Gly then tilling?

[SWIFFY]

I sprayed my brassica plots with Gly, 2 days ago. Will that have gone to the root yet? Its often 2 weeks or whatever before you can really see it dead but at what point has it taken affect and is it safe to disk it?

Thanks

 

[wiscwhip]

Even if THOSE plants are dead, when you disturb the soil via tillage, you will cause a whole new flush of weed growth.

 

[SWIFFY]

Ya so your advising I dont till it and seed into my thatch... Its thick thatch and it never turns out as good as when I lightly disk it and pack, etc.
Hmmmmm.....

 

[buckdeer1]

you can disc then spray again but they are right you will wake up a whole new crop of seed,what you may do if you have sprayed is to burn your thatch so the seed will have good soil contact

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I actually doubt you'll get that many weeds growing this time of year. If you get a timely rain the brassica will out compete it. That being said I have realized doing anything more that spraying, spreading, and mowing is a waste of time and money.

 

[SWIFFY]

Alright. You talked me into it. Ill just seed it. Its dead. Maybe ill just run a drag over it a lap or 2 to agitate it and get the seed to the soil. I had to mow first then wait a week and then spray because the weeds were way above my boom on the sprayer. Im sure it will turn out fine.

Thanks for twisting my arm fellas!

 

[yoderjac]

I sprayed my brassica plots with Gly, 2 days ago. Will that have gone to the root yet? Its often 2 weeks or whatever before you can really see it dead but at what point has it taken affect and is it safe to disk it?

Thanks

Depending on what you plan to plant, I'd minimize tillage in general. Tillage has a long-term negative impact on your soils and the deeper and more frequent the greater the impact. Most of the crops we plant for deer don't require much if any tillage.

Next, you did not mention what kind of brassica you planted. For some like Purple Top Turnip, the gly won't touch it. If it bolts and goes to seed, you have way too many plants per square foot and they will be stunted. It is best to terminate some brassicas like PTT mechanically.

As others have said, when you till you will bring up new weed seeds into the germination layer of the soil. If you are going to till, tillage will disrupt many weeds, so I would till first. I'd then wait for 2 or 3 weeks for the new weed seed you have brought up to germinate. Weeds are generally much more susceptible to herbicide when young and succulent. After the 2 or 3 weeks, next I would surface broadcast your seed (presuming you are planting a typical fall mix. Most don't require depth). If you have a cultipacker or roller I would use it next. If not, don't worry about it. Finally spray the gly. Gly will not impact the seed you just broadcast and it will kill the weeds easily giving your crop a jump on any weeds. Generally weeds are not a big issue with planting for fall to start with, but killing them with gly eliminates any issue. As you spray the gly, your tractor or ATV tires will help press the seed ensuring good seed/soil contact if you don't have a cultipacker.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[bbcoach]

Swiffy, I'm with you, I've always had better food plots when I break up the soil. I get better germination, the roots don't have to fight soil compaction and the resulting yield is better IMO. Jack and some of the others, believe in throw and mow and have some Great reasons for this practice. Brassicas planted in disced ground will outcompete weeds and grasses in the fall of the year. With good rain and fertilizer, they will definitely outcompete and Canopy over any grasses and weeds that might develop if you disc. If you want to experiment, disc half of your plot and do a side by side comparison. I personally like to disc, cultipack, sow the seed and cultipack again. Your choice.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I was skeptical of TNM my first year doing it but figured I wouldn't know until I tried. I was kicking myself for the first 2-3 weeks because it just didnt seem like I was getting the growth that I should have. I didn't do a side by side comparison but by the end of the growing season from what I saw there wouldn't have been any difference.

The plants will without a doubt take off quicker in tilled soil. If you have problems with the deer getting on them early and mowing them down maybe tillage is a better fit for you. I absolutely do not have that problem and find the TNM technique to be a good fit for me.

 

[wiscwhip]

Similar to what bb said above, next time you could try to till/disc first, wait a few weeks, spray your new flush of weeds, then broadcast seed and cultipack the new seeding.

 

[yoderjac]

Swiffy, I'm with you, I've always had better food plots when I break up the soil. I get better germination, the roots don't have to fight soil compaction and the resulting yield is better IMO. Jack and some of the others, believe in throw and mow and have some Great reasons for this practice. Brassicas planted in disced ground will outcompete weeds and grasses in the fall of the year. With good rain and fertilizer, they will definitely outcompete and Canopy over any grasses and weeds that might develop if you disc. If you want to experiment, disc half of your plot and do a side by side comparison. I personally like to disc, cultipack, sow the seed and cultipack again. Your choice.

I don't doubt your experience at all. I found the same was true for me in the short run. Plowing and tilling with high inputs have been used successfully for many years by farmers. No-till or min-till is more about long-term soil health, sustainability and reducing input costs as well as moisture conservation. Tillage introduces oxygen into the soil which speeds the consumption of organic matter. It destroys the soil tilth. Low organic matter reduces the habitat for microorganism that are important in nutrient cycling.

For farmers, no-till is more about increasing profit in both the long and short term. For us as deer managers, it is less about getting farm quality, high yield plots which don't really benefit deer. Deer are browsers. If your plots are being eaten to the ground, you are probably not working with enough acreage given your deer numbers to have an impact on the deer herd. Food plots are only a small fraction of a deer's diet. For QDM, the idea is to flatten the feast and famine spikes nature provides by filling the gaps. Feeding plots should be targeted to produce when nature is stingy. If there is any food left in the plot after the targeted stress period is over, then the plot did it's job. Food you plant that does not end up in the belly of a deer does not contribute to QDM. Certainly the excess is not an issue as the nutrients cycle back provided your soil has sufficient nutrient cycling capacity but the point is that yield is not of the same importance to deer management as it is to farmers.

The problem with your test is an apples to oranges comparison. One technique focuses on short term high input results and the other focuses on long term benefits. Just as an example, I started with a 2-bottom plow and used a tiller to till at full tiller depth. It produced a great looking fluffy seed bed with my clay. My plots looked great and as good as any farm. Over time I noticed my clay started to form a crust after rain and soybeans had a hard time breaking through that glaze. My plots slowly got worse over time. The better your soils, the longer it will take to see this effect. On prime farm land, folks have been successfully for generations. On marginal land like mine, the impact of tillage is evident much more quickly. I had reduced the OM which is what caused the clay soil surface to crust. The clay soil also compacted much more easily.

Back when I was first starting to understand the effects of tillage, Dgallow (from the old QDMA forum) did something tricky. He sent me a link to a "how to build a dirt road". The idea was to prevent water infiltration so you had a good hard road surface. The formula was exactly what I was doing with my tillage. The road wanted a high percentage of clay tilled deeply and then ground to a very fine powder and compressed = 2-bottom plot followed by tiller followed by heavy tractor broadcasting and covering seed.

My introduction to minimizing tillage was slow. In the first few years after I started plots did not look nearly as nice. It took several years to begin building OM. I'm still far from where I want to be. I'd love to be fully no-till, but that clay crusting is still an issue. I now still use a tiller but lift it with my 3-pt hitch so the tines barely touch the top inch. It is enough to break the crust and disrupts the vegetation but is not deep enough to have a big impact on soil tilth or introduction of oxygen to root depth. I'm not tilling deep enough to control most weeds, so I still rely on herbicides for that. My plots now look as good as when I was tilling with much less fertilizer cost because of nutrient cycling and I'm even applying less lime less frequently since I'm only topdressing it and it moves through clay slowly.

So, I have no doubt you have great success with tillage. As I suggested in the previous paragraph, there is also a difference between deep tillage and light tillage and the effect it has on the soil. For some, a light disk with a non-aggressive setting has a similar effect to my tiller set high. On other soils someone using a heavy disk with an aggressive offset may have much more impact getting several inched deep. And nothing turns the world upside down like a 2-bottom plow.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[bbcoach]

Jack, I understand your points, very valid in my mind. We don't disc very deep. It is normally the first couple of inches just to break up the topsoil and the debris on top. We have remote plots and utilize our ATV's with a pull behind ATV disc. NO Tractor with a 3 point, digging at 6-8 inches for us. I guess you could say we are Semi TNM, not True TNM. Break it up to get Good seed to soil contact for us. I grew up on a Massey 135 with a 3 bottom plow and disc behind it, in Southwestern Virginia clay, farming tobacco and gardening. I've seen the clay crust you describe and seen it become rock hard during the dry summers and believe in my senior years, less tillage is much better for soil health. Just want to clarify.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, I understand your points, very valid in my mind. We don't disc very deep. It is normally the first couple of inches just to break up the topsoil and the debris on top. We have remote plots and utilize our ATV's with a pull behind ATV disc. NO Tractor with a 3 point, digging at 6-8 inches for us. I guess you could say we are Semi TNM, not True TNM. Break it up to get Good seed to soil contact for us. I grew up on a Massey 135 with a 3 bottom plow and disc behind it, in Southwestern Virginia clay, farming tobacco and gardening. I've seen the clay crust you describe and seen it become rock hard during the dry summers and believe in my senior years, less tillage is much better for soil health. Just want to clarify.

Yes, in some conditions the vegetation can become so thick and matted that you need some way to ensure good seed/soil contact. In most cases when folks throw and mow. They broadcast the seed first and then mow. This does not work well if the weeds are fescue or some other kind of turf. I remember from the QDMA forum there was a good thread called "Thirt". It was very light disking to form a combination of thatch and dirt in that top inch. ATVs are light by comparison and you get less soil compaction.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[chucker66]

I have an issue where I am trying to get some old landing decks used when the place was logged for food plots. I have used the LC mix for a few years but it seems like they just won't get going. I think I am going to disc the this year instead of just TNM. I have a plot on this property that was just pine trees and have had great success with TNM but these other ones just won't get going. What are anyone's thoughts on risking these areas?
Chuck



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[bbcoach]

Chuck, here in Eastern NC we deal with pine plantations and old log decks. If you are going to put plots in, you have to deal with very low PH's and poor soil. I would recommend a soil test as my Number 1 priority. I'll bet the PH will be in the 4.7-5.0 range and will at least require 2 tons of lime per acre and probably closer to 3 tons per acre to get the PH up to the 6.5 range to grow anything. Get a test and see where you are, add the lime required and disc away.

 

[yoderjac]

I have an issue where I am trying to get some old landing decks used when the place was logged for food plots. I have used the LC mix for a few years but it seems like they just won't get going. I think I am going to disc the this year instead of just TNM. I have a plot on this property that was just pine trees and have had great success with TNM but these other ones just won't get going. What are anyone's thoughts on risking these areas?
Chuck



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Chuck,

I've reclaimed a lot of old logging decks on my property which is heavy clay. It takes a lot of work, but it can be done. Some of the decks I reclaimed were so bad that weeds would not even grow on them.

1) Avoid the problem to start with. If you are having logging done, specify in the contract that they will remove and replace top soil from all logging decks after decompressing them and plant them with Winter Rye (not fescue).

2) If you have an old deck, the first thing to do is to look for the topsoil. They usually bulldoze it into piles along the edges and it is filled with debris. If the deck is old, much the of the debris has decomposed making good OM in these piles. The first thing I do is use my tractor loader to reclaim as much of this as possible removing and debris I find.

3) Decompressing. Tillage is required to remove the compaction. Don't use a 2-bottom plow that turns over the soil. Instead use a subsoiler. Unless you have a very large tractor, you will need to work with a single shank subsoiler. This reduces the deep compression. Next I till (or disk) to full tiller depth. The soil tilth and microbiome is dead here anyway because of the heavy equipment compaction.

4)First season Planting - If I'm starting in the spring, I'll plant buckwheat. I'm far enough south that I'm on the ratty edge of double cropping it, but folks further north may not be able to do that. From this point out I minimize tillage as I'm trying to rebuild OM. If I'm starting in the fall I'll plant winter rye (after soil testing and fertilizing as needed). It may not grow great that first year, but with the tillage it will grow some. I like to add crimson clover to the rye. In my area, it acts as a reseeding annual and will grow in poor soil and rebound in the spring. This provides early spring food, boosts N, and provides vegetation for OM building.

5) Second season Spring Plant - I'll throw and mow buckwheat into the WR/Crimson in late spring (late June in my area). This provides more short term forage for deer and OM building. In the second fall, I'll plant the WR based mix again, but by now the soil will support Groundhog Radish. This provides organic tillage and helps with the compaction issues. Instead of using crimson clover, I'll use a perennial clover ( Durana is a good fit for my area).

6) I'll maintain the plot as a perennial clover plot until it wears out. By the time the clover wears out, the field will usually support any deer crop we plant.

Note: I'm in zone 7B and have heavy clay. If you are in a different zone or have sandy soil you may need to modify the above accordingly.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[kl9]

Speaking of brassicas, do you guys just plant them or do you put down fertilizer with them as well?


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[cavey]

I another option is if you get a good weed kill with significant brown up and given a little bit of time for the vegetation to dry you can burn off the stubble, the heat may kill some of some the surface weed seeds, broadcast in the seed and drag it into the surface, small seeds do not need much depth, driving over it will in effectively cultipack it in. You'll know where you have been and have not. You'll gain some ready nitrogen from the ashes. I've never been a fan of too much weed stubble - some can be very beneficial too much is just a pain and you wont get a good work up of the top soil.
I would choose one path or the other both have benefits and draw backs - embrace no till when you can and till if you cant - just dont do either half way. Ive taken my skid steer and back bladed the weeds off, broadcasted and just drove back and forth on it with my atv to push the seed in before only draw back is a pretty hard seed bed but it works cheap and fast. If you know you dont have a hard pan and are not running heavy equipment over the ground like yoderjack is saying you only need to get that seed in a little ways for good germination. Deep tillage isnt needed, your just feeding deer not trying to sell a crop to pay the bills - a little weed action isnt all bad - deer love weeds. Its the way mother nature does it, the seeds just drop on the ground and get stepped or rained into the soil.

 

[bbcoach]

Speaking of brassicas, do you guys just plant them or do you put down fertilizer with them as well?


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Brassicas LOVE nitrogen, up to 150 lbs per acre, so I personally add 46-0-0, 34-0-0 or 19-19-19 at planting and give them another dose at the 3-4 leaf stage (about a month later). Here's a Great read from Paul Knox https://iowawhitetail.com/forum/threads/brassicas.15388/ Paul is no longer with us but his teachings are invaluable. You can read ALL of Paul's teaching at iowawhitetail.com/forums for all plantings.

 

[yoderjac]

Speaking of brassicas, do you guys just plant them or do you put down fertilizer with them as well?


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I don't ever apply added N intentionally. I do use MAP to achieve my P requirements which does have a small percentage of N in it. The fertilizer recommendations for crops come from farmers who are planting monocultures and harvesting them. Only a few highly sophisticated soil tests which few use actually measure N. Most of the soil tests that most guys use don't account for banking and make an N recommendation based on the crop needs alone.

I don't plant monocultures and I don't harvest. I plant legumes along with brassica either in a mix or mixed rotationally. It is not uncommon for me to get 5 lb plus turnips and GHR as big as my arm if I plant them early enough. Leaves are nice and green with no yellowing. We as deer managers often rely on farming techniques. Many of them, but not all of them apply.

For folks starting out, I always recommend doing a soil test and following the recommendations. However, as you get more experience you will learn that fertilizer recommendations are a significant overkill in many cases especially when it comes to N recommendations. I'm to the point where I completely ignore the N recommendation and let the crop tell me if there is an issue. You can also send leaves to a lab for analysis to test nutritional content if you think it is needed.

The combination of crop rotation, non-harvest, minimizing tillage, and building OM improve nutrient cycling, reduce your input cost, and make your entire operation more sustainable.

Thanks,

Jack