Another "Creating a Food Plot" thread:

Wildthing - Just a thought on your smallish racks. ( Although around the mountains I hunt 120" to 130" buck is a trophy ! ) I tried putting mineral licks out a few years back in the mountains where I hunt. No ag. around. Racks there were 60" to 80" on avg. After 2 years of mineral licks, I shot a couple bucks in the 120"-125" category. No ag. - no logging done. The licks got used heavily, so I assume the bigger racks were a product of the licks.

Maybe mineral licks would be of some help there ?? Along with your plots, mineral licks might give a boost to building bone. FWIW.\

If the neighbor's shooting is driving deer onto your place, that sounds like a good situation. Big, old, gnarly bucks would likely be the first to get away from shooting. Put some right in your lap ?? !!
 
I have use mineral licks off and on for many years BnB. I've used both commercially available minerals as well as a "roll your own" recipe I got from a veterinarian friend of mine. The deer definitely like them, but truthfully, I'm not sure it has ever made any difference in antler growth here, and from what I understand it has never been scientifically proven that mineral licks promote antler growth so I guess school is still out on that issue.

I had a similar "conversation" with Da U.P. 'eh' last night. His camp is not far from mine and he has the same experience with his top end bucks only going into the 120'. We aren't sure if it is something lacking in the soils, the lack of oak trees in our habitat, the tough winters or maybe even a genetic thing. It is interesting because the next county east of us (Delta County) has no trouble growing big antlers.

One thing I have taken notice of here is that 10 point antlers are very few and far between. I have never killed a 10 point on our Michigan property. All of our top end bucks have been 8 points with an occasional 9 point in the mix. These are fairly large bodied deer - as my heaviest Michigan buck dressed out at 200# even. We even had a big buck a few years ago with only a 6 point rack (no brow tines) as a 4 year old.

We have been managing under QDM guidelines since we bought the first two 40's back in 1994. We have killed very few yearlings and overall we have killed far more 3 and 4 year olds than yearlings and 2 year olds combined - they just don't grow very large antlers.

Here is a pic of the only 5 1/2 year old we have ever killed - my wife shot him during black powder season. He has an 8 point rack with very short tines. We have a photo of him from the year before when he was a 4 year old and his rack was virtually the same size then:

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4 year old 6 point:

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Our top end bucks. All 8's and one 9 except for the one 10 point I killed in Saskatchewan:

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These are our more average bucks:

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A sampling of the minerals we have used:

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Wildthing - Maybe it's genetics. If your soil pH is good and you have all those food plots - plus you've tried mineral licks - I don't know what else it could be. You mentioned your lack of oaks. We have miles of oaks and that never made any difference in rack size here. What made a difference at our camp is regular liming, and planting food plots & adding recommended fertilizers. We've had bigger racks since doing those things.

The area I told you about using mineral licks was not at my camp, but in another large area of solid forest that I have permission to hunt. There's no ag. for miles, no food plots, no liming - just forest. Racks there had been spindly for years. A buck of 80" was noteworthy. After putting down mineral licks for 2 years, I started seeing bucks with much larger racks. I ended up killing a couple of them in 3 years, and I only put the minerals down from January to June each year. It seemed to be the difference - all other factors were unchanged.

If you've already tried licks, and you sure have enough food sources, maybe it's in the genes.
 
Yep - My best guess too.
 
There’s a lot said recently about the number and age class of deer and the stresses associated with them. What is the makeup of your bachelor groups and how is your fawn recruitment? I’ve read it both ways.... that thinning out some younger bucks if say you have a lot of spikes and forks compared to mature bucks can make room for bucks from other properties to move in. I’ve also read that shooting your yearling does as compared to mature does can do the same. While I do believe in genetics I think that nutrition and maximum diversity in that nutrition is what it takes. It’s incredible even here in N.J. that such a small state can have completely different deer and quality of deer. South puts out some unbelievable deer every year. Central also has incredible animals but totally different racks. And north has its own oddball characteristics also where the deer look like cage fighters super smart and they play the terrain to max advantage. Less giants (for this area) come outta the North but when they do you have really accomplished something
 
I won't digress from your observations about different characteristics between deer from different areas of N.J. Liveintrees, but I'm not sure I concur with your observations about "thinning out some younger bucks..." or even harvesting yearling does. Of course it depends upon what studies you have researched and agree with I guess, but you won't see us thinning out young bucks to make room for more mature bucks.

Frankly, I've never noted that young bucks pose much of a risk for older bucks - in fact the younger bucks - at least the smarter ones, seem to stay out of the way of older bucks. I honestly don't believe I have ever seen a study where this was recommended. At any rate, we have been practicing "Let em go so they can grow" since day 1 on our property. Also, our Deer Management Unit is under mandatory Antler Point Restrictions where bucks must have a minimum of 3 points on a side to be legal and at least 4 points on a side for the second buck tag. This does lead to the phenomena of "High Grading" where your better (5, 6, 7 and 8 point) yearlings are subject to harvest but it does protect spikes and forks at least.

I can't say I have ever read anything regarding the harvest of young does either. In fact I had always understood that your deer herd was much healthier if the average age of the does you harvested was 3 /12 years old and younger. Of course there are advantages of having older does in your herd as well. Let's face it, an older doe which can get twin fawns to the "recruitment" age is probably a better mother than say a yearling doe. Old does also know the ropes about migration routes, prime bedding areas, avoiding predators, etc. However, there has also been some recent research into doe harvests which increase the percentage of buck fawns and maybe even reduce the prevalence of disease.

If you have 48 minutes to spare some time, take a look at this 48 minute video of a presentation made by Wayne Sitton who manages the Turtle Lake Club in northern lower Michigan (and other large hunt club properties as well). Mr Sitton actually hired James Kroll (AKA "Dr Deer") to manage TLC as well.

https://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/comprehensive-deer-study-a-game-changer.607171/

This presentation was recently posted on the Michigan Sportsman Forums and generated a great deal of controversial views for sure, but I found it very interesting.

Turtle Lake Club is a large private hunt club encompassing some 40 square miles. They harvest tons of deer every year and every year in February they have a doe harvest and perform necropsies on all of them to gather biological data. They invite biologists from the Michigan DNR every year to attend these necropsies and have been doing so for many years so they have compiled an enormous amount of data concerning average age of fetuses, average size of fetuses, exact sex ratios of the fetuses, and the exact age of the mother, among other things.

What was interesting to note was that younger does (yearlings and 2 year olds) have a much higher percentage of buck fawns and does 3 1/2 years old and older have a higher percentage of doe fawns. Of course, we all know about yearling buck dispersal and the fact that an orphaned yearling buck has a much higher likelihood of staying in the home range where he was born vs dispersing some distance to a new home range, but the bottom line in the TLC research is that you can use this information as a management tool in managing the deer on any given property (given the fact that you have enough acreage to manage).

For example, if you have a high deer density and want to reduce it, you may want to harvest older does to reduce the number of doe fawns being recruited into the herd. This strategy would also increase the number of buck fawn recruitment.

Getting back to antler growth as a regional influence, there really isn't much question that certain areas of the country (or individual states) have the ability to grow better antlers than others. If you happen to own your property and hunt in those areas you will likely see (and harvest) much better deer than other areas. If your property isn't in one of those mega buck areas about the best you can do is provide your deer with better nutrition (habitat improvement) and age (trigger control). I don't subscribe to any type of efforts to "cull" certain deer (especially young bucks) to attempt to influence genetic makeup on a free ranging deer herd. I have seen sufficient studies to refute proponents of that theory.

I guess we just happen to be in one of those parts of the state where we just have to do what we can to provide our deer with the best groceries that we can and give them a little time to maybe grow into the best that they can be given the potential they do have.
 
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If I still had he articles I would link them. They were from 3ish years ago. It suggested taking out the younger animals to keep the age structure in the herd geared towards mature animals. I’m not sure I agree with it but it had some following to it. I do know that what I do on that lease Is when we have a buck who is 3 1/2 and he has a scrub forkhorn or short tine rack we try and take them out either early season or during the firearms season. The deer in that area have great potential but in years when the young bucks seem to be everywhere the mature deer are nowhere to be found. In years where we have less young bucks on the property our mature buck encounters skyrocket. I’m going to watch the video tonight. Hopefully I make it that long as I put in a day of Hinge cutting in 14” of snow. I’m shot!
 
I agree with everyone else... Nice work and thanks for sharing.
 
That is some beautiful work. Absolutely gorgeous. Joke: I have been growing rocks too.
 
Great thread! Enjoyed the photos with the steps to how you got to your end goal. Thanks for showing how it all turned out.
 
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