Coronavirus
- Thread starter BuckSutherland
- Start date
- Status
Knehrke
5 year old buck +
Okay, a simple explanation I will try to provide. The six foot guideline (notice I say guideline and not rule) came about as an estimate based upon observational studies enacted retrospectively...because it would be unethical to knowingly infect people. The estimate was a consensus driven by likely modes of infection and similarities to other diseases. One such estimate derives from a seminal article published in the New England Journal of Medicine, our nation's premier medical journal (the UK's "The Lancet" also publishes work of the highest impact, in the field of medicine): https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa031349
The focus of this article was SARS, which is caused by another coronavirus. And so while the six foot number is not a hard-line answer, it is a compromise based on the best available data and an example of "evidence-based medicine", which is about as good as it gets. As with any guideline, details matter and we need to use both common sense and judgement when applying it. Just like I wouldn't go around licking doorknobs, I'm not going to let somebody sneeze in my face from six feet away! But I will certainly host a tree-planting party on my property where everybody respects each other's personal space, even if we're sometimes closer than six feet from each other.
jsasker007
5 year old buck +
Thank You sir
chummer
5 year old buck +
Can we all agree that leaving the middle seat open on planes accomplishes nothing other than contribute to the bankruptcy of the airlines. Why do stadiums need to be empty? If Walmart can be packed surely a stadium can have a few hundred or even a thousand fans. This is what drives me crazy. The government picks the winners and losers and many times it appears common sense is not applied. Everyone knows the deal now. If you want to stay home, stay home, otherwise open it up.
TreeDaddy
5 year old buck +
Knehrke
5 year old buck +
Yep. Arbitrary rules make it harder to convince folks of the importance of other, more practical guidelines. If beaches can be open, then why not stadiums? Every other row, every other seat, whatever. Of course, nobody can afford tickets...
I've said it before - we've flattened the curve, and we're all educated in what we should be doing to minimize the spread. Time to get back to it.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
A very real and interesting introspective on what is going on now. Some very fundamental questions on what is being done to us. I know some will immediately dismiss, but these things are really happening.
If you want to comply without questioning, that's your choice. But I encourage people to also resist and challenge Gov't at every level. Challenging Gov't is what keeps a constitutional republic healthy & viable.
============================
What if the government has it wrong -- on the medicine and the law?
What if face masks can’t stop the COVID-19 virus? What if quarantining the healthy makes no medical sense? What if staying at home for months reduces immunity?
What if more people have been infected with the virus in their homes than outside them?
What if there are as many credible scientists and physicians who disagree with the government as those who agree with it? What if the government chooses to listen only to scientists and physicians who would tell it what it wanted to hear? What if the government silences scientists and physicians, and even fires one, who attempt to tell it what it didn’t want to hear?
What if the government wants to stoke fear in the populace because mass fear produces mass compliance? What if individual fear reduces individual immunity?
What if a healthy immunity gets stronger when challenged? What if a pampered immunity gets weaker when challenged? What if we all pass germs and viruses -- that we don’t even know we have -- on to others all the time, but their immune systems repel what we pass on to them?
What if the COVID-19 virus has run its course and run into natural immunities? What if many folks have had symptom-free episodes with many viruses and are now immune from them? What if the government refuses to understand this because it undermines the government’s power to control us?
What if government orders to nursing homes and assisted living facilities to accept the sick and contagious are insane? What if the same government that micromanages nursing homes and assisted living facilities knows that they are not hospitals and are not equipped to cure the sick or contain contagion?
What if the government makes health care decisions not on the basis of medicine or human nature but statistics? What if reliance on the government’s statistics has made many folks sick?
What if we’d all be healthier and happier if we make our own choices with our own physicians rather than the government making choices for us? What if it is un-American for the government to tell you how to care for yourself? What if it is equally un-American for you to follow the government when it intrudes into your personal choices?
What if the Supreme Court has ruled many times that your health care decisions are private, personal and to be made between you and your physician? What if the Supreme Court has also ruled many times that your private health care decisions are none of the government’s business?
What if we never elected a government to keep us free from all viruses, but we did elect it to keep us free from all tyrants? What if the government -- which can’t deliver the mail, fill potholes, stop robocalls, or spend within its income -- is the last entity on earth into whose hands we would voluntarily repose our health for safekeeping? What if the government won’t admit that its understanding of science is colored by politics?
What if the government has misunderstood its mandate? What if the government thinks it can do its job by keeping us safe but unfree? What if -- according to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence -- government’s first duty is to safeguard our rights? What if there is no legal basis for the government to keep us at home or to close our businesses?
What if the government gave itself the power to interfere with our personal choices? What if that self-imposed power violates the basic constitutional principle that the government derives its powers from the consent of the governed? What if no one consented to a government that interferes with our personal choices? What if our personal choices to take personal chances have never needed a government permission slip?
What if the Constitution was written to restrain the government? What if all in government -- local, state and federal -- have taken an oath to uphold and comply with the Constitution?
What if the government decrees that liquor sales are essential but clothing sales are not? What if the government decrees that abortions are essential but orthopedic surgery is not? What if the government decrees that music stores are essential but the free exercise of religion is not?
What if these decisions about what is essential and inessential are for individuals -- and not for the government -- to make?
What if to the barber or short-order cook or retail salesperson a barbershop and a luncheonette and a clothing store are essential? What if to those who love God, the free exercise of religion is essential?
What if the government makes essential whatever serves its friends, enhances its wealth, maintains its stability and removes obstacles to its exercise of power? What if the Constitution -- with its protections of our rights to make free choices -- is an intentional obstacle to governmental power?
What if America’s founders and the Constitution’s framers chose liberty over safety? What if the government doesn’t like that choice? What if the government only nominally endorses it?
What if -- when the pandemic is over -- the government remains tyrannical? What if -- when the pandemic is over -- folks sue the government for its destruction of life, liberty and property only to learn that the government gave itself immunity from such lawsuits? What if -- when the pandemic is over -- the government refuses to acknowledge its end?
What if -- as Thomas Jefferson said -- the blood of patriots should be spilled on the tree of revolution at least once in every generation? What if we nullify the government that has nullified our rights?
Judge Andrew Napolitano
If you want to comply without questioning, that's your choice. But I encourage people to also resist and challenge Gov't at every level. Challenging Gov't is what keeps a constitutional republic healthy & viable.
============================
What if the government has it wrong -- on the medicine and the law?
What if face masks can’t stop the COVID-19 virus? What if quarantining the healthy makes no medical sense? What if staying at home for months reduces immunity?
What if more people have been infected with the virus in their homes than outside them?
What if there are as many credible scientists and physicians who disagree with the government as those who agree with it? What if the government chooses to listen only to scientists and physicians who would tell it what it wanted to hear? What if the government silences scientists and physicians, and even fires one, who attempt to tell it what it didn’t want to hear?
What if the government wants to stoke fear in the populace because mass fear produces mass compliance? What if individual fear reduces individual immunity?
What if a healthy immunity gets stronger when challenged? What if a pampered immunity gets weaker when challenged? What if we all pass germs and viruses -- that we don’t even know we have -- on to others all the time, but their immune systems repel what we pass on to them?
What if the COVID-19 virus has run its course and run into natural immunities? What if many folks have had symptom-free episodes with many viruses and are now immune from them? What if the government refuses to understand this because it undermines the government’s power to control us?
What if government orders to nursing homes and assisted living facilities to accept the sick and contagious are insane? What if the same government that micromanages nursing homes and assisted living facilities knows that they are not hospitals and are not equipped to cure the sick or contain contagion?
What if the government makes health care decisions not on the basis of medicine or human nature but statistics? What if reliance on the government’s statistics has made many folks sick?
What if we’d all be healthier and happier if we make our own choices with our own physicians rather than the government making choices for us? What if it is un-American for the government to tell you how to care for yourself? What if it is equally un-American for you to follow the government when it intrudes into your personal choices?
What if the Supreme Court has ruled many times that your health care decisions are private, personal and to be made between you and your physician? What if the Supreme Court has also ruled many times that your private health care decisions are none of the government’s business?
What if we never elected a government to keep us free from all viruses, but we did elect it to keep us free from all tyrants? What if the government -- which can’t deliver the mail, fill potholes, stop robocalls, or spend within its income -- is the last entity on earth into whose hands we would voluntarily repose our health for safekeeping? What if the government won’t admit that its understanding of science is colored by politics?
What if the government has misunderstood its mandate? What if the government thinks it can do its job by keeping us safe but unfree? What if -- according to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence -- government’s first duty is to safeguard our rights? What if there is no legal basis for the government to keep us at home or to close our businesses?
What if the government gave itself the power to interfere with our personal choices? What if that self-imposed power violates the basic constitutional principle that the government derives its powers from the consent of the governed? What if no one consented to a government that interferes with our personal choices? What if our personal choices to take personal chances have never needed a government permission slip?
What if the Constitution was written to restrain the government? What if all in government -- local, state and federal -- have taken an oath to uphold and comply with the Constitution?
What if the government decrees that liquor sales are essential but clothing sales are not? What if the government decrees that abortions are essential but orthopedic surgery is not? What if the government decrees that music stores are essential but the free exercise of religion is not?
What if these decisions about what is essential and inessential are for individuals -- and not for the government -- to make?
What if to the barber or short-order cook or retail salesperson a barbershop and a luncheonette and a clothing store are essential? What if to those who love God, the free exercise of religion is essential?
What if the government makes essential whatever serves its friends, enhances its wealth, maintains its stability and removes obstacles to its exercise of power? What if the Constitution -- with its protections of our rights to make free choices -- is an intentional obstacle to governmental power?
What if America’s founders and the Constitution’s framers chose liberty over safety? What if the government doesn’t like that choice? What if the government only nominally endorses it?
What if -- when the pandemic is over -- the government remains tyrannical? What if -- when the pandemic is over -- folks sue the government for its destruction of life, liberty and property only to learn that the government gave itself immunity from such lawsuits? What if -- when the pandemic is over -- the government refuses to acknowledge its end?
What if -- as Thomas Jefferson said -- the blood of patriots should be spilled on the tree of revolution at least once in every generation? What if we nullify the government that has nullified our rights?
Judge Andrew Napolitano
BuckSutherland
5 year old buck +
https://kstp.com/minnesota-news/dul...related-losses-may-21-2020/5737523/?cat=12196
Our hospitals are underwhelmed to the point of almost being empty. Major destruction happening to our hospitality industry now too and I would guess by the end of the summer a large portion of the businesses will be closed forever. They can take all the stay at home orders, stop the spread, flatten the curve bullshit and shove it straight up there ass. There should be no more restrictions, orders or anything.
bwoods11
5 year old buck +
The clinics and hospitals turning away people due to Covid-19 might rank as one of the dumbest decisions in US History? Now many are in financial trouble, it has led to outside deaths or failed health, and it was not necessary (with a few exceptions like NY City). I saw that several small town hospitals are going to close permanently.
Freeborn
5 year old buck +
My BIL and SIL are Dr. of Pharmacy and work in one of the Major Hospital Systems in the Twin Cities. Their Hospital is not designated a COVID hospital so they don't keep COVID patients in their hospital. They are not doing elective work so their hospital is forcing mandatory time off and permanent layoffs. Luckily they have only had to take vacation time so far but eventually it may catch up to them.
One thing that needs to come out of this experience is how to handle elderly who are at end of life. Many of the patients who are in end of life situations are kept alive because of a constant mix of drugs that is given to them or fed to them intravenously. Shutting down the country for people at the end of their life seems like the wrong decision to me. Maybe if these people were allowed to die naturally we would not be in this situation. Citizens should be required to dictate their end of life wishes when they turn a certain age (50)? That way its on record and should eliminate some of this life through Chemistry.
One thing that needs to come out of this experience is how to handle elderly who are at end of life. Many of the patients who are in end of life situations are kept alive because of a constant mix of drugs that is given to them or fed to them intravenously. Shutting down the country for people at the end of their life seems like the wrong decision to me. Maybe if these people were allowed to die naturally we would not be in this situation. Citizens should be required to dictate their end of life wishes when they turn a certain age (50)? That way its on record and should eliminate some of this life through Chemistry.
IkemanTx
5 year old buck +
Actually... the clearest driver is age. Far and away.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
bigbendmarine
5 year old buck +
Not ONE person has died in Florida under the age of 25... NOT A SINGLE ONE.
Thankfully, Gov Desantis hasn't given in to political pressure from the left and media, reminding them that the original primary driver for closures / distancing / etc, was to keep hospital beds from being filled, which he's made clear here in Florida hasn't happened, thus justifying measured reopening.
Having a young daughter, the thing that saddens (and angers) me is that kids have been so heavily impacted by school closures, will be bearing the burden for many years via taxes in the productive years, and statistically faced ZERO risk from the disease. I'm ashamed our society let this happen (and a fair number want it to continue).
And I should add the better half is a medical doctor and I manage her practice... we're NOT anti-science and have tracked data like hawks. It's just that the honest truth is that to date the virus has impacted mostly the aged who ALSO have had SIGNIFICANT comorbidities.
Buckly
5 year old buck +
age by far and also inept Governor policies regarding nursing homes. I don’t know what statistics Knuhrke is reading. Florida is very populous but, not anywhere near the problems of these other States.
- Status