Apple/Pear Trees in Clay, wettish soil, Vermont

[Mike Castillo]

I have an area on my property I'd love to plant 8 or 10 fruit trees in. Problem is it is clay soil, and can hold water. I have no idea where to start in terms of species, or even if this is a good idea. Any thoughts?

Thanks! Mike

 

[DrDirtNap]

Short answer is probably not a good idea. I have a small orchard planted in clay soil that holds water in the winter and spring and then gets real dry in the summer and fall. It's been a struggle but my pears on calleryana rootstock are doing OK. My apple trees are dying off. Phytophthora root rot and collar rot a real problem. Some of the newer Geneva rootstock would probably be better for apples since it is more tolerant to Phytophthora but as a general rule wet sites are a no-no. I should also add that my experience is in North MS which I know is a different world compared to Vermont.

 

[yoderjac]

I have an area on my property I'd love to plant 8 or 10 fruit trees in. Problem is it is clay soil, and can hold water. I have no idea where to start in terms of species, or even if this is a good idea. Any thoughts?

Thanks! Mike

Mike,

I'm not sure I have a real good picture of your situation. I'm in apple country and we have heavy clay soil. Apples grow well in it. Holding water can be a great asset during dry periods. So, clay soil, in and of itself, is not a problem. You certainly can have an issue if you plant in areas where ground water collects and ponds. Planting on a slight slope or local high spot avoids the problem. Most of the commercial orchards in my area are on slopes so they don't use mounding. If your area is very flat, the advise provided by NH Mountains is a good option.

One note. If you are planting bare root trees in clay, do not amend the soil. The differential in water infiltration between clay and amended soil can drown you trees at times of ample rain and dry them out during dry periods. Simply back fill the hole with the same soil you removed. If you use the mounding technique NH describes, you will be OK. Since the amended soil (mound) is above the clay, you don't create a pond to drown the tree. Once the roots get into the native clay below the mound, they will have access to retained water during dry periods.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[chickenlittle]

What zone?

MM.111 is said to be a good apple rootstock for heavy soil. The Geneva rootstocks are also tested for crown and root rot but the released rootstocks are more dwarfing than most want for wildlife plantings.

Depending on how harsh your winters are, pacific crabapple (Malus Fusca) could work as a planting or rootstock. It grows along creeks and wet areas on the west coast. That is fairly temperate climate though. Depending on the source, I mostly see Fusca rated to zone 6 or 5. An Oregon nursery, Raintree, sells them as rootstock for fairly cheap. You could plant and tube or cage and see if they survive a few years and then graft.

But if you want to ensure success, I think NH gave you the best option of creating a mound for a high spot.

 

[yoderjac]

M111 is what the commercial orchards here use a lot.

 

[Neahawg]

I'd use either m111 or Anatova if you have real heavy soils. I know m111 is supposed to do well in heavy soil and our Anatovas have done pretty good where ever we planted them.

And if you want to go for easy plant pears instead. I planted bare root pears from the wildlife group in to very heavy Clay soil, reminded me of the stuff you made Clay models with, and they are all doing well.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I asked this very question to the head of Penn State's Fruit tree program and he told me MM-111 is the best rootstock for heavier, wetter, clay type soils. It will give you a bigger tree for wildlife purposes as Chickenlittle pointed out above. Planting on a gentle slope is the best location for natural drainage, regardless of soil type.

If the area is low compared to surrounding land, you may have a " frost pocket " where cold air sinks and spring frosts kill blossoms. ( no apples ). Commercial orchards usually try to plant on south-facing, higher slopes to avoid the frost pocket problems. FWIW.

 

[yoderjac]

Mike,

Any photos and/or maps of the orchard area?

Mike,

I'm not really using an orchard approach. My apple and pear trees are part of a larger permaculture project. My property has a pipeline ROW which acts as our feeding/destination plots. Most of our property is in pine timber with some hardwood riparian buffers. We also have many small harvest plots less than 1/2 acre in size as well as widened logging roads that we planted. I can't plant trees on the pipeline. My approach is to plant small clusters of trees in these small harvest plots and along widened roads. Trees like chestnuts will go along roadways. Trees like apple will go in the old harvest plots that I now refer to as wildlife openings because they need more sun.

Others have used an orchard approach. It just depends on your objectives.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Maya]

I have an area on my property I'd love to plant 8 or 10 fruit trees in. Problem is it is clay soil, and can hold water. I have no idea where to start in terms of species, or even if this is a good idea. Any thoughts?

Thanks! Mike

Hi Mike. Is this on flat ground, a real low area, or on a slope? Where are you located? I'm a little north of Rutland. If it's not to far I'd be happy to stop over and take a look.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Mike - Maya is one of the experts on apples on this forum. ^^^^^^ He has been growing apple trees for some years, and has given good advice to many of us. He's a great source of info.