I will have roughly 25 breeding age bucks and 25 breeding age does on my place this fall. What are the mathematical odds that the best genetic buck and the best genetic doe will get together. Almost freakish. There is some research that indicates does will select for larger antlered bucks which may skew it just a hair more. I have seen the same thing you are speaking of. All your bucks are 150" and down - and most are 125" - and all of a sudden, a very high quality you buck shows up and grows a set of 175" antlers at age 4.5. I think those are freaks - the one out of 25 doe got with the one out of 25 buck - and a freak was born
Anyone still culling bucks to improve antler size?
- Thread starter yoderjac
- Start date
I will have roughly 25 breeding age bucks and 25 breeding age does on my place this fall. What are the mathematical odds that the best genetic buck and the best genetic doe will get together. Almost freakish. There is some research that indicates does will select for larger antlered bucks which may skew it just a hair more. I have seen the same thing you are speaking of. All your bucks are 150" and down - and most are 125" - and all of a sudden, a very high quality you buck shows up and grows a set of 175" antlers at age 4.5. I think those are freaks - the one out of 25 doe got with the one out of 25 buck - and a freak was born
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Because controlled breeding works well. This has been well established in both deer and livestock. Man has been selective breeding for many decades. As long as you can control the breeding process, you can have great success in selecting for just about any characteristic you want. Dogs are a great example of humans using a controlled breeding process and just how extreme you can go.
Free ranging deer are a different story all together. Take a listen to the podcast. The explanation of the controlled study is brought down to layman's terms.
I could go into genetics and epigenetics but I doubt I could do it justice. Humans still carry some genes from Neanderthal (evidence of cross breeding), but we don't express those genes. Just because a deer carries genetics to produce big antlers does not mean they will be expressed. When two brown eyed parents have a blue eyed baby, it does not mean it is time to go looking for the milkman. Epigenetics is the study of gene expression. We are just beginning to learn how the environment interacts with gene expression. We now know that changes in nutrition can affect how genes are expressed several generations down the road. Honey bee's can change their genetic expression dynamically in response to changes in the hive environment.
Letting the big ones walk and shooting the small ones is exactly what the study did.
And by the way, when it comes to free ranging deer and you see a monster suddenly appear in a sub-prime area, you certainly can blame it on the milkman. Even beyond some of the new buck excursion research, dispersal can move a small yearling buck up to 8 miles away his off-spring could easily move another 8 miles before establishing a home range. He could be a scraggly 6-point that doesn't ever score more than 100 and still carry provide genes that his offspring expresses as a 170 class buck or better. Genetics are simply too fluid in free ranging deer for culling to work.
I can go on, but you will learn much more from the podcast than from me.
Thanks,
Jack
If genetics are too fluid in a free ranging herd for culling to work - then shooting your inferior bucks shouldnt hurt - correct?
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Correct! In your context, it won't hurt at all. The negative consequences come in when you are culling for genetics. Since bucks only carry 50% of the genetics, in order for culling for genetics to have any chance in free ranging deer, one would need a very large area and would need to decimate the buck population creating a very unbalanced sex ratio. The podcast goes into the unintended consequences that can result from culling smaller antlered bucks in this extreme context. You can listen to it for details, but in your situation where you are shooting bucks you consider inferior, especially if you are not aged biased (killing a high percentage of young bucks because they have small or misconfigured antlers), should have no negative consequences. It should have no impact on the genetics of the herd.
My comments regarding how the myth of culling can be detrimental is directed at folks using the culling excuse to shoot small antlered (young) bucks. If selective culling can't change the underlying genetics for the good, it also can't change the genetics for the bad. It is when many folk in the area shoot young bucks under the guise of genetic culling that what they actually do is impact the age structure, harvesting many more young bucks than mature bucks.
I also don't have any issues with folks shooting young bucks in general. If folks want to take a young buck for whatever reason it is their choice and they should have it. I don't look down on that at all. However folks who want to have larger antlered bucks to hunt and think they are helping themselves by culling small antlered bucks (= generally younger), are actually hurting their cause. I know you have been doing this for many years and have a good handle on your property. I'm writing these responses keeping in mind that many novices are reading these posts. Many experienced deer hunters, like you, can make a pretty good ballpark estimate of the age class of a deer on your land based on history, camera photos, antlers, and other body characteristics. The average hunter can't. The average hunter can't easily differentiate between an small antlered mature buck and a larger antlered young buck. So, in the general context, small antlers often equates to a younger harvest bias.
Thanks,
Jack
To be honest, I know of know no one anymore who believes shooting the “inferior” bucks is going to improve the overall quality of the herd. And I live around some backwoods folks. I do know a lot of folks that select inferior bucks to cull from the herd to reduce deer density - like we do - purely as a selection criteria - with the attitude it wont hurt anything. I dont know folks anymore who think a spike will always be a spike. I dont know folks anymore who think a doe is a sacred animal not to be killed. I do know some who almost look at does as if they are rats. I have seen a lot of changes in attitude among deer hunters over the fifty years I have been hunting deer. I have changed my viewpoint a few times, also.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
That is a great attitude. If we don't change our minds as new data emerges, we end up stuck in myths. I tend to agree, attitudes are largely changing but the process is slow. There are still some who are have difficulty with this subject. I think it is largely because the concept of culling seems so intuitive.
Thanks,
Jack
Dr. Harry Jacobson, formerly the head of research at Ms. State, is probably the foremost expert in the world on whitetail genetics. At one time he had a buck named Charlie [ I think ] that at the time was sire to more boone and crocket bucks than any known buck in the world. The deer was legendary. Curiously it was never any larger than a 150 class 8 pt.
He once acquired a very mediocre mature buck to his research facility that was a very ordinary 8 pt as well though fully mature. The following year after being fed a high protein diet the buck exploded to well over 200".
And that is an important practical lesson for all of us as mangers . In almost all circumstances in any part of the country the most effective and important thing we can do is to enhance the nutritional plane and let bucks mature. I contend that essentially everywhere can see benefits by increasing high quality nutrition. Improving nutrition can only be compromised by killing immature bucks.
Practically , there are very few reasons to remove any buck other than you want to. And thats ok just recognize it for what it is. Overpopulation...remove more does. Ratio screwed up....probably other problems as well but no harm in leaving bucks. Quality not where you want it...enhance nutrition and find a way to help bucks mature.
If you are interested in growing trophies and are in a position where that is even a practical opportunity yet you still want to shoot bucks every year, then remove the lesser quality bucks from the 4 yr old plus categories and swing for the fence with the best bucks till they reach whatever standard you are seeking.But recognize that in a trophy program it takes a lot of bucks reaching the fully mature age class for a very few of them to be extraordinary and any " inferior " buck removed may have been compromised because of nutrition, previous injury, illness, parasites, negative social stress [from other bully bucks, over crowding, dramatic change in the environment etc ], too run down from previous rut to recover in time to fully grow out...and the list goes on. Simply said, if you want to harvest better bucks focus on nutrition and let all the bucks mature and only shoot the ones that ring your bell.
He once acquired a very mediocre mature buck to his research facility that was a very ordinary 8 pt as well though fully mature. The following year after being fed a high protein diet the buck exploded to well over 200".
And that is an important practical lesson for all of us as mangers . In almost all circumstances in any part of the country the most effective and important thing we can do is to enhance the nutritional plane and let bucks mature. I contend that essentially everywhere can see benefits by increasing high quality nutrition. Improving nutrition can only be compromised by killing immature bucks.
Practically , there are very few reasons to remove any buck other than you want to. And thats ok just recognize it for what it is. Overpopulation...remove more does. Ratio screwed up....probably other problems as well but no harm in leaving bucks. Quality not where you want it...enhance nutrition and find a way to help bucks mature.
If you are interested in growing trophies and are in a position where that is even a practical opportunity yet you still want to shoot bucks every year, then remove the lesser quality bucks from the 4 yr old plus categories and swing for the fence with the best bucks till they reach whatever standard you are seeking.But recognize that in a trophy program it takes a lot of bucks reaching the fully mature age class for a very few of them to be extraordinary and any " inferior " buck removed may have been compromised because of nutrition, previous injury, illness, parasites, negative social stress [from other bully bucks, over crowding, dramatic change in the environment etc ], too run down from previous rut to recover in time to fully grow out...and the list goes on. Simply said, if you want to harvest better bucks focus on nutrition and let all the bucks mature and only shoot the ones that ring your bell.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
Personally I want every buck on our property I can get. "inferior or trophy" makes no difference to me. I hope to Kill the "trophies" and also hope that the "inferiors" get shot by someone else. I will not shoot a small racked or shitty racked buck no matter what the date is. Now if I have history with the deer and have multiple years of photos of him that is an entirely different story. Then to ME that deer is a trophy.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Yes, it is interesting how most define a trophy by antler size. I get more satisfaction shooting a more mature deer with a smaller rack than a larger racked less mature deer. I guess I should be mounting jawbones instead of antlers. It is an accomplishment to get within bow range of any mature buck defeating his senses. However, the biggest trophies for me are the smiles on a kids face standing over his/her first deer of any sex or size!
Thanks,
Jack
Thanks,
Jack
In an area where your neighbors kill 2/3’s of your target bucks - it makes it really difficult to convince yourself to feed protein. And as far as shooting only your quality, target bucks and not shooting any lesser age or quality bucks - every area has a carrying capacity. If you are already at balanced herd ratios between bucks and does - just shooting does or mostly does may well result in an unbalanced herd. We did that and saw it with our own eyes. It ended up being a disaster and took six years to recover from. We have learned from our mistake and try to harvest similar numbers of bucks and does as our surveys indicate. We have not previously enjoyed the success with our population numbers as we have lately - and I dont know how long we can maintain. I would say I am seeing the best herd success with the things I can control - that I have ever achieved. It wasnt easy to get here and i dont expect it will be easy to stay here.
I agree. We define a trophy more now based on age as opposed to antlers. Our bucks generally peak at 4/5 yr old. If you dont kill them by 5.5 - then their antlers will probably be smaller next year. Their are never enough quality antlered deer to go around with the folks hunting my place and my neighbors - so we identify mature deer - 4.5 and older - that have smaller antlers. I killed one of those this year - a 5.5 that scored around 110”. I get my excitement from seeing my wife, one of my kids - or my grandkids killing these deer. I spend most of my time hunting public.
Turtlesprings
5 year old buck +
Protein pellets don't grow 200" racks on their own. The pen deer have been isolated from pests and predators. The stress has been minimized while providing everything that buck needs to express the potential. Just protein won't do it for free ranging deer.
j-bird
Moderator
You mention "cull" and I think LIVESTOCK. You cull animals based on their performance based on data and they are captive with limited resources to where you are trying to "raise the bar" so to speak. 99% of deer properties are in no way shape or form even close to that! Do some deer under perform for one reason or another....yes. However not every deer is destined to be 170 inches. No more than every person is destined to be 7 feet tall!
You mention culling deer on my place....your gonna get pushed out of a tree stand! I'm culling deer hunters....I'm looking for those that can fly!!!!
You mention culling deer on my place....your gonna get pushed out of a tree stand! I'm culling deer hunters....I'm looking for those that can fly!!!!
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
You might want to post this on the "Protein Supplements" thread. If you read the research, while culling does not work on free ranging deer, protein supplements can. The situations where they have been proven are limited, but we have to defer to what the data tells us. Check out that thread for details: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/protein-supplementation-article.11166/
Thanks,
Jack
Their is a difference between culling based on deer quality in an effort to improve genetics - and culling to reduce deer density - area on deer quality. The last is pretty much one and the same as hunting. The state g&f agencies use hunters to reduce the deer populations to a manageable density.
Prior to season, we develop a list of “shooter” deer. That list will generally include a couple quality bucks based on antlers and two or three deer that are mature and their antlers are sub par and going no where. We shoot these lower quality mature bucks not to improve genetics - but to maintain deer density and buck:doe ratios. I have seen management plans refer to these bucks as “cull” or “management” bucks. They used to always call them cull bucks until the management advocates became so prevalent and now refer them to a less harsh term - “management”. Similar when the term “harvest” replaced the word “kill”.
Prior to season, we develop a list of “shooter” deer. That list will generally include a couple quality bucks based on antlers and two or three deer that are mature and their antlers are sub par and going no where. We shoot these lower quality mature bucks not to improve genetics - but to maintain deer density and buck:doe ratios. I have seen management plans refer to these bucks as “cull” or “management” bucks. They used to always call them cull bucks until the management advocates became so prevalent and now refer them to a less harsh term - “management”. Similar when the term “harvest” replaced the word “kill”.
4wanderingeyes
5 year old buck +
Around me, everyone culls the dumber bucks that walk out in daylight. The smart ones that hide and dont move during the day, get to live another day. Seems to work pretty good, average buck age is 1.5. or younger.