Crabapple trees on reclaimed surface mine

[Thunder]

I have a section of 5 acres on a reclaimed surface mine. The area was reclaimed 17 years ago. I'm on a slight SW slope in Cambria County PA.
Spruce and warm season grasses are growing but it's a little rough. I think they started running out of topsoil.
I'd like to plant 50 crabapple trees. What species are seeing decent results and are people using any special techniques?
I'm using a shovel to plant bare root. Mixing new screened topsoil with pea moss. Putting a 2x2 weed fabric done with crushed limestone holding the fabric. These will be tubed.
I'd like to cage them but I'm not sure of the survival rate.
I'd like to hear everyone's experience and theory if this is a good plan or needs adjusted.
I'd like to plant 200 across 15 acres. Along with other mast producing trees. I have 25 acres total on the Mine. 5 acres will be foodplots and 6 acres i want old field habitat.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I have no experience on re-claimed mine soil. I have planted about 85 - 88 apple & crab apple trees. Our camp went with 5 ft. tall concrete re-mesh for cages, and aluminum window screen for mouse & vole protection to keep them from chewing the bark (girdling) which kills the trees. We used tubes and black, corrugated drain pipe for protection on a number of earlier fruit trees. The mice and voles LOVED those tubes and pipes. They moved right in and made hotels inside them, which made winter chewing an easy task. We lost all those trees, with the bark getting chewed off right to the tops of the tube "protection". On the next (current) apple & crab trees, we switched to 5 ft. cages and aluminum window screen with no problems. I should say I made the window screen about 24" to 30" tall to plan for deeper snow, so mice & voles couldn't walk on top of a 12" or 18" deep snow and get an easy meal.

We did the same weed mat / crushed limestone thing you're planning. Great idea - we had good results with ours. Your slight SW slope is ideal for lots of sunlight. Our camp is in NC Pa. mountains, so - same area of the country. Good luck with your plantings!

 

[bigboreblr]

No personal experience here. A coworker has a home with reclaimed mine like your on a portion of the property. Very tough growing anything there.

I'd dig down 2 feet and get soil sample. Do that maybe 10 times. Soil can be quite variable one spot to another. Find out what you got. Certain roostocks do better in certain soils. MAybe plant a dozen on the first year. M111, dolgo, antonvoka, and maybe g890 or B118 or P18.

IF you dont protect it with a cage, the critters will eat them.

I get my rootstock from mehrabyan nrsery in ithaca NY. They have every roostock listed except dolgo. Siberian crab and ranetka would be pretty good choices too.

Every rootstock will produce apples of some kind. Some might even be the type and time of year you like too.

I have been eyeing yellow river nurseries, they have red splendor seedlings for $5 each or so. That variety is spoken well of on here. Since they're seedlings, each one will be different to some extent.

IF that soil is bad, you may need to ammend a large section to make a tree viable there. IF I recall poor sand might have some insight on here. He's posted about growing things in poor soil.

Get some pictures of what is growing there. Predominate plants tell a story of the soil. If the soil is bad, you might have to do a few years of green manure. Rye n medium red clover might help things out for a few years. Sandy soil planting crimson clover in the late spring after risk of frost can be good too.

 

[Ruffdude]

Apples like rocky soil. It used to be a thing to throw a rock in the hole when planting an apple tree to help the roots anchor I suppose.
But remember the root system below ground is the engine that drives what is above ground so if your trees have difficulty rooting extensively or deeply they will not flourish above ground. To that end I would start with semi dwarf apple varieties. Amend your holes like you plan to, really put your efforts into doing that.
I would also try some Siberian crabs. They will be more shrub like and should not require a lot of rooting to survive.
I would NOT tube them as mentioned above.
Use screen or flex wrap on the trunks and cage them .
I use 4’ welded wire and lift it a foot off the ground, a bit cheaper than buying 5’ or 6’ fence and you won’t stop rabbits anyway unless you use something with a really tight mesh pattern. Lifting them also allows easy access in future for weeding, pruning, adding mulch, etc.

Profusion Crabapple I planted this Fall just for reference.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

First off, because you’re in PA, get your trees from Whitetail Crabs and BlueHill nursery. You can just run over and pick them up. They are huge, have good roots and produce early (as in crabapples producing the first year in the ground and pears the second). Well worth a couple hours drive time. Second, listen to Bows and the other guys on here. I did as he and others instructed with the weed mat, window screen and concrete remesh. I’ve planted almost 100 fruit trees in the past 5 years and lost 3, which were all my fault for not keeping the grass low around them and voles ate the roots. This will at least give your trees a fighting chance in marginal soil. Also, you can amend the soil around your trees with lime (and after 1 year in the ground), fertilizer. Would definitely get a soil test too to see what you’re working with.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Get a soil test and add lime if needed to get the pH to 6.5. I’ve had good luck growing apples in a really sandy section (organic matter % around 1%) by adding thick layers of leaves, grass clippings, deer/animal carcasses and rotting hay around the trees. A decade of this has added over 6” of thick topsoil and the trees are doing great.

Keep aluminum screen around the trunks to prevent vole damage.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

First off, because you’re in PA, get your trees from Whitetail Crabs and BlueHill nursery. You can just run over and pick them up. They are huge, have good roots and produce early (as in crabapples producing the first year in the ground and pears the second). Well worth a couple hours drive time. Second, listen to Bows and the other guys on here. I did as he and others instructed with the weed mat, window screen and concrete remesh. I’ve planted almost 100 fruit trees in the past 5 years and lost 3, which were all my fault for not keeping the grass low around them and voles ate the roots. This will at least give your trees a fighting chance in marginal soil. Also, you can amend the soil around your trees with lime (and after 1 year in the ground), fertilizer. Would definitely get a soil test too to see what you’re working with.

^ ^ ^ ^ Good info, Derek.

Thanks for the mention in your post, Derek. The tree protection methods I've used I learned from other guys on here - some of whom don't post here anymore - and from local commercial orchard owners. I just try to pass along what they taught, and what's worked for us at camp for deer, mouse and vole protection. Caging with re-mesh, weed fabric mats, crushed limestone on those mats, & aluminum window screens have made a TON of difference for us.

 

[Thunder]

I put in an order at Blue Hill nursery for 48 trees. I want to have them start dropping in Sept through winter.
I have someone lined up to drill 2x2 holes with a hydraulic auger. depending on how that goes, I'd like to drill 50 more holes for Chestnut trees for next year. I'd like to break these up into 3-4 patches.
These fruit trees are going in a 25-acre area I call the feeding area.
Thanks for the information.

A patch for my Mom. She wanted some for cooking
1 Freedom
1 RubyRush
1 Chestnut Crab
1 Enterprise
1 Dolgo
1 Luscious Pear
1 Harrow Sweet Pear
1 Ayers Pear
1 Sweet Advent Pear

9 Persimmons total:
2 Tin Cup
2 Full Draw
2 Yates Persimmon
2 Deer Candy
1 meader

18 Pears total:
5 Sweet Advent
4 Hunter's Deer
3 Kieffer
2 Jackpot
2 Ayers
2 Rifle

12 Apples/Crabapples total:
2 Sweet November
2 Yates Applecrab
2 Enterprise
2 Winter Crabarina
1 Turning Point
1 Big Ten
1 Liberty
1 Ed's Crazy

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

That’s a lot of work, but will be great a decade from now.

 

[RGrizzzz]

I put in an order at Blue Hill nursery for 48 trees. I want to have them start dropping in Sept through winter.
I have someone lined up to drill 2x2 holes with a hydraulic auger. depending on how that goes, I'd like to drill 50 more holes for Chestnut trees for next year. I'd like to break these up into 3-4 patches.
These fruit trees are going in a 25-acre area I call the feeding area.
Thanks for the information.

A patch for my Mom. She wanted some for cooking
1 Freedom
1 RubyRush
1 Chestnut Crab
1 Enterprise
1 Dolgo
1 Luscious Pear
1 Harrow Sweet Pear
1 Ayers Pear
1 Sweet Advent Pear

9 Persimmons total:
2 Tin Cup
2 Full Draw
2 Yates Persimmon
2 Deer Candy
1 meader

18 Pears total:
5 Sweet Advent
4 Hunter's Deer
3 Kieffer
2 Jackpot
2 Ayers
2 Rifle

12 Apples/Crabapples total:
2 Sweet November
2 Yates Applecrab
2 Enterprise
2 Winter Crabarina
1 Turning Point
1 Big Ten
1 Liberty
1 Ed's Crazy

If you're unsure of how the trees will do on the old mine soil before spending the money, I'd order the Houdini trees he has for sale now. If they make it a year, then order the more expensive ones.

Houdini

Grafted apple, apple crab, and crabapple trees at a discounted price.

bluehillwildlifenursery.com

Strip mine soil is notorious for low pH. I'd send a soil test, or a few to PSU. Then plan to lime the crap out of the whole acreage where the fruit trees will go. I'd supplement the holes with lime too. I'd consider mixing in some bio-char/carbon products or compost as well. Get some organic matter in the mix.

Soil Test Recommendations for Tree Fruits (Agricultural Analytical Services Lab)

agsci.psu.edu

 

[Thunder]

The PH is 5.2-6.2
Organic matter is 3.2-5.6
It's very low in phosphorus and potassium.
This was from the soil sample. 3-6" deep. I assume 1-2' will be worse.
I was going to add a shovel full compost to each hole.
Last year I planted 3 kefier pears that seemed to do ok. They are coming out of the 5' tube.
Throughout the year I want to use my tractor to drill 6" holes 3' deep that are 4' away from the tree and back fill it with gravel, woodchips and compost to help hold water and biomatter.
I'm using cages and aluminum screening.
I have a few pines i can cut and build a barrier around 1 or 2 patches.
I've looked at biochar and gypsum but I'm not sure of those.
I planted 11 chestnuts and lost 3.
I'm in central PA and the drought was pretty bad.

 

[RGrizzzz]

The PH is 5.2-6.2
Organic matter is 3.2-5.6
It's very low in phosphorus and potassium.
This was from the soil sample. 3-6" deep. I assume 1-2' will be worse.
I was going to add a shovel full compost to each hole.
Last year I planted 3 kefier pears that seemed to do ok. They are coming out of the 5' tube.
Throughout the year I want to use my tractor to drill 6" holes 3' deep that are 4' away from the tree and back fill it with gravel, woodchips and compost to help hold water and biomatter.
I'm using cages and aluminum screening.
I have a few pines i can cut and build a barrier around 1 or 2 patches.
I've looked at biochar and gypsum but I'm not sure of those.
I planted 11 chestnuts and lost 3.
I'm in central PA and the drought was pretty bad.

Consider adding some fertilizer too.

 

[Thunder]

When you say fertilizer, are you talking phosphorus and potassium? I was going to add a 1/2cup of each into the hole but my friend who works at a nursery said not to.
I have 2 horses and a manure spreader. That'll be to hot to add.

 

[RGrizzzz]

When you say fertilizer, are you talking phosphorus and potassium? I was going to add a 1/2cup of each into the hole but my friend who works at a nursery said not to.
I have 2 horses and a manure spreader. That'll be to hot to add.

I would lightly amend the hole soil with P and K. I've been doing in for the last 5 years when I'm planting my Blue Hill trees and it hasn't bothered them at all. The soil at our camp has low pH and lacks P and K, too. I've been using the following product and have been happy with it. I loosely know the owner, and he recommended this.

5-in-1 Complete Planting Granules - Bio-Plex

BioPlex 5-in-1 Complete™ Planting Granules is one composite product, formulated to affect five strategic, agronomic plant responses. It delivers one ...

www.bio-plex.com

I forgot to mention, I also add this. I get it at the landscape supply yard.

LESCO CarbonPro™ | LESCO

www.lesco.com

 

[PatinPA]

The PH is 5.2-6.2
Organic matter is 3.2-5.6
It's very low in phosphorus and potassium.
This was from the soil sample. 3-6" deep. I assume 1-2' will be worse.
I was going to add a shovel full compost to each hole.
Last year I planted 3 kefier pears that seemed to do ok. They are coming out of the 5' tube.
Throughout the year I want to use my tractor to drill 6" holes 3' deep that are 4' away from the tree and back fill it with gravel, woodchips and compost to help hold water and biomatter.
I'm using cages and aluminum screening.
I have a few pines i can cut and build a barrier around 1 or 2 patches.
I've looked at biochar and gypsum but I'm not sure of those.
I planted 11 chestnuts and lost 3.
I'm in central PA and the drought was pretty bad.

I'm in Juniata county. Not strip mine but I have extremely rocky soil. To the point where there is nothing left but rocks after I dig the hole. I just get some potting soil and mix back in with some rocks. Haven't lost any yet.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Your organic matter is actually pretty good, so you have that going for you. I'd add lime annually until you can get the pH closer to 6.5. I add very little fertilizer the first year - typically I only scatter a small amount around the tree a month or two after planting if a specific tree is growing less than it should. I've heard that having fertilizer contact the roots can cause damage, but I haven't personally witnessed that. After year 1, I add a couple cups of 10-10-10 fertilizer per tree.

Fixing the pH will allow the tree to use the nutrients found in the soil more readily, so I'd focus on that first.