Fall food plot plan advice/help

[DavidHunter2001]

Thank you, that is what I will try. Do you think 65lbs/acre of buckwheat would be a solid stand?
And also, for when I plant the fall food plot, do you think 60lbs wheat/acre, 60lbs rye/acre, and 30lbs oats/acre would be good

You may want to look at walnutcreekseeds. This is Dave Brandt's website and get some of his summer soil builder mix. It doesn't hurt to plant a summer plot to build up the soil nutrients for a fall crop. It can be very beneficial to the soil and will drastically reduce your input crops. He has several good videos on this as well.

Grazing Mix - Walnut Creek Seeds

Walnut Creek Seeds, LLC, Ohio, Crop Seeds, Single Species, cover crop mixes, cover crops, forages, Blue River Hybrid dealers, Organic, crop roller, planter attachments

www.walnutcreekseeds.com

 

[Deerkiller308]

You will be fine planting buckwheat in the spring, There are several reasons I suggested buckwheat rather than a mix. One is because you are just starting out and have had previous failures. Buckwheat is hard to screw up. It will germinate in my truck bed when a little dirt gets in. As long as the soil is warm enough and you get a little rain after planting, there is not much you can do. Also, buckwheat does not have high pH or fertility requirements. Lime 6 months ago with a couple more months until planting time should amend your soil plenty for Buckwheat. Next, soil building is best done when tillage is minimized or eliminated. Because buckwheat germinates and grows so quickly, it will outcompete most weeds. Looking toward fall, Buckwheat is a great crop to T&M into. As you gain experience, you will learn the right level of thatch that works for your situation, but a pure stand of buckwheat makes for the perfect T&M much because it decomposes so quickly.

I'm trying to balance good practices with keeping things simple to ensure you get a little success under your belt. Soil can be built through mixing or rotating or both. Since you want to plant annually, you will have lots of opportunities to try different mixes in future years. The best thing to do is to learn about your soil type. krekelly makes a good point about planting a polyculture. The problem is that most of the commercial mixes are not locally focused. So, you can end up paying for seed that does not produce in your soils and climate. Worse, some commercial mixes contain seed like ryegrass which can become invasive in some situations. I'm planting large acreage for QDM purposes, so mixing a larger variety of seeds myself is not a problem, but that may not be practical for folks planting a couple 1/4 acre plots.

What you really need to do is balance what is good for soil, what will grow well in your soils and climate and with your deer densities, and what achieves your attraction objective. I've given you a good starting point for this year, but as time goes on you may want to experiment with other crops in your mix. While my objectives are different, QDM as well as kill plot attraction, I'm probably not too far away being in central VA, so my climate and soils may be similar. So, I'll tell you what has been working for me lately.

I've been using a 50/50 mix of sunn hemp and buckwheat for summer. I've been experimenting with adding a third crop. I tried sunflowers, and last year I added wild game sorghum (milo). While the sorghum did well, it was not compatible with my fall plant. Sorghum spends the summer growing and produces seed heads that deer eat in the fall. I had to mow the field when planting my fall crop, so the sorghum never benefited the deer.

The fall mix that works well for me is Winter Rye, Purple Top Turnips, Groundhog Radish, and Crimson Clover. The Winter Rye provides the early season attraction as does the GHR tops. The GHR tubers provide mid season attraction as does the turnip tops. The PTT bulbs provide a very late season and post season food source. The GHR also provides "organic tillage" if planted early enough for large tubers. The Crimson Clover and Winter Rye bounce back in the spring. They keep my soil covered and the Crimson Clover feeds deer in the early spring until I'm ready to plant for summer.

I'm using this combination of mixing and rotation to attract, and feed deer while building soil health. Since I'm working on a larger scale, I'm buying 50 pound bags of seed and mixing them myself which is pretty cost efficient.

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks for the replies,
I promise this is the last question,
Since I have extra wheat and rye seeds from the last fall planting, would it do any good if I backed the buckwheat down to maybe 50lbs or less/acre and threw in a lil bit of wheat or rye? I understand that the buckwheat grows pretty quick so maybe it’d just be best to leave it alone. The only reason I say this is because I have plenty of extra wheat and rye, so I might as well do something with it.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the replies,
I promise this is the last question,
Since I have extra wheat and rye seeds from the last fall planting, would it do any good if I backed the buckwheat down to maybe 50lbs or less/acre and threw in a lil bit of wheat or rye? I understand that the buckwheat grows pretty quick so maybe it’d just be best to leave it alone. The only reason I say this is because I have plenty of extra wheat and rye, so I might as well do something with it.

For every question you ask, there are 10 new folks that have the same kind of question and are interested in the response, so don't hesitate to ask.

If I were you, I would save your winter rye and wheat seed for the fall plant. As long as you keep them in a cool dry location, cereal grain seeds keep pretty well. The germination rate may drop a little, but that is easily compensated for by increasing the seeding rates by 10% or so. I usually don't bother with cereal because they keep so well, but for some other seeds you can do a "rag doll" test. Here is a link with details if you are interested: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ag182. Once you have established a germination rate for and old bag of seed, you just adjust the seeding rate to compensate for the percent of seed that won't germinate.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Deerkiller308]

Ok, the link was helpful, when I wanted to make sure seeds would germinate, I would just throw some seeds on some dirt and wait a few days.
As far as the crimson clover and WR fall plot goes, would you throw any extra fertilizer like 34-0-0 or urea on them as a small boost after they have been growing for a lil while? I know clover makes it’s own nitrogen but cereal grains take up a lot of nitrogen. So I don’t want to throw unnecessary nitrogen out and just encourage weeds. Before I talked to you, I had planned on throwing out 200 lbs/acre of 34-0-0 over a pure cereal grains stand. That was probably a lil overkill.
Plus, ammonium nitrate is ridiculously expensive and hard to find where we are at considering it’s used to make bombs and all that

 

[yoderjac]

Ok, the link was helpful, when I wanted to make sure seeds would germinate, I would just throw some seeds on some dirt and wait a few days.
As far as the crimson clover and WR fall plot goes, would you throw any extra fertilizer like 34-0-0 or urea on them as a small boost after they have been growing for a lil while? I know clover makes it’s own nitrogen but cereal grains take up a lot of nitrogen. So I don’t want to throw unnecessary nitrogen out and just encourage weeds. Before I talked to you, I had planned on throwing out 200 lbs/acre of 34-0-0 over a pure cereal grains stand. That was probably a lil overkill.
Plus, ammonium nitrate is ridiculously expensive and hard to find where we are at considering it’s used to make bombs and all that

Nope. Soil tests don't test for N. The recommendations are based on the needs of the crop only and focused on high yield for farmers. Even back when I was using commercial fertilizer, I never intentionally added N. The only commercial N my crops ever got was the small percentage in MAP that I used to achieve P requirements. The only N my crops get is the N fixed by the legumes that I mix in. Keep in mind those N recommendations assume that many nutrients were removed by the previous harvest. More advanced soil libs ( I use Virginia Tech) will ask when you planted a previous legume and what the yield was.

By smartly mixing and rotating crops and building OM, you will find that natural nutrient cycling will be sufficient. If you have not previously applied fertilizer, it may make sense to use commercial fertilizer to achieve your P and K requirements initially. After that, I'd only use them if I find an issue with a crop.

Keep in mind, my soil is pretty heavy clay. I'm guessing yours is too, but you need to figure out your soil type. With heavy clay soils, lime and nutrients move slowly through the soil. With sandy soils, they move very fast. Once amended, it can take quite a few years before my pH get to the point where I need to add 1 ton/ac of maintenance lime. I know folks with sandy soil and low OM that have to add lime every time they plant. I know NC has a lot of clay soils like VA, but that may or may not be the case in your particular area.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[scott44]

Yes, I am going to plant a fall crop in these plots, probably rye, wheat, and oats. I do have a little bit of buckwheat that I could throw out but I’m worried it might not get enough sunlight and it might be overgrazed.
For when I plant a fall food plot, do you think 60lbs wheat/acre, 60lbs rye/acre, and 30lbs oats/acre would still be too much?

I put down 100-150#/acre of cereal grains for my fall plots.

 

[Deerkiller308]

Nope. Soil tests don't test for N. The recommendations are based on the needs of the crop only and focused on high yield for farmers. Even back when I was using commercial fertilizer, I never intentionally added N. The only commercial N my crops ever got was the small percentage in MAP that I used to achieve P requirements. The only N my crops get is the N fixed by the legumes that I mix in. Keep in mind those N recommendations assume that many nutrients were removed by the previous harvest. More advanced soil libs ( I use Virginia Tech) will ask when you planted a previous legume and what the yield was.

By smartly mixing and rotating crops and building OM, you will find that natural nutrient cycling will be sufficient. If you have not previously applied fertilizer, it may make sense to use commercial fertilizer to achieve your P and K requirements initially. After that, I'd only use them if I find an issue with a crop.

Keep in mind, my soil is pretty heavy clay. I'm guessing yours is too, but you need to figure out your soil type. With heavy clay soils, lime and nutrients move slowly through the soil. With sandy soils, they move very fast. Once amended, it can take quite a few years before my pH get to the point where I need to add 1 ton/ac of maintenance lime. I know folks with sandy soil and low OM that have to add lime every time they plant. I know NC has a lot of clay soils like VA, but that may or may not be the case in your particular area.

Thanks,

Jack

thank you yoderjac for taking the time to answer my questions, cause I’ve asked you a lot of questions, your responses have helped me a lot. And yes, I have clay soil that’s more along the lines of your soil, so it should be less demanding of lime, etc.

 

[yoderjac]

From the PM:

my question is, if I plant the 100lbs/ac of WR like you had said, what should the seeding rate of the Durana clover be? I was thinking about 6lbs/acre.

I figured I might be better off to just take a crack at a perrenial plot because once they get established good, they’ll be fairly easy to maintain other then a occasional mowing, spraying, overseeding, fertilizing, etc(though I’ll probably not have to do the majority of that as it is a small plot) and they will provide easy year-round forage. I’m thinking to overseed the clover every fall with a rye/wheat mix to keep a lil variety to the plot and to keep some grazing pressure off the clover.

the reason I didn’t start a whole new thread was because people opinions on seeding rates usually differ quite a bit. And since I have based my mix largely on your recommendations, i figured it’d be best to hear from you firsthand. I might ought to copy this and post this as a thread for other people can see.

In answer to your PM question:

Having said that, I shoot for 10 lbs/ac with Durana. Durana has lots a great characteristics, especially for the south, but it is quite slow to establish. I find the best practice is to mow back the WR the following spring each time it hits a foot to 18" back to 6"-8". As long as you have rain in the forecast you can mow back to 6". If not, don't mow lower than 8" in case you get a drought before it establishes. There is no need to spray. After that first spring I typically only mow right before the season. The field my look like a field of weeds in the summer, but there is clover underneath. The weeds don't bother the deer. When you mow in the fall, as the cool nights and fall rain favor the clover, you would be amazed how it bounces back and dominates after a fall mowing.

Don't try to overseed the following fall. In order to overseed, you have to topkill the clover and it is too young that first year. If you want to over seed after that, wait until you have rain in the forecast. Drop you bushog and mow it flat to the ground. Then broadcast or drill your seed and cultipack. After 6 or 7 years, grasses will begin to take over. Instead of bushhogging flat, spray it with 1 quart/ac glyphosate. This will topkill the clover. Then broadcast or drill your seed. This rate of gly will kill grasses. Don't do this if you are in an area with gly-resistant weeds. You usually find this when you are close to big ag.

Here is an example of what this looks like:





In this case, I was drilling radish and WR into clover. Half the field was suppressed by bushhogging flat and half by using 1 qt/ac gly. I used a Kasco No-till versa drill. With the clover suppressed, I presume broadcasting and cultipacking would also work, but I have not tried that myself since I have the drill.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Deerkiller308]

From the PM:

my question is, if I plant the 100lbs/ac of WR like you had said, what should the seeding rate of the Durana clover be? I was thinking about 6lbs/acre.

I figured I might be better off to just take a crack at a perrenial plot because once they get established good, they’ll be fairly easy to maintain other then a occasional mowing, spraying, overseeding, fertilizing, etc(though I’ll probably not have to do the majority of that as it is a small plot) and they will provide easy year-round forage. I’m thinking to overseed the clover every fall with a rye/wheat mix to keep a lil variety to the plot and to keep some grazing pressure off the clover.

the reason I didn’t start a whole new thread was because people opinions on seeding rates usually differ quite a bit. And since I have based my mix largely on your recommendations, i figured it’d be best to hear from you firsthand. I might ought to copy this and post this as a thread for other people can see.

In answer to your PM question:

Having said that, I shoot for 10 lbs/ac with Durana. Durana has lots a great characteristics, especially for the south, but it is quite slow to establish. I find the best practice is to mow back the WR the following spring each time it hits a foot to 18" back to 6"-8". As long as you have rain in the forecast you can mow back to 6". If not, don't mow lower than 8" in case you get a drought before it establishes. There is no need to spray. After that first spring I typically only mow right before the season. The field my look like a field of weeds in the summer, but there is clover underneath. The weeds don't bother the deer. When you mow in the fall, as the cool nights and fall rain favor the clover, you would be amazed how it bounces back and dominates after a fall mowing.

Don't try to overseed the following fall. In order to overseed, you have to topkill the clover and it is too young that first year. If you want to over seed after that, wait until you have rain in the forecast. Drop you bushog and mow it flat to the ground. Then broadcast or drill your seed and cultipack. After 6 or 7 years, grasses will begin to take over. Instead of bushhogging flat, spray it with 1 quart/ac glyphosate. This will topkill the clover. Then broadcast or drill your seed. This rate of gly will kill grasses. Don't do this if you are in an area with gly-resistant weeds. You usually find this when you are close to big ag.

Here is an example of what this looks like:

View attachment 33598

View attachment 33599

In this case, I was drilling radish and WR into clover. Half the field was suppressed by bushhogging flat and half by using 1 qt/ac gly. I used a Kasco No-till versa drill. With the clover suppressed, I presume broadcasting and cultipacking would also work, but I have not tried that myself since I have the drill.

Thanks,

Jack

Ok, thank you.