I'd sure appreciate an opportunity to read a couple of papers that say air-pruned seedlings are superior to trees that are direct seeded into a final location. I assume these papers report empirical research and not a person's opinion. Could you point me in the right direction? Thanks
Field grown trees anyone?
- Thread starter ncstewart
- Start date
I'd sure appreciate an opportunity to read a couple of papers that say air-pruned seedlings are superior to trees that are direct seeded into a final location. I assume these papers report empirical research and not a person's opinion. Could you point me in the right direction? Thanks
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Too many to post here. Dr. Whitcomb's web site has tons of references to research papers: http://drcarlwhitcomb.com/ He did some of the first research on root pruning containers many years ago. He is the designer behind Rootmaker products so there is clearly a financial interest. I do use Rootmaker brand because I was able to establish a wholesale account that makes them price competitive with alternative designs. There are lots of competitors in the market these days. Some of them adhere to the underlying principles in the papers pretty well and others not much. Lots of folks have tried alternatives and had some pretty good luck with them as well. I'm not pushing the particular brand, it is just the one I'm most familiar with. The underlying concepts are very sound with lots of backup.
Having said that, I don't think it is a good fit for everyone in every location. More pictures and details are in the thread I linked in an earlier post, but here is the long and short of it:
The tube is 5' for reference. This is an example of a chestnut with just less than one growing season under its belt.
This is the same tree on August 2nd of the second growing season. This just demonstrates how these don't have they years of sleep and creep that you get with most bare root seedlings.
Admittedly, chestnuts grow faster than oaks and many other trees, but do you know any folks who direct seed and get 6'+ chestnuts with that caliper in one growing season.
I am far from an expert when it comes to growing trees this way. I've been doing it for a number of years now and made a lot of mistakes and had a lot of failures. I'm probably at an intermediate level and I'm sure there are folks who are doing much better than I am at it.
Again, like most things with management, one size doesn't fit all. This approach is just one useful tool that will fit well with some folks and situations.
Thanks,
jack
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
One of my direct seeded chestnuts has popped out of its 54" tube so far and it looks like a few more will. I think they'll put on some more growth this year but probably not reach 6 ft. That is in central PA. I think I hit the sweet spot on timing for getting the germinated nuts planted. They had time to grow the taproot and then started top growth just after last frost. One application of miracid fertilizer and they got watered a few times. We've had 18" of rain since I planted them with only a couple longer dry stretches. I am pretty happy with them.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
That is great! I think what impressed me about the rootmaker trees was not just the height but the combination of height and caliper. The tree you see in the previous post required 3 transplants. The nuts were started in 18s then transplanted to 1 gal RB2s and then two 3 gal RB2s and then finally in September in to the field.
Another factor to consider is the quality of your soils. When I direct seed, since my farm is so far away, the seedlings only get the fertility available in my soils. So, growth is slow for me. When I can control more factors with a containerized tree I keep on my deck, I can really get a lot more growth. Someone that is on more fertile ground my see less differential benefit.
Thanks,
jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Great observations and I think you got it right. Every time we perform wildlife management we selectively advantage one part of nature over another. Whether we are advantaging certain plants by the use of herbicide, hinge cutting, planting food plots, letting young bucks walk, we try to favor one over another. It is the same thing with the root pruning containerized trees. There are two factors at play here. For those of us that don't live near our final location for the trees, we can accelerate growth through optimizing the factors you describe during that first growing season. The second factor is the much denser more efficient root system. The efficiency of a root system is related to the number of tiny terminal roots. A deep tap root is sacrificed for much faster and denser root branching. So, when a tree is planted it is advantaged over trees of similar age spending energy on a tap root. While those trees have an advantage in a severe drought until established, if water is available during establishment, the efficiency of the root system makes better use of the available nutrients and water in the field.
However, you bring up a point that has not been discussed and it is a challenge to be overcome with rootmaker trees. If you use native soils as your medium in containers, you will likely get suboptimal results. The medium we use is very well drained with lots of small voids. This provides the area for the secondary and tertiary root branching to fill. In many places the native soils don't provide these characteristics. I have really had to work and study to deal with my situation. I have heavy clay soils. The difference between water infiltration between clay and promix can cause a lot of problems if you are not careful with planting. The promix can effectively create a pond in the clay during times of ample rain and conversely, the promix can dry out much faster than the clay during times of little rain. So, I could easily drown chestnuts in the spring and desiccate them in the summer in my area if I'm not careful.
For folks planting root pruned trees into heavy clay, here is the technique I use. First, I use a tractor auger that is very close to the size of the Rootbuilder II container I'm transplanting from. Next, I did a very deep hole. I amend the hole below the tree with a mix of native clay and #57 quarry stone (at least that is what hey call it here). I then cover that with a little clay and then insert the root ball. I fill the around the sides with unamended native clay. I also take care to make sure the tree is not planted in any kind of dip where ground water would run into the hole during rain. I plant so the top of the promix is about an inch above the natural soil level. I then create a small ramp using native clay. The idea is to prevent any ground water from draining into the hole and only rain that falls in the hold infiltrates.
The concept is this. During our spring time when rain is ample, I don't need to worry about it drying out. Any excess water will not say and give the chestnut wet feet, but will infiltrate below the promix and any pooling will occur below the root ball. Since these trees begin to grow almost immediately when planted, it doesn't take long for the roots to move out of the promix into the native clay. The native clay holds water well. So, the reason the hole is very close in diameter to the container is so that the lateral roots don't have far to grow to get sufficient water from the native clay during our dryer periods of summer.
Back to your final point which is a good one. Always be skeptical of studies funded by folks with commercial interest. In this particular case, I think it is reversed. Most of the older studies came first and that resulted in patents that were eventually commercialized. Fortunately, much of the research was published in professional peer review journals and subject to scrutiny.
As for "superior", I think that is highly subjective of the criteria one establishes. So, while I don't live an area where lack of water is a major issue and establishing larger trees faster that produce well is my goal, root pruned trees are a good fit for me. That doesn't make it the best way for everyone.
I'm happy to share my successes and failures with anyone who decides to go this route. I know Wayne (Wpbdeer) has really focused on helping guys with chestnuts specifically. I started with them but branched out to a number of kinds of trees.
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Stu,
Sorry if I came off as "educating" you. I remember you well from the old site. You are a highly experienced with all aspect of QDM especially trees. I was simply trying to address your points and educate those who are new to this. The advantage for me have truly been great compared to other things I've tried. I've tried to be clear about my situation and why it works for me because it is not the best approach for everyone. I was trying to educate those who are new growing containerized trees. The one thing I was trying to dissuade new folks from doing was growing trees from nuts in smooth sided containers.
You also make a solid point about longevity. I listened to one of Whitcomb's talks and he is really getting up there in age. He was quite young when some of this research started. There is probably reasonable data on 20 year longevity with rootmaker trees, but I doubt if it has been around enough with enough volume to have any hard data much beyond that. Longevity in tree terms (30, 50, 100+ years) is still an unknown with root pruned trees.
I'm still early in the process to declare victory with most of my efforts. Clearly cutting down and grafting native male persimmons with female scions has been by far my best bang for the buck in terms of me adding permaculture. I'm clearly getting an early advantage planting the rootmaker trees. Setup costs were significant, but the time is a cabin fever cure for me. I'm still trying to do trees in volume. I plant hundreds per year. I'm cutting back on numbers to focus on fewer bigger healthier better protected trees, but I'm still trying to add significant volume. Trees are a long-term investment. It will be quite a few more years before I can declare victory or admit defeat.
By they way, regardless of the occasional tongue lashing, I really do appreciate your contribution. I like being challenged because it always causes me to look at problems differently. You always do it respectfully and I appreciate that as well. And if I do look back at this and decide I was foolish, it wouldn't be the first time and probably wont' be the last.
Thanks,
jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Nope. Once the tap root is pruned it is done. Basically you transplant trees from container to container according to the 4" rule or some approximation and then plant them. If properly planted roots grow quickly onto the native soils and continue to grow like normal roots. Most of the nutrients are in that top layer of soil and the efficient root system are efficient at uptake. However, you never get the top root again. That is why I would not recommend this approach for areas with a deep water table that is prone to prolonged drought.
Thanks,
Jack
ncstewart
5 year old buck +
Ok thanks. Learning a lot from y'all.
I think I will take a balanced approach just like I do planting! Never like putting all my eggs in one basket.
I think I will do a little bit of everything until I see what works for me.
Any trees Jack you recommend not growing with the root maker system?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think I will take a balanced approach just like I do planting! Never like putting all my eggs in one basket.
I think I will do a little bit of everything until I see what works for me.
Any trees Jack you recommend not growing with the root maker system?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
So far, I've successfully root pruned the following trees:
Chestnut, Hazelnut, Persimmon, Dwarf Chinquapin Oak (DCO), Allegheny Chinquapin, Pawpaw, Pear, and Crabapple from seeds and nuts. I've used them for cuttings for Jujube (root cuttings and sprouts), Elderberry, and Yellow Twig Dogwood. That is the limit of my hands-on experience. Persimmon and Pawpaw are both very long tap rooted trees. I had an extensive discussion with Cliff England (England's Orchard) who specializes in these and he told me they would respond to root pruning and he was right. So far, I have not found a tree that was problematic to root pruning. My largest challenges are related to cold stratification and moisture for germination. Too dry and stratification slows or stops; too wet and mold sets in. Once germination occurs, there are always a couple individual trees that are deformed or just don't do well and I cull them.
You are smart not to put all your eggs in one basket. I too tried several approaches including direct seeding, and bare root trees. John at BigRockTrees (sponsor of this form) was a great help when I first started. I bought my first few rootmaker containers from him for testing. He was a great resource both for tips on using them as well as with cuttings. I'd highly recommend him if you are buying a few containers. Once I convinced myself that I was willing to do this in volume, I established a wholesale account with rootmaker.
I haven't found any trees that did not respond well to the container system but that doesn't mean there aren't some.
As for containers, I like the 5" roottrapper bags for cuttings like elderberries with wide bud spacing. They are taller than 18s and you don't have cuttings sticking up so much that they are easily bumped and the roots torn when first rooting. I like the express tray 18s over the regular 18s. The cells are sturdier and last much longer without cracking. They can be reorganized within the tray. This is important so that trees of the same height can be next to each other to allow fluorescent lights to be adjusted to hang close to the trees when starting them. For my area, I like 1 gal Rootbuilder II containers for the first stage after 18s and 3 gal RB2s for the second stage. My decks are setup so they are shaded from the hot afternoon sun so the black plastic is less of an issue than it would otherwise be. Unlike some of the other brands, the bottoms are solid with root directing ridges and shape. This lets me place the containers directly on the ground. Some containers like bags will let roots grow through into the ground. I've seen another design with a grid at the bottom but again, I think they could get roots growing into the ground so the surface used may be limited. The feature I like the best is the fact that they unwrap at transplant time. The rootball is completely undisturbed when you transplant so there is little if any transplant shock.
Thanks,
Jack
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
I started using some rootbuilders last yr. Sawtooth, Chinese Chestnut, and Persimmon. So far it's been a blast growing trees from seed. I also started each of these species through direct seeding. I find it easier to water 20 trees under the deck than 20 trees out in the pasture. Unfortunately, I don't know which will ultimately be the best system. I just like to tinker and see what happens.
I do find it interesting that these trees have the genetic codes to produce multiple types of root systems and which set of instructions to use is determined by environmental factors. I also find it interesting that the first set of instructions, the go-to plan... is always a taproot. Only if conditions are not favorable for a taproot do they go to plan "B". Drought, bed rock, soil types, etc... could all be variables in deciding which set of genetics would be most useful, or the organism could just adapt based on it's needs...
I do find it interesting that these trees have the genetic codes to produce multiple types of root systems and which set of instructions to use is determined by environmental factors. I also find it interesting that the first set of instructions, the go-to plan... is always a taproot. Only if conditions are not favorable for a taproot do they go to plan "B". Drought, bed rock, soil types, etc... could all be variables in deciding which set of genetics would be most useful, or the organism could just adapt based on it's needs...
kabic
5 year old buck +
I had the same thoughts. I didn't want to baby trees under ideal condition and then have them died when planted at their final location. I also wanted to start them at home, so I planted them into 5 gallon buckets. Half the dirt came from the farm, and the other half, which has more sand, came from the cities yard waste area. I figure the five gallon pails are deep enough to give the tap root some room.
I made my fair share of mistakes the two times I tried it, but cant say the container\dirt was the cause of any of my problems. My mistakes where along the lines of over watering (tried a bottom watering gutter system that I would say didn't work well); over wintering in container problems; letting trees get scorched on the south side of the house when I went on a business trip; and this year letting squirrels get to the seedlings.
The 2 trees out of 12 that survived the squirrels are looking really good this year. I plan on planting in the fall, cage and mulch really good and hope they survive the winter.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Over watering can be a function of the containers/medium. Years ago, I tried some 5 gal buckets. Sure enough, the tap roots circled the container. We planted those trees on a military base. They did well for quite a few years and then just stalled. I now suspect root constriction.
So far, the only issues I've had with fielding the rootmaker trees is trying to plant directly from 18s. While they had well developed root systems for their size, the total area was simply not enough to sustain them without supplemental water. Many died, some survived, but few thrived. When planting from 1 gal RB2s in late spring all the trees survived and more thrived. When planting from 1 gal RB2s in the fall after most of a growing season all survived and even more thrived. When planting from 3 gal RB2s in the fall after most of a growing season, they all seem to thrive. Theses have gone from 18s under lights, to 1 gal, to 3 gal in the first season before final planting in the field.
Thanks,
jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
The entire subject of epigenetics is fascinating both in deer and in plants!
kabic
5 year old buck +
I'm sure it can be, but I'm using the exact same dirt and containers this year with much better results. My previous attempt was a gutter system where the buckets draw up the water from the bottom. They had a little net pot protruding from the bottom of the bucket into the gutter to wick up water. I think that system just didn't work well.
Not the best picture but kinda of shows what I was trying.
This year I took those same buckets dumped out the dirt, removed the net pots from the bottom, covered the bottom hole with landscape fabric and put in the same dirt. Much better results.
Here is a photo from a couple of weeks ago, they have put on some good growth since then. In the hotter period of the summer I had them in a shadier location, now that it is a little cooler they are in a sunnier location. I wish I would have not let a squirrel get the other ones because I have a good feeling on these ones. I didnt have any issues with multiple shoots like my first attempt. I believe that is indication of too much water.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Great picture and interesting approach. I love to see folks experimenting with different techniques. I know a number of folks have played with landscaping fabric to play the role of the root trapping fabric RootMaker uses in their bags. I have not seen landscaping fabric combined with buckets before . Interesting approach!
Thanks,
jack
Thanks,
jack
I have tried direct seeding pecan and black walnut and as others have said rodents can wipe them put. I would not try that method without planting lots of nut with an open field planted the fall before in winter wheat and then killing the winter wheat in the tree rows with glyphosphate. If direct seeding near a wood line , I would try protecting the nuts with roof flashing cone/collars like the chestnut folks due and then using tree tubes. When comparing bare root seedlings with container grown seedlings my recent experience relates to 2 rows of SWO spring of 2013. One row was MO DOC seedlings ("XL" that year) bare root and the other was container grown SWO from Forest Keeling in 3 gal short pots. Eyeballing the 2 rows this year they are about the same size after 2 and a half years and both have acorns this year. Both rows have had the optimum treatment I could provide, 30" tree shelters, 2x4" wire cages, glyphosphated the ground around them , osmocote the year of planting and granular fertilizer the next year and this year. My farm is in the Ouachita mountain foothills in western Arkansas with thin gravelly soils and significant slope. The slope does allow for a primitive drip irrigation system based on 275 gallon IBC totes. In 2013 I also planted some Dunstan seeds from Chestnut Ridge of Pike Co in 4" Anderson plant bands and in early July of that same year planted the seedlings in 30" bluex tree shelters. Some of those trees planted from a seed in 2013 now have as many as 11 burs. I do think it important to twist off the chestnut from the seedling when planting in the field especially with the black bear problems we have in my area. Good luck. Lane
"Too many to post here.
Having said that, I don't think it is a good fit for everyone in every location. More pictures and details are in the thread I linked in an earlier post, but here is the long and short of it:
The tube is 5' for reference. This is an example of a chestnut with just less than one growing season under its belt.
"This is the same tree on August 2nd of the second growing season. This just demonstrates how these don't have they years of sleep and creep that you get with most bare root seedlings.
Admittedly, chestnuts grow faster than oaks (emphasis added by OS) and many other trees, but do you know any folks who direct seed and get 6'+ chestnuts with that caliper in one growing season.
jack
Oakseeds sez .....Your first photo of a chestnut in a tube (apparently the first growing season) suggests it is over 5 foot, perhaps approaching 6' Your second photo indicates the chestnut tree has grown maybe another 18-24 inches (being generous - during the second growing season) and you say it doesn't creep. How about a direct-seeded swamp white oak that is almost 12 feet in just a tad over 4 years. That would make that slow growing (oak relative to a chestnut you say) SWO a pretty good tree ... don't you think? The measuring pole just to the right of the trunk of this SWO is 10' 3"
Here is a direct-seeded Bur Oak that is a tad over 3 years old ... notice it's overall height, shape, caliper, and structure(crown in relation to straight trunk).
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Catscratch
5 year old buck +
OakSeeds - how are you direct seeding? I see buckets or pots around most of your trees...
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
That is a great tree! A 12 foot tree in 3 years with that caliper is outstanding. That would never happen in my soils, but I don't at all doubt your success.
As for the chestnut I posted, it was over 6' tall and 3/4" when planted near the end of the first growing season. It had only slight growth before going dormant last year. No, I would not call it creep. There are really 3 factors that one considers for growth, height, caliper, and leaf surface area. Trees take different forms, especially Dunstans. I had another tree that year with the same caliper that took more of the Chinese form. It was just as well developed but because of the early branching was shorter.
So, if you look at the last picture, I think you are right. The tree is about 8' tall, but if you look closely you see it is also beginning form branches putting on significantly more leaf surface. The picture was taken Aug 2. Our growing season lasts through late September. I'll take another picture at the end of the second growing season. Once my chestnuts are planted in the field, they are on there own. I don't have time to care for the volume of chestnuts I've planted.
So, to compare apples to apples, the best of the direct seeded chestnuts I have in my soil with my climate have 3 seasons under their belts and are smaller than this tree was when planted after 1 season. Once again, this method works very well for my with my conditions but it may or may not be the best method for folks in different conditions in different areas.
Thanks,
jack
