Apple tree advice

[Stubborn1VT]

So 5+ years ago I planted a few apple trees in a fallow strip in my food plot. This was before I was aware of CAR. Those varieties haven't amounted to much, so I did some research and ordered 3 more resistant varieties from Stark Bros. Out of those 3, one died (wet feet), a Wolf River hasn't grown much, and a Liberty has done quite well. I also transplanted some wild apples from my family farm, but they didn't show CAR resistance, and/or don't care for my clay soil. There are 2 native trees in this area. One that is mature and produces small apples every 2 years, and a young crab apple with tiny fruit.
My questions:
1: Do I replace the struggling trees altogether?
2: What would you pair with the Liberty as far as pollination and CAR resistance?
3: Would you try to top work the existing trees to get a more suitable variety?
I am considering buying field grown trees, but I can only afford 1 a year. These are 10-12' trees ready to fruit.
4. Is it risky to transplant these bigger trees?
5: If you could only plant one or two apple trees for wildlife, what variety would you choose?

Thanks for reading. I have proven myself a newbie when it comes to apples, but I have done some research. I'm looking for input with more experienced folks before I get fed up and turn this whole strip into clover.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Don’t buy the big trees! Transplanting them can be rough and you need to water them a lot and baby them. I would top work your existing CAR affected trees (I do not know if they will impact the trees you choose to top work to). Then I would order a Droptine from whitetail crabs and a Roadkill from Blue Hill. They grow really fast and my RK took only 1.5 years to fruit. If you can get the biggest trees they offer you’re only gonna spend 40$ at most per tree (shipping not included). If you want to just replace them, get a Liberty (good disease resistance) and maybe a Big Ten from Blue Hill. Also be sure to cage your trees and somehow protect the trunks from rabbits and other little tree-busting varmints.

 

[MW22392]

Agreed, the bigger the tree the more roots need to be cut to transplant, so much more watering would be required. A tree will also only grow as well as it is planted. If the root flare is below grade it will never thrive.

 

[g squared 23]

My stark trees that aren’t blondee or liberty have failed to thrive, so if yours are wimpy looking, I’d chop them down and plant better varieties on better rootstock which is M111 in my clay soil. Enterprise pairs well with Liberty and I think you need a Goldrush despite the risk of CAR.


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[Stubborn1VT]

Thanks for the replies guys. I will probably hold off on buying the larger trees. I'm certainly not worried about water though, and the trees are guaranteed for 1 year.

I do like the idea of Blue Hill trees. I've heard good things about their crabapples.

I think I will try top working a couple of the struggling trees. I'll use scions from my Liberty and a a prolific roadside tree near my family's farm. It was planted 20 years ago, hasn't been maintained at all, and produces loads of apples almost every year.

I think Enterprise is a good bet. I'll avoid Gold rush. There's a solid cedar hedge row less than 50 yards away that I can't do anything about. CAR is no joke.

 

[Tree Spud]

Your pollinator tree selection should match the bloom time of the tree you have. Liberty are early to mid May bloom. Two good choices for bloom partners would be Chesnut and Dolgo apple crabs.

Every Chesnut I have purchased from Stark's has done extremely well. Every grouping of apple trees I plant I include a Chesnut crab. Both chesnut & Dolgo are good wildlife trees. I like Enterprise as a wildlife tree but I think it has a later bloom time.

Personally I would stay away from large trees, too finicky and require lots of attention.

I think your expectation for fruit trees and fast fruiting after initial planting is not a good approach. With apple trees you want the 1st couple of years for the tree to establish a strong root system and strong branching. Important to consider removing early fruit 1st couple years as you want the energy that would go into the fruit to remain in the tree structure development.

 

[bigboreblr]

Stubborn1,

Your ID says VT. Where are you in VT. Elevation? You may be zone 3. A south side slope might accept zone 4, but a notrth side could not do well. Valleys around large elevation are cold sinks too. Distance from good sized bodies of water effect it too.

I am not too far from you and climate too. Western Adirondacks at 1800 feet elevation. Zone is not only how cold a tree can get, also how long a growing season you have. At camp I have little CAR issues, no red cedars around. At home its really bad. Winter injury can be a big issue, not having enough season may not be as much. Your fruit won't be fully ripe or developed. I wouldnt be adding more liberty until it s proven to make consistent fruit.

Clay soil..... Stark and other nurseries often do not tell you what rootstock youre getting. M111 is about as good on clay soil as it gets. Wet feet. I have that issue at home. Drainage channels. If you have a tractor making a small mound can be good too. I've made one or two using 3-4 bucket loads from a 30hp tractor.

Lot of great lakes region folks around here. RE gould is close to my hunting camp in the adirondacks. sandbur's apple experience is in zone 3. Kerr is an excellent choice, hangs on the tree a long time. Numerous varieties from saint lawrence orchards can be pretty good. Violi's, winter wildlife, all winter hangover, big deer, and they have kerr. They put their trees on antonovka roots or siberian crabapple. They got lots of trees left. They also sell siberian crabapple rootstock. Dolgo is popular siberian crabapple. I plant dolgo, turning point, the SLN crabs mentioned, 30-06 crabapple. Macoun is a zone 3 tree. More early season is chestnut, centennial. noza ez gro, sweet 16, keepsake, and frostbite are mid season apples good for zone 3. Franklin cider was originated not too far from you.

If space is an issue, dig up the trees not producing size. If you suspect your getting winter dieback on a variety thats not making size, then topwork that tree. IF you got the room, leave them alone. Some trees take 1 or 2 years to pick up speed. Cold and heat can burn a tree. Winter scalding of the main trunk can be a problem, usually called sun scald. Basically suns heats it pp without having good sap flow through it in the winter. Painting the trunk and some of the lower bases of the main branches is the fix for proeventing any future damage. Also damaged spots can be a host site for further damage from insects in the summer.

Back to the rootstocks. Find a place that sells both trees and rootstocks. Your clay soil I would give dolgo, antonovka, m111, P18, and G890 a try. You could spend 3 or 4 dollars an plant the rootstock alone. Pretty much every rootstock will produce apples that the deer will enjoy. Dolgo is a good early season tree. Antonovka would make some september apples. M111 will make more or less northern spy. Not sure of the others. The low price or the bulk amount can tell you when you can plant a tree and where you can't. In 1 or 2 years, topwork the tree. M7 might be an option too, some places like heavy clay old AG field have a hardpan layer. The roots won't go to their full depth and runt out to an even smaller tree. I am doing that with antonovka and dolgo at my camp. However, that place is sandy soil so I should try B118 up there as well. Ordered a few to try out.

Fedo, saint lawrence nursery, bluehill, mehrabyan nursery, cummins nursery, and turkey creek all have some zone 3 trees and advertise what rootstock they are using. Cummins nursery has very good explanations of the varieties.

In january there will be a scion exchange on here. You can giver or get scions for apples and other fruit on here.

 

[Stubborn1VT]

Champlain Valley. Zone 5A. I do plan on trying some top work on the bigger trees and digging up the smaller. They are planted on a high spot in a 1 acre food plot. I made the mistake of planting too far off the crown and lost a Jonafree.

I have a mature wild tree, a 4 year old Liberty that's doing well, and a transplanted wild tree that I will keep. I may also give a 5 year old Empire one more year. Everything else is a bust. I think you are right about rootstock. I had never heard of CAR when my journey began.

I'm only working on 6 acres, so space is an issue. I need to make sure I plant a pollinator for the Liberty. I intended on buying from blue hill, but I'm not sure I can justify their 4 tree minimum.

Last spring I "discovered" a wild crab apple buried in a patch of tall buckthorn. I was all excited. I released it and gave it a light pruning. It responded well and then produced fruit the size of a dime. Not sure if it's best to leave it as a pollinator for now, or top work it into something else.

I like the idea of apple trees, but so far I have not gotten my money's worth out of my investment. My fault, but it's tempting to turn that spot into perennial clover.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

So 5+ years ago I planted a few apple trees in a fallow strip in my food plot. This was before I was aware of CAR. Those varieties haven't amounted to much, so I did some research and ordered 3 more resistant varieties from Stark Bros. Out of those 3, one died (wet feet), a Wolf River hasn't grown much, and a Liberty has done quite well. I also transplanted some wild apples from my family farm, but they didn't show CAR resistance, and/or don't care for my clay soil. There are 2 native trees in this area. One that is mature and produces small apples every 2 years, and a young crab apple with tiny fruit.
My questions:
1: Do I replace the struggling trees altogether?
2: What would you pair with the Liberty as far as pollination and CAR resistance?
3: Would you try to top work the existing trees to get a more suitable variety?
I am considering buying field grown trees, but I can only afford 1 a year. These are 10-12' trees ready to fruit.
4. Is it risky to transplant these bigger trees?
5: If you could only plant one or two apple trees for wildlife, what variety would you choose?

Thanks for reading. I have proven myself a newbie when it comes to apples, but I have done some research. I'm looking for input with more experienced folks before I get fed up and turn this whole strip into clover.

Question #5 - Liberty and Enterprise. Both excellent DR tree varieties. The rootstock they are grafted to will determine how well they grow in your soil. MM-111 does well in clay soil, as do seedling rootstocks like Antonovka and Dolgo. Those are the main 3 rootstocks we have on our apple trees in our clayish soil. All doing well.

I agree with the guys above who advised planting smaller trees instead of those big 10' to 12' ones. Much easier and better outcomes with smaller trees. We have about 82 to 84 apple & crab trees planted - learned from other guys on here & nursery owners. Protect them with cages and screening to keep mice & voles from girdling the bark = killing your trees. Good luck with your plantings.

 

[bigboreblr]

I am assuming you have been caging them well. Sometimes the mice girdle the tree completely or mame it some. MAke sure the base is clear, the mice like hiding in vegetation.

zone 5. Pretty much get anything. Sounds alot like my home about a mile from the hudson river. Liberty, enterprise, galarina, sundance, arkansas black, and kerr are my main deer season trees at home. I have the other mentioned for zone 3 at camp at home too. So I am guaranteed scion material. I lease 600 acres with a few other people, so anything planted is at risk of destruction. Some will live to log another day, the others can be replaced the next year.

How many acres is open. Best bang for the buck is food plots, trees are the icing on the cake. However, a few good apple trees in a small place might be all you need to get the tags filled. Keep in mind you need to be 20-25 feet away from the trees to do any tillage. Also, if you do spray for insects having clover right under the trees is not good for bees. I got in my backyard 2 rows of 11 trees in about a 1/10th acre spot. Most are M111 spaced 25x25 ft apart. There is a few B118's and an anty in there too. I have a single row of about a dozen trees 16ft apart, all M11. About 30 feet away is my foodplot edge, the other side is about 30 yards of lawn. I bet you could squeeze M7's 15 feet apart. Or have M7's on the south face of the orchard and a row of M111's on the north face and still squeeze them in good.

I am having mehrabyan combine 3 orders into one. One was 15 rootstocks for $70 shipped. (4) M111 trees and a M7 tree for $170 shipped. Third one was for $111 shipped, a asian pear, 2 mulberry trees, a magnolia tree, and 3 B118 rootstocks to try out. Grafting a zone 3 mullberry for september small game hunting . Deer love em too. Fedco has a depot program where they ship your orders to local places to save on shipping. They ship nurseries generally in town to VT (East Dummerston, Manchester Ctr).

Empire is a great tasting apple, lots of juice for cider and makes great applesauce. More of a late sept to mid october dropping tree, so not the best but not the worst for attracting deer at certain times. Empire, Macoun, Sweet 16, Granny Smith, and Sundance will be the best eating apples at home for me. Put in pristine, redfree, williams pride, and chestnut for earlier season trees. You may one one or two so you can collect apples well before hunting season if you'd like. And it's good to have an early one to keep the deer interested over a longer period. Althought liberty will drop a few apple mid to late spetember for them.

 

[H20fwler]

Planting apple trees is a long game, Liberty/Enterprise/Redfield/Arkansas Black/NY114/Galarina all good DR. Adding a good crab apple or two will help with pollination.
M111 is very good in heavy soil/clay and makes a good sized tree. Always screen and cage. Cummins is a very good nursery.

IMO....Stark Bro's sucks

 

[Stubborn1VT]

I started planting apple trees 7 years ago, so it's a good thing I'm not in a hurry.

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[bigboreblr]

H2ofowler,

You mentioned ny 414. Does that tree live up to the hype of being called early macoun. Grafted one on m111 last year.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Good advice above, add in that soil tests are never a waste of time. We also have a good selection of apples remaining. You can check out turkeycreektrees.com

 

[H20fwler]

H2ofowler,

You mentioned ny 414. Does that tree live up to the hype of being called early macoun. Grafted one on m111 last year.

It's a good apple with good DR, I like it. I havent heard any of the hype, just liked what I read about it ten years ago and put one in.
I think I sent you the scions!

 

[bigboreblr]

Think you did, forgot about that. Thanks.

Went to the supermarket last night Wife got cranky at me. Picked up a few macouns, said we had a bunch of apples already. I am suprirsed I can find them so late in the season.

NY 414 is closely related to a liberty. They were shooting for a scab resistant macoun. I wanted that one for my wife. Planted right next to a macoun. They got a tning for sweet 16, so that on 2025's to-do list.

Been a few years since I looked at the neighboring states hunting regs. When does deer hunting wind down in VT. With such a small place to work with, you probably want to focus on drop times during the season there. I live in NY and about 2 hours from PA. You can almost get sick of deer hunting over here, almost. After christmas muzzleloading and PA january flintlock season.

 

[Stubborn1VT]

Our muzzleloader season ended Dec 15th. That's it for Vermont seasons. We got Oct1 until then. A few years ago the powers that be made VT a one buck state, so that shortens up my season considerably. This year I killed 176lb 6 pointer with a small rack on October 19th.

Luckily, I have a number of other properties to hunt. I grew up on a dairy farm in central VT. My brother and his wife are running it, but now it is a beef and hay farm, rather than dairy. I have permission on a few other properties near the farm as well.

I have tried to improve our 6 acres here with some success. It's nice to walk out across our horse pasture and hunt, rather than drive an hour+ to the farm. Oddly enough, I killed my biggest buck here. It's fortunate that the land to the north is largely undisturbed. The land to the south has good bedding, but has seen more and more human activity in the past couple years. Going forward, I hope to do some work to thicken up the property line. Of course, I would like to add to the one wild, apple producing tree I have as well.