Bait and Mineral sites can become contaminated with CWD

Hopefully yes. In Wisconsin every politician from the governor Walker on down is attempting to get credit for taking great strides in slowing the spread of CWD. However, every politician is also deliberately ignoring the biggest elephant in the room .... no politician will even hint at eliminating baiting statewide in Wisconsin. Can politicians be responsible deer and habitat managers?

Politicians are driven by one thing, potential votes (which can also take the form of money). Few are willing to do what is right when their personal future is on the line. As long as the lions share of hunters want to be baiters and other interest groups have an interest in lower populations in the long term, politicians will fall in line. Most professional wildlife biologists will tell you, it is much easier to manage wildlife than to manage people. Even when they have a slam dunk scientific case for a particular policy, unless they can get the interest groups on board, they are unlikely to be able to implement it.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Too late for some but not others. Our state was pretty proactive instituting tighter restrictions on deer pens as well as eliminating feeding deer from Sep through Jan regardless if by hunters or others. Yes, CWD still made it into our state, but the spread has been pretty slow so far. I'm convinced the proactive stance our game department took was a significant factor in slowing CWD. Some would foolishly say that because we don't have a complete understanding of the disease we should ignore the science and weight habitat management on the same level as baiting. We rarely have complete information about any disease epidemic. Instead we take the best scientific information and avoid practices that the preponderance of the evidence suggest can promote disease spread and utilize the best practices that don't.

Clearly management of deer in the presence of CWD is a challenging and controversial topic. Responsible managers will use the best science available to make the most prudent decision rather than saying things like "nobody knows for sure so every practice is equal".

Thanks,

Jack

If it shows up in your state, it’s too late. Plain and simple. Wisconsin took a very very hard stance on it, when it came into the state. Rules about transporting deer, having sharp shooters come in, changing season dates, Did it slow down spread? it probably slowed it down some. Did it stop it, nope. Now it’s starting to pop up in areas not even close to the eradication zone. So pretty simple, the day it shows up in your state, it’s too late. It may take 10-20 years like wisconsin, but eventually it still spreads.
 
If it shows up in your state, it’s too late. Plain and simple. Wisconsin took a very very hard stance on it, when it came into the state. Rules about transporting deer, having sharp shooters come in, changing season dates, Did it slow down spread? it probably slowed it down some. Did it stop it, nope. Now it’s starting to pop up in areas not even close to the eradication zone. So pretty simple, the day it shows up in your state, it’s too late. It may take 10-20 years like wisconsin, but eventually it still spreads.

I'm not sure if that is the case. Our state got an early start before it got here. There may be environmental factors involved as well as differences in deer behavior between regions. Our CWD probably got to the neighboring state via deer pens, but not here. Rather than having multiple hot spots like some of the Midwest states had, our cases are still pretty much on the border counties moving slowly from the border state. Will we need to deal with CWD issues? Undoubtedly, but hopefully the proactive prudent measures our state took will slow the disease until we can develop a better scientific understanding of the disease vectors.

The most frightening thing about CWD is its similarity to CJD. If it ever jumps the species barrier, we won't be hunting deer anymore but eliminating them. My point was not that we will not be impacted by CWD but that it is not too late to impose very tight regulation and monitoring of deer pen operations.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I think the biggest issue on all this is the deer farms. All they are about is making fast cash and they have been at square one on all of the disease issues and still for some reason continue to be allowed to operate.

I am not in a high deer density area, some properties are way better than others but overall my area is not a trophy destination for anyone but locals. We also don’t have deer farms or any disease issues locally that I’ve heard of.
I plant everything I can to help all wildlife in my area even putting in ponds making my properties as attractive as I can for everything from deer to butterflies. I also run a couple feeders and mineral sites year round, I have for decades. I look at it as another link in the chain to stewarding all wildlife and to help hold wildlife on my properties not to just put it in front of a gun or bow.
 
I'm not sure if that is the case. Our state got an early start before it got here. There may be environmental factors involved as well as differences in deer behavior between regions. Our CWD probably got to the neighboring state via deer pens, but not here. Rather than having multiple hot spots like some of the Midwest states had, our cases are still pretty much on the border counties moving slowly from the border state. Will we need to deal with CWD issues? Undoubtedly, but hopefully the proactive prudent measures our state took will slow the disease until we can develop a better scientific understanding of the disease vectors.

The most frightening thing about CWD is its similarity to CJD. If it ever jumps the species barrier, we won't be hunting deer anymore but eliminating them. My point was not that we will not be impacted by CWD but that it is not too late to impose very tight regulation and monitoring of deer pen operations.

Thanks,

Jack


Right, my point was, regardless of regulations to deer pens (which I completely 100% support) once your state has it, it will spread. It might take time, but it will. As for cjd, there was a study done in Canada where they fed infected meat to monkeys and they came down with it. So it could very well jump species. It’s best to get your deer tested to have peace of mind.
 
My 2 cents..I don't think the spread in WI has slowed at all, the numbers are lower because less testing is being done. The WI deer farm lobby has Walker and his people in thier hip pocket.

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Most diseases have a single point of origin "patient zero" and spread outward from there. With human diseases, there can sometimes be multiple outbreak points especially with diseases that have long incubation periods before symptoms present. This is because humans have long distance travel which gives "patient zero" and opportunity to infect others at diverse locations. With non-migratory animals, the spread pattern typically generally radiates out from a central location until it his a geographic barrier.

CWD was different. It had multiple outbreak points that were geographically separated. They correlate with deer pen operations. Deer pens concentrate deer and often transport deer from one operation to another. When there is an interaction, typically unintentional, between penned deer that are infected with free ranging local deer and a new hotspot is created.

Eliminating deer pens would not slow the spread in native populations. As Pep says, that genie is out of the bottle. Different states are in different positions regarding CWD. States that were proactive in increasing regulation and monitoring of penned deer operations are clearly having a positive impact on the spread.

Thanks,

Jack
 
My 2 cents..I don't think the spread in WI has slowed at all, the numbers are lower because less testing is being done. The WI deer farm lobby has Walker and his people in thier hip pocket.

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Agreed. Although the actual number of deer testing positive has decreased, the percentage of deer testing positive has increased. To me the spread seems slower than initially anticipated but the infection rate in those areas with the disease shows no signs of slowing down.
 
How can you say eliminating deer pens will NOT slow the spread when your previous paragraph stated penned deer can spread it thru the fence to the wild population and that it can be spread long distances by the transportation of infected penned deer? Here in WI we have even had several cases of holes in fences and deer escaping penned deer farms.
Most diseases have a single point of origin "patient zero" and spread outward from there. With human diseases, there can sometimes be multiple outbreak points especially with diseases that have long incubation periods before symptoms present. This is because humans have long distance travel which gives "patient zero" and opportunity to infect others at diverse locations. With non-migratory animals, the spread pattern typically generally radiates out from a central location until it his a geographic barrier.

CWD was different. It had multiple outbreak points that were geographically separated. They correlate with deer pen operations. Deer pens concentrate deer and often transport deer from one operation to another. When there is an interaction, typically unintentional, between penned deer that are infected with free ranging local deer and a new hotspot is created.

Eliminating deer pens would not slow the spread in native populations. As Pep says, that genie is out of the bottle. Different states are in different positions regarding CWD. States that were proactive in increasing regulation and monitoring of penned deer operations are clearly having a positive impact on the spread.

Thanks,

Jack

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Agreed. Although the actual number of deer testing positive has decreased, the percentage of deer testing positive has increased. To me the spread seems slower than initially anticipated but the infection rate in those areas with the disease shows no signs of slowing down.
The last 6 years of testing track proportionally ... the more you sample .... the more CWD you find. The recent increase in sampling is good. But, is current sampling program broad enough to indicate how fast and where CWD is spreading, and/or increasing with any reasonable confidence?
WI-CWD-sampling.JPG
https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/wildlifehabitat/results.html
 
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How can you say eliminating deer pens will NOT slow the spread when your previous paragraph stated penned deer can spread it thru the fence to the wild population and that it can be spread long distances by the transportation of infected penned deer? Here in WI we have even had several cases of holes in fences and deer escaping penned deer farms.

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Deer pens are where the chain of events in a CWD often begin in a CWD free area. The biggest issue with deer pens is the transport of infected deer into a non-affected area along with the high concentration of deer. In a similar disease, Mad Cow, feed was a factor for penned animals. While deer pens may have been the initial source in an otherwise disease free area, once the local free ranging population becomes infected, the spread pattern suggests that even if you eliminate the offending deer pen operation, you don't have a significant impact on stopping the thread.

My point is that Pep is right when he says that once an area is infected you are going to have the disease. At the same time, tightening restrictions on penned operations and increasing monitoring can have a huge impact in keeping the disease out of unaffected areas.

I am not arguing that eliminating deer pens or tightening regulations is not a good idea in any state. I'm simply saying states that already have a major CWD problem will benefit less from these than a state that has no cases of CWD.

Thanks,

Jack
The last 6 years of testing track proportionally ... the more you sample .... the more CWD you find. The recent increase in sampling is good. But, is current sampling program broad enough to indicate how fast and where CWD is spreading, and/or increasing with any reasonable confidence?
View attachment 18333
https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/wildlifehabitat/results.html

I'd say this is a pretty typical of how game departments work. When a new threat emerges and they don't know what the impacts will be, testing is high. The idea is that perhaps if they can isolate it they can stop or slow the spread. At some point they believe they realize it has become ubiquitous and can't be contained. The focus turns to longer term monitoring. I presume they are monitoring enough for statistical significance but I certainly don't know your game department.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I agree with others and its frustrating! Until the Board of Animal Health and the DNR or State Game Dept. are all on the same page, it just seems like a waste of time.

If I find a deer with CWD on my property, the state will hire sharp-shooters and eradicate every deer possible for miles. But if a deer farm has a CWD positive deer, they can just remove that deer and call it good. Thats just ridiculous. Everyone has to be in on the same rules for it to work out.
 
Deer like to congregate. Not going to stop that. Deer like to groom and associate with each other. Not going to stop that. Wether its 'artificially' encouraged or organic, does it really matter? Take a natural deer herd with reasonable population and watch bachelor groups with 10, 15 or more bucks hanging out all summer together. Mineral licks got nothing to do with that. Its their nature. See maternal groups with couple of generations hanging out together at certain times of the year. Licking, grooming,jockeying for hierarchy...all part of normal deer behavior in normal deer herds. Concentration around a mineral site or deer feeder is irrelevant when looking at the big picture of deer behavior.
 
http://www.waow.com/story/38218777/2018/05/17/deer-farmer-explains-cwd-resistance-breeding

This is an interesting short article. Not so much about the politics but the fact this deer farm is trying to find a solution to CWD after it showed up in their pen.
The Flees family probably knows as much about deer biology, health, nutrition and genetics as anyone on the planet.They are highly respected by the preponderance of the top whitetail biologist in the country and have been on the leading edge on many fronts for decades.
 
Deer like to congregate. Not going to stop that. Deer like to groom and associate with each other. Not going to stop that. Wether its 'artificially' encouraged or organic, does it really matter? Take a natural deer herd with reasonable population and watch bachelor groups with 10, 15 or more bucks hanging out all summer together. Mineral licks got nothing to do with that. Its their nature. See maternal groups with couple of generations hanging out together at certain times of the year. Licking, grooming,jockeying for hierarchy...all part of normal deer behavior in normal deer herds. Concentration around a mineral site or deer feeder is irrelevant when looking at the big picture of deer behavior.

That is like saying the number 10 is the same as the number 1000. They are both numbers. They both have a 1 and zeros...no real difference. Epidemics have a tipping point. When transmission is below a certain level, incidents tend to burn out. Once numbers reach that tipping point, it becomes very difficult to control an outbreak. This is not disease specific but applies generally to epidemiology.

Recently there is a great concern over an ebola outbreak in the Congo. The big concern is not over the fact that there is an outbreak. They have had many, but they are generally in rural areas where contact between people is "natural" (natural in an evolutionary sense). They tend to burn out with good sanitary practices. The big concern is that this time the diseases reached a major city where people contacts between people is "artificially" (again in an evolutionally sense) high. They are worried about it hitting the tipping point and reaching epidemic proportion. Fortunately, there is a trial vaccine that is proving to be very effective that is being used to combat this.

Yes, there will always be a level of interaction between deer that will facilitate some level of disease spread. It is when that contact is increased by unusual means that significantly increase the chances of hitting that tipping point. Once that tipping point is hit, much more extreme measure are required to control the outbreak as much as possible. It is much better to maximize best practices like eliminating baiting and regulating deer pen operations and the like before things get out of control.

Given that there is no scientific evidence to support that mineral supplements benefit free ranging deer, it seems like mineral licks are a risk with no definitive benefit.

Thanks,

Jack
 
http://www.waow.com/story/38218777/2018/05/17/deer-farmer-explains-cwd-resistance-breeding

This is an interesting short article. Not so much about the politics but the fact this deer farm is trying to find a solution to CWD after it showed up in their pen.
I'm sure the deer farmers would love to be seen as the saviors of american deer hunting. Perhaps they could clone their genetically chosen deer and sell them to the DNR and landowners to replace the wild herd. What a great business opportunity!

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That is like saying the number 10 is the same as the number 1000. They are both numbers. They both have a 1 and zeros...no real difference. Epidemics have a tipping point. When transmission is below a certain level, incidents tend to burn out. Once numbers reach that tipping point, it becomes very difficult to control an outbreak. This is not disease specific but applies generally to epidemiology.

Recently there is a great concern over an ebola outbreak in the Congo. The big concern is not over the fact that there is an outbreak. They have had many, but they are generally in rural areas where contact between people is "natural" (natural in an evolutionary sense). They tend to burn out with good sanitary practices. The big concern is that this time the diseases reached a major city where people contacts between people is "artificially" (again in an evolutionally sense) high. They are worried about it hitting the tipping point and reaching epidemic proportion. Fortunately, there is a trial vaccine that is proving to be very effective that is being used to combat this.

Yes, there will always be a level of interaction between deer that will facilitate some level of disease spread. It is when that contact is increased by unusual means that significantly increase the chances of hitting that tipping point. Once that tipping point is hit, much more extreme measure are required to control the outbreak as much as possible. It is much better to maximize best practices like eliminating baiting and regulating deer pen operations and the like before things get out of control.

Given that there is no scientific evidence to support that mineral supplements benefit free ranging deer, it seems like mineral licks are a risk with no definitive benefit.

Thanks,

Jack
Too superficial a response to be helpful in my opinion Jack. Lets dig deeper. Assume the questions are; How is CWD contracted and how does it spread? What are the contributors including mineral sites, baiting, and deer breeders?

First, to qualify any responses I may have I am not a deer breeder. Frankly deer from breeder facilities don't interest me much and I have no allegiance to the industry at all. That said I have been around deer breeding facilities since the early 70's starting with the research pens at Ms. State run by Dr. Harry Jacobson. I currently have several close friends heavily involved with deer breeding so I am quite familiar with how deer breeders operate and many details involved.

I do use mineral stations on my farm and also am currently running 150 protein supplemental feeding stations of which 20 are on the farm I live on. I observe deer around these stations essentially daily.

So with those caveats I think it interesting to explore the questions about CWD unemotionally and recognize it appears to me there is more unknown than known though important to us all who love deer. Starting with mineral stations and baiting one question is how many ' different ' deer might visit any particular station. Agreed it somewhat depends on population density, but also would propose that the preponderance of deer visiting any station are the same ones over and over. I would also propose that these deer all know each other intimately and have frequent contact with each other. The idea that a baiting station or mineral block somehow changes the dynamic dramatically enough to create a 'tipping point' doesn't register with me. Probably most of us have had the opportunity to see herds of deer all gathered around acorn trees, food plots, loafing areas, etc etc where they are licking, grooming, tussling, jockeying for position, fighting and behaving like deer. Much the same behavior I observe around a feeder. To me whatever vector that made its way to a mineral or bait station will also be just as prevalent wherever deer congregate as they do in normal behavior patterns.

I realize many contend that deer breeders are responsible not only for creating CWD but for its spread . I have a few questions about that. How did CWD ever show up in a particular deer breeders facility in the first place [ excepting the facility in Co. where it apparently originated ]? Are we assuming there is no CWD that doesn't originate except from deer breeders? Seems unlikely to me. I can appreciate that if CWD does show up in a particular breeders facility that a) it will be likely to spread through out the facility and b) there should be definitive legislation to deal with that just as there would be with any captive animal related disease.

Another question is how does CWD spread from one spot to another? Seems the likely scenarios include ; 1) deer breeders transporting infected deer from one place to another. Many states have moats around them not letting captive deer in or out so how many deer actually get transported out of state by deer breeders? And what % of those are actually infected? 2) State agencies.- They have transported deer all over the nation, state to state, county to county in great numbers. Can we be sure they have never transported contaminates?
3) Research facilities - I know for a fact that Ms. State has sent deer all over the country as well as received deer from all over the country. Reasonable to assume other universities and research facilities have done the same. The numbers of deer they move are material and they have also released numbers of deer into the wild. 4) Hunters- It would seem unarguable to me that hunters move more deer parts around the country annually than all the above combined by a large margin. It seems confirmed science that dead deer parts can transfer the disease. Where are all the deer parts hunters move ? As I appreciate it the Prion never degrades but that science is above my pay grade.

I am all for finding solutions to the CWD problem. I don't think there is any one simple scapegoat. I personally think the idea that mineral and baiting stations are contributory is shallow, political and totally irrelevant . I personally believe it an overreach to outlaw deer breeders blaming them for the spread of CWD.I believe appropriate standards, measurements and controls should be placed on deer breeders and in doing so the risk they represent can be eliminated. I fear any effort to control hunters moving infected parts place to place will be ineffective UNTIL all hunters understand the problem and solution. This will take an expansive educational process. Lastly , and this is just my opinion, I do not think the sky is falling with CWD and solutions will evolve. Ironic that one solution being explored involves a vaccination which most likely will need to be administered orally...thru a feed station.
 
Deer farms, mineral sites, and anything that causes deer to congregate will contribute to the spread of CWD. The prions are spread through saliva, so any shared source of food, water, minerals, etc. will cause the disease to spread. Obviously, the longer these sites are active, the more risk they have to becoming contaminated, and the more deer that will be put at risk by visiting them. It is therefore an unwise practice in areas known to have CWD.

As to where it came from, no one knows. It can be created by an animal with a genetic mutation, and it can be spread through contact with infected animals and contaminated sources. It maybe have come from deer being in proximity to other species that were infected with the prions such as sheep or cattle. No one has yet identified the exact origin of CWD.
 
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