Apple tree cuttings

[Bill Loser]

So i found a mystery tree on my property thos season. It is some kind of crab i think. It did produce a decent amount of apples this year before i found it.
So i cut some new growth off of it about 4 weeks or so ago. I dipped the ends in rooting hormone and stuck them in some sand. 9 then covered them with some plastic and have kept them in windows and on top of the drier to keep them.warm.
To my surprise, all of them have started budding out! They all are showing signs of new growth and look really good.
So the question is, how long do i leave them in the sand? I have not pulled anything out so i dont know what the roots (if any) look like yet. Afraid to i guess!
Any other tips, or things i need to know to make this as productive as possible?

 

[yoderjac]

Bill,

That is not surprising at all. If you don't have cambium aligned properly when grafting, or if a bark graft doesn't take, it is not uncommon for buds to break dormancy and grow for a while then die. While green buds pushing out and producing growth are a good sign, they are not dispositive of success.

The real question is what is happening under the sand. Are they producing roots or is the growth you've experienced just coming from the energy stored in the scions. While apples can root easily compared to some trees like persimmons, I don't predict success given your description.

What you are doing is a good learning experience. In order to maximize success, I would put them under artificial lights. Dr. Whitcomb admonishes folks against starting trees from seed in a greenhouse in the winter. The tops can look great, but they develop very poor root systems because of the poor angle and intensity of the sun in the winter. If you want to start trees early in the winter you need artificial light. Inexpensive fluorescent shop lights are sufficient. Light intensity diminishes with the distance squared, Fluorescent lights are cool enough that they can be hung within 2 or 3 inches of the tree. Nuts and seeds store energy and are designed to produce roots and top growth. We ask a lot of a scion to produce roots and top growth. The top growth will generally be way ahead of the roots since it is already formed. So, without artificial light in the winter you are disadvantaged.

Next, because top growth is advantaged over the non-existent roots, when starting trees from dormant scions, the idea is to advantage the root development. You took one step, and that was using rooting hormone. Another step is to warm the soil while keeping the tops cool so they don't break dormancy. The warm soil promotes root development to help balance the tree. After a while (how long probably depends on how easily the tree species roots), bring them out of the cold and put them under lights. You can do this by putting them in an unheated garage or basement on heating pads. You want to keep the tops under 50 degrees so they don't break dormancy.

Even if you do all this, it is not the easiest way to cone the tree.

Here is what I suggest you do:

1) Before the tree breaks dormancy, collect some more scions.
2) As soon as the ground thaws dig up some roots. You are looking for roots that are about pencil sized like the scions.
3) Cut the root at that pencil size and keep all of the roots down to the distal end.
4) When the weather breaks this spring, graft the scions to the roots and plant them.

I did not realize you could graft directly to roots until I took a grafting class and the master grafted told us he did that all the time when he was young and they ran out of clonal rootstock. He would just go to the orchard and dig up roots from an established tree.

I hope it works for you, but don't get too excited yet.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[Bill Loser]

Thanks for the information! Not exactly what i was hoping for but kind of what i expected!
I gently pulled one out of the sand to see what was going on. Unfortunately i don't see any root growth at all. So I decided to keep them on the drier to to keep them warm ( we have 3 kids under 13 so the drier gets a work out every day!!) And am keeping a light on them. Not sure what to expect at all! Im totally new to all this, so new that i dont know what you mean by the cambium and the distal end of the root! I will have to do some more research on all thos and try to learn what i can!
Thanks again for the info! Much appreciated!

 

[yoderjac]

Bill,

No problem. We are all learning on this site and paying it forward! I used a couple terms you will hear in science that apply to both plants and medicine, proximal and distal. Proximal means "closer to the body" and distal means "further from the body". So, when you dig up and cut a root off, the end closer to the tree is the proximal end and the end furthest from the tree is the distal end.

When you cut your dormant scions, if you looked at the cut end when they were freshly cut, you would see the wood in the center, and the bark on the outside. Just inside the bark, you will see a green layer. This is the cambium layer. If you scratch the bark off with your thumb, you will see green under the bark, that is cambium. That is the layer that transfers the nutrients from the roots to the tree.

There are lots of kind of grafting, but many of the most common (Whip and Tongue, Cleft, etc.) rely on cambium alignment between the rootstock and scion. This is how the rootstock "feeds" energy to the scion as it grows.

By the way, what you are doing is trying to clone the apple tree using dormant cuttings. You called it a mystery tree, so I don't know if it grew from seed there naturally or if someone planted a grafted tree. When you hear about specific varieties of apples (winesap, golden delicious, chestnut crab, ...) they are all clones of a single tree. Someone took a scion from the parent tree (or one of its clones) and grafted it to some kind of rootstock. So, the bottom of the tree is from one tree but the top that produces the fruit is an exact clone of the parent tree. We don't get this when we grow trees from seed.

So in your case, I suggested in the previous post taking a root cutting and grafting a scion from the tree to it. If you know this tree was grown from seed and not grafted, both the roots and top are from the same tree, so you don't even need to graft it. You can simply take a root cutting and plant it. Take one about pencil size in diameter and plant it with the proximal end just a half inch below the surface. You can do this in a pot or in the garden. If you do it in a pot, you can put it under lights. If you do it in the garden just wait for spring. It won't be long before the root produces a sprout. This root cutting technique is much more successful for most trees than trying to root a dormant cutting. The key is that it must be a root cutting from a seed grown tree. If you do it from a grafted tree, the tree will have the characteristics of the rootstock, not of the top of the tree that you want.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Bill Loser]

I will definitely try the root cutting in the spring, unless the ground thaws enough before to dig up some roots. I am sure this tree grew from seed, not much chance the previous owner planted it, I'm just surprised I never saw it before this year. Until then, I'm going to push ahead with my cuttings to see what happens. Im not overly optimistic , but what the hell, I'm this far in might as well see it to the end!

Thanks again for the info! Also for dumbing it down somewhat for me!

 

[yoderjac]

I will definitely try the root cutting in the spring, unless the ground thaws enough before to dig up some roots. I am sure this tree grew from seed, not much chance the previous owner planted it, I'm just surprised I never saw it before this year. Until then, I'm going to push ahead with my cuttings to see what happens. Im not overly optimistic , but what the hell, I'm this far in might as well see it to the end!

Thanks again for the info! Also for dumbing it down somewhat for me!

Either way, it will be a great learning experience. While starting trees in the winter in a root pruning container system allows me to plant lots of trees at the farm for a low cost per tree, it is just as much a cabin fever fun learning experience for me.

Thanks,

jack

 

[mikmaze]

keeping them on the cooler side may help them get to rooting before the leaf out, slow em down so they don't blow their wad. so to say.

 

[yoderjac]

keeping them on the cooler side may help them get to rooting before the leaf out, slow em down so they don't blow their wad. so to say.

Yep, warm medium and cool tops are the best combination but not easy for the beginner to achieve.

 

[DLH]

If you have some lower limbs with new growth you might can layer one with sawdust in a container or bend it over and cover with dirt. Anyone have thoughts on adding rock phosphate to layeringoe roofing medium?