Confusion on 2nd/4rd/4th leaf designation?

[Derek Reese 29]

Hello everyone,
Just wondering if anyone could clear some things up for me.
I have ~3 dozen fruit trees that I planted last spring. Probably 2/3 were from NWC and the others were from various other nurseries/orchards.
How would I classify these trees age wise? They have been in the ground for a year on my place, but some of them came pretty well established (almost 1" diameter).
Are they considered 2nd leaf?
I also planted some in November. Would they be considered 2nd leaf or not till next year in November? Just confused on how the naming works and I know someone on here could help straighten things out.
Thank you!

 

[H20fwler]

For me it’s whenever I plant them?
I call them first leaf fall of the year they are grafted, but have also called bare root I bought and planted first leaf once they are in the ground that had to be at least second year trees.

After a few years it really doesn’t matter they all catch up and are about same size if planted within a few years of each other.

 

[Rubee]

Now you have me confused too. I always assumed first leaf was the year a seedling germinated. No wonder mine seem a few years behind lol

 

[yoderjac]

I've seen the term "leaf" used most often with respect to grafting in the field. For example, if I graft persimmon trees in the spring and the graft takes, that summer is their 1st leaf after grafting. The following year is the second leaf.

With this use, the term "leaf" doesn't relate directly to age. The rootstock could be 5 years old or more before the graft. This is one reason it is not uncommon to get the first fruit after bark grafting a persimmon in the field in the 3rd leaf. If the rootstock was 5 years old, the tree would be 8 years old in the 3rd leaf after grafting.

When I talk about the age of a tree, it is from the time it was germinated as a seed or grafted to clonal rootstock. When you buy from a nursery, they are often sold by size rather than age.

Now, keep in mind that when you see "years to fruit" advertised by nurseries, they are very optimistic to start with. They are not an average. Second, when you plant a bare root tree (vs a rootmaker tree or B&B tree) the old saying is 1st year sleep, 2nd year creep, third year leap. Basically, the stress of reestablishing the root system and adapting to the new environment slow the development of the tree.

In the end, trees are a long-term investment. I would add 3-6 years or more to most nursery estimates of first fruit before you get enough fruit to become a significant food source for deer.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[chickenlittle]

There is no standard or correct way and too many variations. Benchgrafted, summer budded, field grafted, regrafted, sleepy eye, etc. All have variation in the age of the rootstock vs the scion. Not worth worrying about.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I was really looking into this to see about possible fertilization. I guessed (maybe even correctly) that the trees with the larger bases (even just below the graft) would probably be ok to add some fertilizer to.

 

[chickenlittle]

There's been discussions of fertilizing, when and how much. I don't fertilize but if I did, I like the approach that Turkey Creek has mentioned. If you are getting a certain amount of growth, it doesn't need more fertilizer. If less than that amount, add some fertilizer. You'll have to search for his posts on the topic. I know those threads have others opinions on how much and when (early, split applications, but not after say July to avoid growth that won't harden off before winter).

 

[yoderjac]

Also, I think the recommendation to avoid fertilizer applies generally to bare root trees. I fertilize my Rootmaker trees at planting time with good results, but it is a little different. Here are my thoughts. With newly grafted trees like bench grafted apples that are directly planted in their final location, the tree is going though a lot of trauma and recovery. The scion and rootstock are becoming acquainted, the clonal rootstock is trying to establish, and the new tree is adapting to the planting location all at once. It is more a time for healing and adaptation than stimulating fast vegetative growth. With trees that have been growing in a bed for a year or two that are dug up and sold as bar root, a significant amount of roots are cut by the spade or torn off when extracting it. Then the soil is removed and fine terminal roots are torn off. Likewise, when these trees are planted at their final location, there is a period of adaptation. The root system is retarded and needs to reestablish itself. It can't support rapid top-growth during this period. In fact, trees are often pruned back to balance the amount of top with the root system so the the root system has time to recover and catch up.

With my rootmaker trees, things are different. I'm planting in heavy clay but using Promix as the container medium. So, there is a big water infiltration difference. I use an auger that is the same diameter as the container so there is a tight fit. I also dig the hole much deeper and back fill it with some stone and then some native clay. I dump my fertilizer in next and then add another layer of native clay before putting my tree into the hole leaving about an inch of medium above ground level. I then use the remaining native clay to mound around the tree covering the promix. This helps keep ground water from running into the hole. What water enters the hold during our rainy springs pools in the stone below the roots rather than drowning the roots. By summer the lateral roots have grown into the clay which holds water much better.

Because the RB2 containers unwrap, the air pruned root system is completely undisturbed. These trees begin growing immediately and are well balanced. I have no issues with stimulating top-growth. Even still, I don't want the fertilizer to burn the roots. That last layer of clay lets the fertilizer dissolve and distribute and the roots grow into it.

When I'm planting bare root trees, I follow advice from guys like Chickenlittle and Turkeycreek. They know trees!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Derek Reese 29]

All of the trees that I planted were bare root. I have a few trees that haven't grown at all. I know they have only been in the ground a year, but I expected something. Maybe I am just being impatient? The ones that didn't grow had solid leaves and they might have grown a tiny bit in height, but there are some trees I have that grew 2-3' in height and added lots of vegetation (and are near the trees that didn't do anything). So maybe I just need to give them another year to establish before messing with fertilizer?

 

[yoderjac]

All of the trees that I planted were bare root. I have a few trees that haven't grown at all. I know they have only been in the ground a year, but I expected something. Maybe I am just being impatient? The ones that didn't grow had solid leaves and they might have grown a tiny bit in height, but there are some trees I have that grew 2-3' in height and added lots of vegetation (and are near the trees that didn't do anything). So maybe I just need to give them another year to establish before messing with fertilizer?

You've just finished sleeping. This year they should creep. Don't get too anxious until after next year is over.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

You've just finished sleeping. This year they should creep. Don't get too anxious until after next year is over.

That is good to know! My family is adding a member this spring and I have 44 more trees to plant before that new kiddo arrives so fertilizing was gonna be way down on the list of priorities anyway...

 

[PatinPA]

That is good to know! My family is adding a member this spring and I have 44 more trees to plant before that new kiddo arrives so fertilizing was gonna be way down on the list of priorities anyway...

Congrats. That's fantastic.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Congrats. That's fantastic.

Thanks!

 

[g squared 23]

I usually go by the number of times the tree has leafed out in its final destination. I have normally bought bare root whips, and the first spring is their “1st leaf” to me. I do have a batch of bench grafts that will make their way out into the field, and I’ll continue with the same method for consistency’s sake.


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[H20fwler]

I was really looking into this to see about possible fertilization. I guessed (maybe even correctly) that the trees with the larger bases (even just below the graft) would probably be ok to add some fertilizer to.

I have fertilized a very little the year after planting, use triple ten or twelve and keep out from tree 2'-3' with 1/4 cup once in early spring when they first leaf out. Not seeing much growth the first year in ground is not unusual. The biggest growth going on then is with the roots, I have had first year trees take off pretty good before and grow a few branches and a couple feet while ones twenty feet away same variety just leaf out good. Soil differences only twenty feet away can really vary. I have even had a couple that just stayed same whip size for 2-3 years then all of the sudden took off and now look great.

I wouldn't recommend fertilizing trees same year they are grafted at all, way too easy to burn the hair roots and kill the grafts (I learned the hard way).