Feeding deer

[sandbur]

We can’t feed in either area I hunt due to CWD regulations.

Foodplots are OK.

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[4wanderingeyes]

I have 3 food plots that are between .5-.75 acres each, but this past year I was busy building on most of my time spent there, and I didnt have much time dedicated to food plots. I pretty much just tossed seed on top, and it barely grew. Not much food provided by me for the deer this past fall.

 

[MRBB]

There is no way to prove this as fact because deer were never tested yrs back. It is also a stretch to state that in todays deer herd disease is common.

based on say the past 30+ yrs you dd NOT hear of folks seeing sick deer as often as we do now, or folks finding as many dead one's
from CWD , blue tongue to??
and lets not forget that hunter numbers are WAY lower now than they were 20 yrs ago

so no testing back then?? OK, but you had more eye's on things
and butchers didn;t find as many issue;s as today
SO
maybe not official FACTS
but I would still say its more common now than yrs back by a LOT , for deer to get sick from things were finding now, and didn;t seem to have yrs back as common place!

 

[4wanderingeyes]

based on say the past 30+ yrs you dd NOT hear of folks seeing sick deer as often as we do now, or folks finding as many dead one's
from CWD , blue tongue to??
and lets not forget that hunter numbers are WAY lower now than they were 20 yrs ago

so no testing back then?? OK, but you had more eye's on things
and butchers didn;t find as many issue;s as today
SO
maybe not official FACTS
but I would still say its more common now than yrs back by a LOT , for deer to get sick from things were finding now, and didn;t seem to have yrs back as common place!

But there wasnt social media like there is today. Where you hear about everything from every corner, and everywhere in between as it happens, and if the news did find out about it, it was more then likely near a big city, and hunting stories were never front page.

As for more boots on the ground, those boots were also spread out a lot more then today, since now there is less woods to hunt then back then. Now you pretty much have a city slickers house in every 20 acre woods, and that city slicker probably wont allow hunting.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

based on say the past 30+ yrs you dd NOT hear of folks seeing sick deer as often as we do now, or folks finding as many dead one's
from CWD , blue tongue to??
and lets not forget that hunter numbers are WAY lower now than they were 20 yrs ago

so no testing back then?? OK, but you had more eye's on things
and butchers didn;t find as many issue;s as today
SO
maybe not official FACTS
but I would still say its more common now than yrs back by a LOT , for deer to get sick from things were finding now, and didn;t seem to have yrs back as common place!

Finding dead deer from CWD or blue tongue? Are these dead deer being tested to find out what was the cause of their death?

Hunter numbers may be well below what they use to be but I'd be willing to bet (cant prove) that the amount of total hours afield today is higher than it was in the past with more hunters. People in the past just didn't observe deer as much as they do today. You walked out in the woods opening morning and shot the first deer you saw.

What is it that butchers are finding? Just asking because I havent heard this one.

 

[MRBB]

But there wasnt social media like there is today. Where you hear about everything from every corner, and everywhere in between as it happens, and if the news did find out about it, it was more then likely near a big city, and hunting stories were never front page.

As for more boots on the ground, those boots were also spread out a lot more then today, since now there is less woods to hunt then back then. Now you pretty much have a city slickers house in every 20 acre woods, and that city slicker probably wont allow hunting.

I will say I will have to disagree with you
yrs back HUNTERS had tons of media, just NOT as instant as today'
s hunting magazines ruled far and wide in hunters hands, dr offices, schools an else where, and covered things in state by state info

many states have huge sections of public land(PA well over a million acres) and has/had hunting camps WAY back when in higher numbers than today with even more gun and sportsman clubs that owned thousands of acres
SINCE then, many YES have been sold off to development, but that again, says, yrs back you had HUNTERS in more places and didn;t find all these deer issue's

I knew hundreds of hunters that took weeks or more off for hunting and sp[end long hours in the woods
Today, in the hunting camps I belong to and go to and visit, you have fractions of the hunters, very few spend more than few hours a day in the woods, VERY few dark to dark hunters as to in the past!
I had a gun shop for yrs too, and talked to thousands of hunters daily for yrs
so this isn;t just a Guess here, this is facts in MY area and most of PA
I hunted 5-7 states a yr for almost 25+ yrs too, and longed in a LOT of hours every yr in the forests and fields across the USA

todays generation of hunters and NOT gashing, just saying
hunt more private lands now than ever and they have food plots and groomed lands for deer, and they < MANY I know, hunt LESS hours per day, they tend to ONLY hunt PRIME hours, and spend MOST of there time ON THERE lands

yrs back hunters hunted LOTS of lands, hoping the grass was greener else where if they didn;t score in a few days where they were and very few groomed there lands JUST for deer hunting
we also had higher deer numbers, over a million in PA and over a million hunters
and we did NOT find sick deer as we find now

like it or not, when an army of over a million go out in the woods and forest, that is a LOT more eye's on things than smaller pockets of hunters
, so if smaller numbers of hunters are finding problems, odds are the problem is larger than smaller in the whole!

pollution I think is also a part of problems, as water quality is NOT any where near what it once was, and THAT has to be effecting wildlife IMO

 

[MRBB]

Finding dead deer from CWD or blue tongue? Are these dead deer being tested to find out what was the cause of their death?

Hunter numbers may be well below what they use to be but I'd be willing to bet (cant prove) that the amount of total hours afield today is higher than it was in the past with more hunters. People in the past just didn't observe deer as much as they do today. You walked out in the woods opening morning and shot the first deer you saw.

What is it that butchers are finding? Just asking because I haven't heard this one.

yes countless deer found dead are being tested these days, due to the worries of things spreading and well, , deer numbers drop, hunter numbers drop and well the MONEY hunters spend goes away, so game depts are worried more now than ever! IMO

I again DOUBT the number of hours spend in the woods for hunters today is HIGHER than yrs back, NOT with the few thousands I talk to any how
Many kill there DEER first time out as before, just quality is higher on the deer , due to they hunt prime land now as to public lands before!@

and I NEVER said, anything about butchers finding "X"
I STATED<
yrs back butchers DIDN"T find things, like they are today
Many deer brought into butcher shops have been found with issue's
tumors are more common now than EVER.
(I worked at several butcher shops over the past 30+ yrs and still do)
and deer with strange issue's draw attention at butchers shops and more are found NOW than the first 20 yrs for sure that I worked in them!
we have always contacted the local game warden too, and several have been taken away and been told NOT to EAT it!
what actually was wrong??
not sure, didn;t get follow up's

but they do check butcher shops OFTEN to find out HOW things are going, as well as checking for proper tagging

like it or not, modern times, ain't the healthiest for anything, from humans to critters < just is what it is!
wish it wasn't but?
populations grow, and so do problems caused by it!

 

[jsasker007]

Years ago no one heard about anything due to the fact it took a lot more effort to spread information over any distance. Now we have the internet and news travels around the world in seconds.

 

[FarmerDan]

I get into this debate on this site and others frequently...there is NO harm to feeding deer. I've been feeding deer for decades. There has been literally millions of tons of protein pellets fed to deer and uncountable tons of corn fed with never a reported problem. There have been studies done on supplemental feeding of deer by some of the finest research institute in the country including the Noble Foundation, CKWRC, TWA and others. Never a reported problem . It is only ' theorized' that feeding ' might' cause a problem, yet no research to support this has ever happened.Feed whatever your pocket book and situation support.

Willy's comment on corn is worth considering. Deer do need to develop gut flora if not a part of their regular diet. Build up slowly at first. But corn would be a good choice for the time of year when deer need energy especially in conditions as you describe.

All this from a southern boy where cold means almost freezing and snow is sprayed on a Christmas tree from a can.

I would contend that, "done right," there is NO harm to feeding deer. That you have been feeding deer for decades is different than suddenly throwing corn and protein pellets into a snow bank when there is no other fiber and/or browse around . The ground is hard. The trees are stripped and the only thing left is the supplemental feed. It's like me diving into a half gallon of ice cream and/or a fifth of Makers! It probably won't kill me immediately, but if I don't find some endive soon after, I would be a happy, but unbalanced digestively! LOL? We don't think in terms of balancing a deer's diet. We can only hope they do! While supplemental feeding, how does one find the balance, or does it not matter?

I have not read the research you cite, but suspect it's not done in the situation where those in the cold, snowy north find themselves.
And, I guess my other concern for those who only consider feeding under the worst conditions is, can we do enough to make a difference? Or does the wallet go empty before we can see the task thru to the end? Let's assume 20 deer. How many tons of dry matter do we need to supply everyday to get where we want to go?

I'm sorry. Bottom line for me is, I've saving my money for ice cream and bourbon!
Gosh! That sound really harsh (:<)

 

[sandbur]

Finding dead deer from CWD or blue tongue? Are these dead deer being tested to find out what was the cause of their death?

Hunter numbers may be well below what they use to be but I'd be willing to bet (cant prove) that the amount of total hours afield today is higher than it was in the past with more hunters. People in the past just didn't observe deer as much as they do today. You walked out in the woods opening morning and shot the first deer you saw.

What is it that butchers are finding? Just asking because I haven't heard this one.

yes countless deer found dead are being tested these days, due to the worries of things spreading and well, , deer numbers drop, hunter numbers drop and well the MONEY hunters spend goes away, so game depts are worried more now than ever! IMO

I again DOUBT the number of hours spend in the woods for hunters today is HIGHER than yrs back, NOT with the few thousands I talk to any how
Many kill there DEER first time out as before, just quality is higher on the deer , due to they hunt prime land now as to public lands before!@

and I NEVER said, anything about butchers finding "X"
I STATED yrs back butchers DIDN"T find things, like they are today
Many deer brought into butcher shops have been found with issue's
tumors are more common now than EVER.
(I worked at several butcher shops over the past 30+ yrs and still do)
and deer with strange issue's draw attention at butchers shops and more are found NOW than the first 20 yrs for sure that I worked in them!
we have always contacted the local game warden too, and several have been taken away and been told NOT to EAT it!
what actually was wrong??
not sure, didn;t get follow up's

but they do check butcher shops OFTEN to find out HOW things are going, as well as checking for proper tagging

like it or not, modern times, ain't the healthiest for anything, from humans to critters < just is what it is!
wish it wasn't but?
populations grow, and so do problems caused by it!

Tumors are more common in older animals. If hunters are killing older deer, probably more tumors.


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[Baker]

I would contend that, "done right," there is NO harm to feeding deer. That you have been feeding deer for decades is different than suddenly throwing corn and protein pellets into a snow bank when there is no other fiber and/or browse around . The ground is hard. The trees are stripped and the only thing left is the supplemental feed. It's like me diving into a half gallon of ice cream and/or a fifth of Makers! It probably won't kill me immediately, but if I don't find some endive soon after, I would be a happy, but unbalanced digestively! LOL? We don't think in terms of balancing a deer's diet. We can only hope they do! While supplemental feeding, how does one find the balance, or does it not matter?

I have not read the research you cite, but suspect it's not done in the situation where those in the cold, snowy north find themselves.
And, I guess my other concern for those who only consider feeding under the worst conditions is, can we do enough to make a difference? Or does the wallet go empty before we can see the task thru to the end? Let's assume 20 deer. How many tons of dry matter do we need to supply everyday to get where we want to go?

I'm sorry. Bottom line for me is, I've saving my money for ice cream and bourbon!
Gosh! That sound really harsh (:<)

I agree with almost everything you have said here except ...ice cream AND a fith of Makers Mark. I like them both but together thats a rough combination.

Indeed most of the research I'm familiar with is more southern . Nonetheless I 'think' the principles of effective feeding are the same everywhere. Also agree that throwing some corn or pellets in a snow bank when nothing else around isn't a great approach. As I stated in my previous post..."Can supplemental feeding be done poorly...sure but its not rocket science." And it always includes a financial consideration to determine worth.

Were I in the OP's situation I would start feeding high energy ration [ probably corn ] in free choice gravity feeders BEFORE the winter stress period came in full swing. If deer aren't accustomed to corn start slowly but they adapt physiologically quickly. I would spread several feeders all over the property... I have a feeder per 60 acres here on the farm and a feeder per 150 acres at ranch. I would continue corn till antler drop [ or snow melt; unfamiliar territory for me } when I would switch to an 18% protein ration which I would continue till green up. This would cover the major northern stress period and help ensure overall health of the herd.

And of course I would manage the population to the habitat vs. letting an uncontrollable winter kill do it for me.

 

[MRBB]

Tumors are more common in older animals. If hunters are killing older deer, probably more tumors.


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fine and dandy but here were finding them on young doe and button bucks that have been shot and bought into be butchered!
so your thought might be right, but not 100%

 

[MRBB]

Years ago no one heard about anything due to the fact it took a lot more effort to spread information over any distance. Now we have the internet and news travels around the world in seconds.

yes yrs ago we all lived in caves and never had any means to sharing info before the world wide web'NOT!!
info has been passed on since pretty well the past few hundred yrs in many forms, besides the web?

and the world wide web as been about a LONG time now, yet its just the past say 10 yrs or so, that so many are finding so many health issues with deer.
so, I again still say
there is more going on now than yrs back, and this is my point, not a bash or a hate or??
face it, us humans cause a lot of health issues by things we do, for both animals and humans

just look at how many places that FISH cannot be eaten due to water issue's or limits on how many you can consume
places with air quality issue's


feeding deer , like it or not COULD be causing them problems, even though intentions are good
a LOT of chemicals are used to grow corn these days, as well as countless other crops and plants we grow and feed to deer!


Just saying!

 

[sandbur]

Tumors are more common in older animals. If hunters are killing older deer, probably more tumors.


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fine and dandy but here were finding them on young doe and button bucks that have been shot and bought into be butchered!
so your thought might be right, but not 100%

Are they the fibromas which are probably viral induced? Those are usually cauliflower type growths. Think of them as a big wart.


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[4wanderingeyes]

Do you have any pictures of the tomors Just wondering what and where to look for them. I process my own deer, and always have, I have never seen anything like that, but maybe I’m not looking in the right spots.

 

[MRBB]

I do have some pic's but don't have them handy, have a bunch of trail cam pic's with them on live deer mostly!

when working at butcher shops I never stopped to take pic's
and a few the game dept had taken away to ??test or?/ who know;s they worked with the hunter more than us at the shop
and most shops I work at are seasonal shops, so, after season, not open for follow up info to get to me!

and to be clear here folks, I am NOT ONLY talking about MY area, which it seems many of you are think here??
with all the NEW -ish issue's we are finding on deer, its every where and gain ground in more and more places, this is the troubling part of it, its spreading faster than many I think, think!
so, I am speaking as a whole here, to deer locations and NOT just where I am at now!

I hunted a lot of states east and west far and apart
and have seen and known of more issues with deer in the past 15+ yrs than in the past 50+s before
this is my point
you all can say, things didn't get known due to the internet all you like
but game depts talked all the time, hunting magazines were about and still are, and million of hunters got/get them still
as TRUE Hunters used them as tools to learn more about hunting, and IMO< there were MORE Honest HUNTERS (not one's looking to get famous with home made videos)
back in the day(70-80-into the 90's)
that had strong desire to learn more about deer, as there wasn't the vast overload there is today available
and I am NOT bashing today's hunters here, times have changed I get it?

so hunters DID use all tools they could to learn back then! and millions of them!
not many forums have a million plus members compared to how many magazine were sold !
so numbers are pretty good in the old days to be honest !

so, numbers of eyes on things were as high or HIGHER IMO< due to MORE hunters period!

so info was always passed about, maybe not as wide as it is now, but MOST hunters still today do NOT belong to forums and such
so when your getting many finding things now, it is STILL honestly a smaller portion of hunters that are reporting them!
which means things are increasing and becoming more common
which should worry ALL hunters!

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I guess I should have been more specific and I wouldn't consider the 70's the old days let alone the 80's or 90's. I didn't think about the hundreds of hunting publications either but again was talking about a time before all that was popular. And things just may be much different in my area. Back in the 70's nobody was taking days off work to deer hunt in my area.

This discussion again shows how different things are in different areas. I would never dream of taking my deer somewhere to be butchered. I have butchered great plenty of them and have never found a tumor or anything like it. Anything out of the ordinary was from an obvious injury like a hunter wounded deer or being hit by a car. I have also caped out many deer while helping out a taxidermist buddy of mine in the fall and also have never run across the things you talk about. Never seen any strange growths out of the hundred thousand plus trail camera photos over the past 25 years either.

 

[jsasker007]

Two things that I've seen in my 36 years of hunting: 1 doe we shot had a lump of some kind(injury? tumor?) we don't know what it was. That was about 20 tears ago. The second deer that had something strange was shot by my buddy who isn't known for telling tales. He said that deer had a "fuzz" covering the whole heart. I did not see that myself. That was at least 15 years ago. That's the only things we've found on any of the deer we have taken.

 

[sandbur]

Fuzz covering a cow’s heart can indicate an infection in the body. Sometimes from pneumonia, an injury, and a few experts even wonder if from eating plant awns that penetrate the stomach. Also tons of other things can cause blood borne infections.


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[jsasker007]

I am not 100% positive but I think they ate that deer. That probably wasn't a good idea.