out well and my protective cage.
Hope you enjoy.
wbpdeer

WPBdeer,Id love to see your place someday to take somepointers to mine.looking great

Better watch out, those squirrels might figure out how to open the gate!

 

[yoderjac]

LaknGulf
I used a large diameter pvc pipe at top and bottom to keep gates closed. You might be able to see the U clamp used to hold the pipe.
If they break and enter - b time to rack the old shotgun. I didn't want to kill any squirrels in town but I am tapped out on protection money.
DiamondHunter I thought we might be able to get a day I could come plant three of these stragglers on your place. Takes two to pollinate and I would give you three to see if we can get you going.
Got most of these promised or committed to locations but I have some to share I believe.
Thanks fellows.
wbpdeer

I have 3 chestnuts going that I'm not sure of variety. Nuts came from my uncles neighbor. The leaves are longer than dunstans. I have 18 growing in a root maker express 18 that I'm about to move to bigger containers. 10 are Dunstans and 8 are Benton harbor from big 8. I made a cage to fit over the rootmaker.
Funny thing about squirrels, is I killed 6 of those damn ground squirrels!!! 3 females and 3 males. I lost 3 early on when i thought I would plant 3 in my garden, unprotected duh!!!!

BuckFever,
I live in town and my troublemakers are gray squirrels. Got too many neighbors around for me to kill anything out of season.
Glad to hear you have some chestnuts going. They really are vigorous when they gain top growth - if you treat them halfway right they really reach for the sun.
I purchased some dunstans out of Pike County, Illinois and they grow well also.
People say the Chinese chestnut tends to produce more per tree - hope I am around to watch how that plays out.
Good luck to you getting your seedlings in the ground and established.
wbpdeer

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
BuckFever,
I live in town and my troublemakers are gray squirrels. Got too many neighbors around for me to kill anything out of season.
Glad to hear you have some chestnuts going. They really are vigorous when they gain top growth - if you treat them halfway right they really reach for the sun.
I purchased some dunstans out of Pike County, Illinois and they grow well also.
People say the Chinese chestnut tends to produce more per tree - hope I am around to watch how that plays out.
Good luck to you getting your seedlings in the ground and established.
wbpdeer
==================================
I have taken to forced conversion. I start with a havaheart trap baited with peanut butter on my deck with the seedlings. The same tub I use to water my 1 and 3 gal RB2s doubles as a baptismal for the for the forced conversion. Once the subject is in the havaheart, the baptism begins. I often get distracted during the baptism and go off to do something else. So far, none of the subjects have survived the baptism.
One note: This method of rodent control may be not be effective for Catholics who practice sprinkling verses emersion.
I lots a lot of AC and some chestnut to squirrels this spring because I did not start the forced conversions early enough. Next year I plan to start in March before the trees go outside.
In previous years, I had no issues as long as the nuts were removed. That wasn't the case this year.
Good luck,
Jack

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by wbpdeer
BuckFever,
I live in town and my troublemakers are gray squirrels. Got too many neighbors around for me to kill anything out of season.
Glad to hear you have some chestnuts going. They really are vigorous when they gain top growth - if you treat them halfway right they really reach for the sun.
I purchased some dunstans out of Pike County, Illinois and they grow well also.
People say the Chinese chestnut tends to produce more per tree - hope I am around to watch how that plays out.
Good luck to you getting your seedlings in the ground and established.
wbpdeer
==================================
Whp I also live in town, in fact in a townhome. Lol. We have a small courtyard with privacy fence so I got 2 rat traps and baited them with peaches. I hate those little squinnies worse than normal squirrels. I used canned peahes to catch the little bastards!!! That is the problem when people think they need to feed the birds and such. Ya attract rodents.
I will be moving these to root pouches and root builders 2. I want to see which one is better. Where did you get those root builders?
Those Benton harbor are suppose to be a Chinese hybrid I believe. My biggest one is a Dunstan in the root maker and it approaching 30 inches tall!
I have some dunstans I direct seeded last year in tubes. Some look good and some don't but I have 3 container Dunstan chestnuts from chestnut hill from 5 foot to 7 feet tall. 2 of them I bought and planted last year and one this year. One of the 2 from last year never looked like it was even growing with the one a 100 feet away growing like a weed. Well that one sure took off this spring and looks great. I think its alot of fun growing chestnuts at home. Hell some don't believe me cause they think chestnuts were a thing of the past.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
So far, none of the subjects have survived the baptism.
Jack
==================================
Amen, Brother. Preach On!

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I have taken to forced conversion. I start with a havaheart trap baited with peanut butter on my deck with the seedlings. The same tub I use to water my 1 and 3 gal RB2s doubles as a baptismal for the for the forced conversion. Once the subject is in the havaheart, the baptism begins. I often get distracted during the baptism and go off to do something else. So far, none of the subjects have survived the baptism.
One note: This method of rodent control may be not be effective for Catholics who practice sprinkling verses emersion.
I lots a lot of AC and some chestnut to squirrels this spring because I did not start the forced conversions early enough. Next year I plan to start in March before the trees go outside.
In previous years, I had no issues as long as the nuts were removed. That wasn't the case this year.
Good luck,
Jack
==================================
Jack that is hilarious!!! I have one of those homemade traps made with bucket, pop can on a dowel rod and a ramp with a instant baptism! Though I haven't it put it into action. I also caught a big *** mouse. Think I'm going to rebait my traps for any stragglers....going to try peanut butter and peaches!!!

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by buckfever37
Jack that is hilarious!!! I have one of those homemade traps made with bucket, pop can on a dowel rod and a ramp with a instant baptism! Though I haven't it put it into action. I also caught a big *** mouse. Think I'm going to rebait my traps for any stragglers....going to try peanut butter and peaches!!!
==================================
You might catch me with that combo. I can remember when I was a kid, my grandmother would make me peanut butter and peach toast. A great combo!

 

[yoderjac]

Reading all this great info has raised a couple questions in my feeble mind.
Diversity is nice, but how will having Chinese, Dunstan and American chestnuts affect pollination? I have 4 pure Americans growing behind the house. If I plant Chinese in the area will it have any effect on the nuts produced on the Americans?
Has anyone planted any variety in amongst wooded areas? How much direct sunlight is absolutely necessary?
I have gigantic pecan trees in my back yard. The squirrels have transplanted the nuts throughout my property. Deer have never been observed eating the nuts so I find them less desirable. the problem is that I have hundreds of these rats running around. I shoot at least 30 every summer trying to keep them out of my attic. If anyone comes up with an idea as to how to control these high numbers, please let me know.

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by Jack Terpack
Reading all this great info has raised a couple questions in my feeble mind.
Diversity is nice, but how will having Chinese, Dunstan and American chestnuts affect pollination? I have 4 pure Americans growing behind the house. If I plant Chinese in the area will it have any effect on the nuts produced on the Americans?
Has anyone planted any variety in amongst wooded areas? How much direct sunlight is absolutely necessary?
I have gigantic pecan trees in my back yard. The squirrels have transplanted the nuts throughout my property. Deer have never been observed eating the nuts so I find them less desirable. the problem is that I have hundreds of these rats running around. I shoot at least 30 every summer trying to keep them out of my attic. If anyone comes up with an idea as to how to control these high numbers, please let me know.
==================================
It depends on the laws in your area, but where it is legal, here is one approach. Mix rat poison with peanutbutter. Take a small diameter PVC pipe (1 1/2&quot; or 2&quot; at most) and cut a section about a foot long. Place the mix in the middle of the tube. Use a long decking screw in the middle of the tube and screw it to a tree at chest height.
The PVC pipe will prevent all domestic animals from getting to the poison. Squirrels seem to be the only thing that gets in. The peanut butter acts as an attractant but also helps keep the rat poison from spilling out as squirrels use it.
It is one approach to consider where it is legal.
Thanks,
Jack

It is my understanding that all chestnuts will readily pollinate with one another.
Matt

Quote:
==================================
Originally Posted by mattpatt
It is my understanding that all chestnuts will readily pollinate with one another.
Matt
==================================
That is my point. There is a huge effort to re-establish the American Chestnut by developing a cross that is blight resistant. If we have all these Chinese chestnuts throughout the country, can we ever get the American as a near pure strain?
If I remember correctly, the blight was brought to this country on Chinese Chestnuts in the first place. Are we dooming the efforts of many that are working to bring the American back?

Unfortunately there will never be a &quot;pure&quot; American. To my knowledge there has never been a pure American Chestnut found that was completely resistant to the blight. The trees that the ACF are working on are 15/16th crosses. That 1/16th is from Chinese which are resistant to the blight. The idea is that you develop a tree that resembles the American as much as possible while retaining the gene that provides resistance to the blight.
Yes, Chinese will pollinate with these trees so their offspring will have more Chinese in them than the parent tree. Won't hurt anything it just won't be a pure 15/16th cross.
I'm in a similar delima with my AU Buck IV Chestnuts that drop into November. I want to establish a small orchard of the trees so I can gather nuts that will be 100% crosses between two Buck IVs. This isn't that big of a deal considering there are no other chestnuts around so if pollination accord it wi be between two Buck IVs. My problem is that I would also like to plant some Dunstans as well and they will almost assuredly cross with the Buck IVs.
Matt

Jack,
1. I believe the American Chestnut will be restored to our eastern forest.
2. I don't believe that happens in my lifetime but will in my son's and grandson.
3. I intend to join the American Chestnut Foundation as a member when I retire in December.
4. The American Chestnut Society puts bags on their experimental orchards to prevent cross pollination.
Thanks for your question.
The last three words on my project - a Deer Project.
My goal is to help the deer. I wish I knew where one American Chestnut was located in middle TN. I don't and that is sad. It is what it is.
I wish more people would work at helping the deer habitat - I guess they do in their own way.
I am going to ship chestnuts to 25 states. I will lose money on this deal but I will gain great satisfaction knowing I helped the deer and friends too.
I am going to rely on the American Chestnut Foundation to stay on task and finally win their battle. I just don't think I will get to see that with my own eyes.
When I join their group and become a member I am going to post it on here. I admire the users on the forum that are members and post that in their signature line. I am not there just yet.
Right now I am going to be fronting the cost to mail many boxes at $5.95 a pop. After a reasonable amount of time the checks will come in but the US Post Office gets their cash up front.
I appreciate your questions and I am not upset with you. <i>You have pleased me greatly because you are one of the people in this project along with the rest of us.</i>
Where I planted my chestnut seedlings this April - I can't find a chestnut tree anywhere! Now I am changing that one seedling at a time.
Gosh I am sore from collecting Saturday morning. I need a blowing rain to give me more to collect.
Good luck to all habitat folks. (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
wbpdeer

Please understand, I am not criticizing anyone.
I thought about this when I remembered that I already have 4 American Chestnuts growing in my plot right behind my house. I hoped that in due time I might have American Chestnut seeds to spread around. Now I wonder if they will, in fact, be Americans or some diluted species.
I am 67 years old and have been around long enough to have seen instances where good intentions had unintended results.
Again, please understand I am not saying these things to put anyone off. I think what you are doing is wonderful. I just hope we all think back, 15 or 30 years from now, and thank you for your efforts.
My hopes are that the ACF will, one day, find a treatment to eradicate blight altogether.
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I am going to try some americans probably in 2016. Right now I need more experience. GraceNmercy in Houston has good luck with American Chestnuts.
My problem in my area it is ZERO chestnuts. When I get some americans I will put them on a ridge totally away from other chestnuts. I will dedicated one ridge to some chestnuts I think I am getting from some of brushpile's trees. We are waiting to see what nature shares - rainfall is up on the brushpile.
His trees came from Washington state.
I want diversity but I just want some. I have babied my seedlings I planted hoping I get them to bear sooner. I think in 2020 I see some burs - time will tell.
Not positive but I think I read somewhere the blight came from European chestnuts. If I am wrong on that - I want someone to point out the truth - I am late to the game and still building knowledge.
I am so glad you got in the project. I worked hard reaching out to people in various states. Next year I will do less or concentrate on another type of tree. Chestnuts I collect next year are going to a lease in Kentucky where it is legal to put feed down on the ground.
For my ground - some chestnuts are better than no chestnuts. I have Chinese and Dunstans at this time. They are leaf one.
Kentucky is open for archery but we don't have shooters on camera yet.
wbpdeer

When I receive the chestnuts from you I am going to raise them here in SC but half f them will end up being planted in PA. We have 165 acres of land there that my cousin takes care of the rest of the year and then I go up every year for archery season during the rut to bowhunt.
I only have 25 acres here at home. It is mostly mature sweetgum and red oak. I am thinning it in places to open the canopy but it is a lot of work and we can only burn so much wood in the fireplace insert. I am going to try to plant most of the chinese chestnuts in these openings I am creating.
Jack

Jack,
Sun has to be available to generate the nuts. Plant on the north side of the openings to maximum your sunlight.
My sources trees on my father in laws place are 7 steps apart. I am 5' 10&quot; tall to give some reference about steps.
Trees planted in an east to west line get better sun that trees planted in a north south line. The north south trees shade one another.
Think about your exact spots to place the tree - it makes a difference in nut output. I have learned this walking around the perimeter of bearing trees.
wbpdeer

 

[yoderjac]

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[Hoytvectrix]

Thanks Jack for saving this information.

I created a little grow operation this year growing chestnuts from seed. I had the seeds in cold storage for about 3 months and had about 95% germination. I have ended up with way more seedlings than I had originally intended, but this is a good problem to have.

The bad problem that I have is the supplemental lighting I am using. I am not all that familiar with supplemental lighting. After doing some reading, I found that you typically need to have 2000 lumens (at a minimum) and lights with at least 5000 K. The lights I am using are T5 LED shop lights that have 2300 lumens and 6500K. I have been running the lights at about 18 hours. Given the responses of the seedlings (see below), I have had to increase the number of lights per shelf and have had to try and get the lights as close the seedlings as possible. As it is, they are clearly not getting enough light (quality or quantity), as they are growing past the light bulbs in search for more and/or better light.

Does anyone else who has done this with chestnut or oak seedlings have any other advice? Should I just scrap the lights I have and go with a higher lumen bulb?

Also, I originally tried to purchase rootmakers but they were literally impossible to find. I am just going to make it work this year and hopefully can get some next year. I plan on eventually getting into oak and persimmon seedlings next year.

 

[yoderjac]

Yes. those trees look like they are starved for light. I will say that going vertical like your stand doesn't work well except for germination. Chestnuts grow very quickly. Tall spindly seedlings are an indication. I can't tell if the containers are root pruning type or not, but if not, that would be my first concern. You really need root pruning container's to start trees indoors. As for lighting, I use cheap shop lights. Don't worry much about color. It made no difference. The key is lumens. I started with 4' 2 bulb shop lights. The bulbs are about 2900 lumens each. 4 of these lights will cover about 6 express trays with sufficient light. Before I stopped growing trees, I was beginning to convert to bulbs to LED. I had to remove the ballast from the lights. They provided slightly more lumens per bulb, but they were a lower operating cost. If I were starting today I'd got with LED.

There are several keys to light. The most important thing is getting the energy to the leaves. Light energy diminishes with the distance squared. Because shop lights (especially LEDs) are cool they can be hung from chains or cords with prusic knots. This lets you keep the lights about 3" from the seedling tops. By organize the trees by height you can hand the shop lights at an angle so the bulbs are equidistance from all the tree tops. You need a lot of height in your grow area depending on when you start the nuts. The lights may need to move up and down several feet to accommodate seedling growth.

Best of luck,

Jack