Lime discussion

[pilotpip]

I'm going into year 3 of working on our property in the Ozarks. When we bought, the first thing I did was borrow a soil probe from the local University of Missouri Extension and get some samples. The samples gave me a pH of 4.2 (yikes). First year we applied 500lbs of pelletized lime to the top, then broadcast seed into the field after spraying fly with a wand. I was actually pleased with the results where we had growth and would have probably seen better growth if I had gotten a more even kill. I had golf ball sized turnips which were rooted up all winter.

Second year, pH is 5.0. Same 500lbs of lime spread but this time I have a 30 gallon boom sprayer trailer, and get a much more even kill. I also now have a tarter plow/cultipacker. Plow does great but my father in law's 500cc atv isn't up to the task on a 95 degree day, so I only get one pass to break up the soil. The plot had more green, and the deer hammered it until acorns started dropping, and again after the freeze but I got no turnip bulbs. I think that was because I spread my brassica strips too heavily and they didn't have enough room.

This year, I plan on getting a soil sample this week or next. I also have a bigger UTV that should handle the plow better, but I'm also thinking about renting a small ag lime spreader our local soil conservation district has because I can get 50lb bags of ag lime at menards, and transport them back to the field. Pending the soil sample results, my plan is to apply more lime sometime early this spring, plow it in, and then broadcast an annual clover and maybe some winter peas. Was also thinking of a couple other items that the turkeys would use too.

My long term goal is to get away from plowing. I'd like to buy or fab a crimper and go to the "buffalo method" or a modified throw and mow but I'd also like to get the soil amended to where I'm not carting lime back there every year and whatever I plant has soil that works for it.

What do you think? Am I on the right path here? I'd like to hear your opinions.

 

[FarmerDan]

The path you are on might be the right one - for you given the paths available. In my humble opinion I don't think your path will take you where you want to go. There are some key numbers you don't share. I hear you say 500 lbs of lime, but don't find the area (acres) you are covering. It doesn't sound like enough lime given you are starting at 4.2.
But if you are planting 10,000 square feet or an acre makes a difference!

Humbly, I question your soil sample results only because I don't know your method. Samples are not created equal. It's good that you borrowed a sampling tube. Again, back to how big an area your treating. You might need 50 cores or only 10 to have a fair representative sample of the soil profile. And then there's sample depth. Did you go deep - more than six inches? Or did you stay in the top 3 or 4 inches? The results can vary wildly from the top inch to the 12th inch.

Based on what you've provided so far, I'd say, you might be on the right path, but would suggest you look for another.

The one thing I would have you consider stopping is the plowing for many reasons, but lime seems to be the subject. I'm sure there will be much debate, but the idea of liming and then plowing to mix the lime in the soil is a bad idea. The effects of lime applications are not static. This mixing of lime and soil speeds all things. Yes, your soil pH in the plow layer might go up quickly, but it will probably go down just as fast. There are reasons, but you'll need to find a more thorough source to read.

 

[SD51555]

I'm going into year 3 of working on our property in the Ozarks. When we bought, the first thing I did was borrow a soil probe from the local University of Missouri Extension and get some samples. The samples gave me a pH of 4.2 (yikes). First year we applied 500lbs of pelletized lime to the top, then broadcast seed into the field after spraying fly with a wand. I was actually pleased with the results where we had growth and would have probably seen better growth if I had gotten a more even kill. I had golf ball sized turnips which were rooted up all winter.

Second year, pH is 5.0. Same 500lbs of lime spread but this time I have a 30 gallon boom sprayer trailer, and get a much more even kill. I also now have a tarter plow/cultipacker. Plow does great but my father in law's 500cc atv isn't up to the task on a 95 degree day, so I only get one pass to break up the soil. The plot had more green, and the deer hammered it until acorns started dropping, and again after the freeze but I got no turnip bulbs. I think that was because I spread my brassica strips too heavily and they didn't have enough room.

This year, I plan on getting a soil sample this week or next. I also have a bigger UTV that should handle the plow better, but I'm also thinking about renting a small ag lime spreader our local soil conservation district has because I can get 50lb bags of ag lime at menards, and transport them back to the field. Pending the soil sample results, my plan is to apply more lime sometime early this spring, plow it in, and then broadcast an annual clover and maybe some winter peas. Was also thinking of a couple other items that the turkeys would use too.

My long term goal is to get away from plowing. I'd like to buy or fab a crimper and go to the "buffalo method" or a modified throw and mow but I'd also like to get the soil amended to where I'm not carting lime back there every year and whatever I plant has soil that works for it.

What do you think? Am I on the right path here? I'd like to hear your opinions.

You farming gravel type soil there?

 

[pilotpip]

It's just over 1 acre. I took 15 cores throughout and mixed them up for both samples. I know 500lbs isn't a lot of pelletized lime. However with the terrain it would be all but impossible to get bulk ag lime back there I've been trying to plant stuff that is tolerant of acidic soils.

As for the soil, it's heavy clay with some rocks in it. Typical of the land by Lake of the Ozarks.

As far as the plowing, It's something of a battle with my father in law. He's of that old "light, fluffy seed bed" mentality, and he wants to sit over a lush, green plot like they show on TV. Me, I'm all for throw and mow, and rigging up a crimper. I'd like to get away from using any chemicals eventually. The right weeds are good. Deer eat them too. After frost seeding some clover, he's starting to realize I'm trying to do my homework on this and he's starting to come around.

I'm also getting away from spending all my focus on less than 2% of the property, and making some improvements in the timber. Same there, the little I did last year had some very positive effects and we had a good season.

Again, I appreciate the input and if you need more details I'm happy to provide. I'm just a city boy trying to have a little fun and learn.

 

[FarmerDan]

It's just over 1 acre. I took 15 cores throughout and mixed them up for both samples. I know 500lbs isn't a lot of pelletized lime. However with the terrain it would be all but impossible to get bulk ag lime back there I've been trying to plant stuff that is tolerant of acidic soils.

As for the soil, it's heavy clay with some rocks in it. Typical of the land by Lake of the Ozarks.

As far as the plowing, It's something of a battle with my father in law. He's of that old "light, fluffy seed bed" mentality, and he wants to sit over a lush, green plot like they show on TV. Me, I'm all for throw and mow, and rigging up a crimper. I'd like to get away from using any chemicals eventually. The right weeds are good. Deer eat them too. After frost seeding some clover, he's starting to realize I'm trying to do my homework on this and he's starting to come around.

I'm also getting away from spending all my focus on less than 2% of the property, and making some improvements in the timber. Same there, the little I did last year had some very positive effects and we had a good season.

Again, I appreciate the input and if you need more details I'm happy to provide. I'm just a city boy trying to have a little fun and learn.

Given all that, it sounds like you are on the right path - maybe your only path! Fun is essential! Complying with the father-in-laws values is priceless! My only suggestion is to broadcast a lot of lime and leave it on the surface. It will significantly change the pH in the top two inches and that's where most of you planting's roots are found. The same amount of lime applied and plowed-in dilutes the effort.
Good luck and keep it fun!

 

[pilotpip]

Sounds good. Thanks for the input!

 

[yoderjac]

It's just over 1 acre. I took 15 cores throughout and mixed them up for both samples. I know 500lbs isn't a lot of pelletized lime. However with the terrain it would be all but impossible to get bulk ag lime back there I've been trying to plant stuff that is tolerant of acidic soils.

As for the soil, it's heavy clay with some rocks in it. Typical of the land by Lake of the Ozarks.

As far as the plowing, It's something of a battle with my father in law. He's of that old "light, fluffy seed bed" mentality, and he wants to sit over a lush, green plot like they show on TV. Me, I'm all for throw and mow, and rigging up a crimper. I'd like to get away from using any chemicals eventually. The right weeds are good. Deer eat them too. After frost seeding some clover, he's starting to realize I'm trying to do my homework on this and he's starting to come around.

I'm also getting away from spending all my focus on less than 2% of the property, and making some improvements in the timber. Same there, the little I did last year had some very positive effects and we had a good season.

Again, I appreciate the input and if you need more details I'm happy to provide. I'm just a city boy trying to have a little fun and learn.

My soil pH starts in the 4's before amendments. I also have heavy clay in VA. Initial amendment requires 4 tons of lime per acre. VT recommends that I only apply 3 tons/acre at once and then apply the rest about 6 months out. Ag lime is much less expensive the pellet lime but you need an ag lime spreader. I rent a lime buggy from the local coop. I tow it about 10 miles or so with my pickup to get back to the farm and use the tractor to apply the lime.

With heavy clay soil, lime an nutrients move through it slowly, so be patient. Minimize tillage. Just enough to break any crusting of the clay. The good news is that it is quite a few years before I need maintenance lime. I don't add it until I need about 1 ton/ac.

Best of luck!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[pilotpip]

The soil conservation district I'm in has an ATV towable ag lime spreader, and I can get 50lb bags of it at my local Menards for about $1/bag less than a bag of pell lime. I may try to get ahold of that for a weekend.

Thanks!

 

[FarmerDan]

The soil conservation district I'm in has an ATV towable ag lime spreader, and I can get 50lb bags of it at my local Menards for about $1/bag less than a bag of pell lime. I may try to get ahold of that for a weekend.

Thanks!

Spreading ag lime is no joy.....

 

[ruskbucks]

The soil conservation district I'm in has an ATV towable ag lime spreader, and I can get 50lb bags of it at my local Menards for about $1/bag less than a bag of pell lime. I may try to get ahold of that for a weekend.

Thanks!

At only $1 a bag in savings I would go with the pelitized. I put all my pelitized down with a tow behind spreader and a ATV. It holds 200# and I could spread 1000lbs in a couple hours. I learned the hard way trying to use ag lime. Wasted a lot of time and money that could of been used on something more productive.

 

[yoderjac]

At only $1 a bag in savings I would go with the pelitized. I put all my pelitized down with a tow behind spreader and a ATV. It holds 200# and I could spread 1000lbs in a couple hours. I learned the hard way trying to use ag lime. Wasted a lot of time and money that could of been used on something more productive.

The big break on ag lime is when you are buying at bulk. If you plan to go slow and spread some each year, choose crops like Winter Rye that perform well in lower pH soils.

 

[pilotpip]

Spreading ag lime is no joy.....

At only $1 a bag in savings I would go with the pelitized. I put all my pelitized down with a tow behind spreader and a ATV. It holds 200# and I could spread 1000lbs in a couple hours. I learned the hard way trying to use ag lime. Wasted a lot of time and money that could of been used on something more productive.

Good to know. I had a tow behind spreader that died pretty fast. We are going to give an electric hitch mounted one from DR a try this year. It only has a 100lb capacity but I liked the flow control handle on it.

The big break on ag lime is when you are buying at bulk. If you plan to go slow and spread some each year, choose crops like Winter Rye that perform well in lower pH soils.

What's funny is that cereal rye hasn't done well. They were killer up in Northern Missouri where I used to hunt but here the deer doesn't touch it. I've had good luck with oats, rape, and purple tops so far.

 

[ruskbucks]

The soil conservation district I'm in has an ATV towable ag lime spreader, and I can get 50lb bags of it at my local Menards for about $1/bag less than a bag of pell lime. I may try to get ahold of that for a weekend.

Thanks!

At only $1 a bag in savings I would go with the pelitized. I put all my pelitized down with a tow behind spreader and a ATV. It holds 200# and I could spread 1000lbs in a couple hours. I learned the hard way trying to use ag lime. Wasted a lot of time and money that could of been used on something more productive

Good to know. I had a tow behind spreader that died pretty fast. We are going to give an electric hitch mounted one from DR a try this year. It only has a 100lb capacity but I liked the flow control handle on it.

What's funny is that cereal rye hasn't done well. They were killer up in Northern Missouri where I used to hunt but here the deer doesn't touch it. I've had good luck with oats, rape, and purple tops so far.

Dr makes some nice equipment. I would think that would work great for everything. I use my spreader for lime, soybeans, fertilizer, peas and cereal grains. Have you ever put a cage in your rye plot. The first year I didn't think they were hitting it much. The next year I put a cage out and inside the cage it was about 16 inches taller than the rest of the field. I use a lot of rye now because it is one of the only plants that holds up to the browsing.

 

[yoderjac]

Good to know. I had a tow behind spreader that died pretty fast. We are going to give an electric hitch mounted one from DR a try this year. It only has a 100lb capacity but I liked the flow control handle on it.

What's funny is that cereal rye hasn't done well. They were killer up in Northern Missouri where I used to hunt but here the deer doesn't touch it. I've had good luck with oats, rape, and purple tops so far.

Exclusion cage?

 

[SD51555]

It's just over 1 acre. I took 15 cores throughout and mixed them up for both samples. I know 500lbs isn't a lot of pelletized lime. However with the terrain it would be all but impossible to get bulk ag lime back there I've been trying to plant stuff that is tolerant of acidic soils.

As for the soil, it's heavy clay with some rocks in it. Typical of the land by Lake of the Ozarks.

As far as the plowing, It's something of a battle with my father in law. He's of that old "light, fluffy seed bed" mentality, and he wants to sit over a lush, green plot like they show on TV. Me, I'm all for throw and mow, and rigging up a crimper. I'd like to get away from using any chemicals eventually. The right weeds are good. Deer eat them too. After frost seeding some clover, he's starting to realize I'm trying to do my homework on this and he's starting to come around.

I'm also getting away from spending all my focus on less than 2% of the property, and making some improvements in the timber. Same there, the little I did last year had some very positive effects and we had a good season.

Again, I appreciate the input and if you need more details I'm happy to provide. I'm just a city boy trying to have a little fun and learn.

Can you post a copy of your soil test results.

 

[pilotpip]

Here you go. In fact I'll give you the last two to show progress.

 

[PoorSand]

Just info here.... the neutralizing effects of lime application can take more than one year to reach end of curve.

 

[pilotpip]

Yes, that is another consideration. I'm heading out there tomorrow to take down stands and do a little saw work and plan on getting another sample to have analyzed.

One reason that I was thinking about trying to get ag lime was because it takes longer to break down, pelletized will give a faster result, but not last as long because the particles are finer if I understand this correctly.

 

[SD51555]

If you're going to keep applying lime for years, I would do a 50/50 mix of calcitic pell lime (menards) and dolomitic pell lime (tractor supply). Otherwise, you'll go off the deep end as far as your mineral balance goes. You could alternate each year, or do a mix each year. And throw in 300 lbs of gypsum (menards) each year as well. You're way low in sulfur.

Also keep in mind, every pound of nitrogen fertilizer you put on cancels a pound of lime effectiveness. If it's growing stuff well now, I wouldn't be too excited to make drastic changes. If you're trying to improve the soil though, be aware, no soil has ever improved when introduced to iron, glyphosate, and nitrogen pellets.

 

[pilotpip]

Exclusion cage?

It grows, the deer just don't seem to browse it much. I've had very good acorns the last two years which could play a part. There were days during bow season that it sounded like a rain shower because of the acorns falling and I know the deer will always go for those first. We killed a couple does out of the plot this year and during several sits I watched them walk right around the cereal rye and browse on the oats and brassicas.

Next question: What would you plant for a spring crop to help keep the weeds at bay, and give the deer and turkey something to feed on?