Just kidding with you. Keep up the good work.
Apples,apples and more apples
- Thread starter Chainsaw
- Start date
Gravel Road
5 year old buck +
My 6 apple trees from Ryan showed up today and they looked fantastic! Knock on wood, but they are about as protected as they can be. Concrete wire cages, chicken wire, aluminum screen, t-post and ground cloth should do it 
Going to try a bucket with small hole to even out the watering.
Thanks for sharing that grafting process. WOW!
Going to try a bucket with small hole to even out the watering.Thanks for sharing that grafting process. WOW!
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Gravel Road, your planting looks perfect. Your trees should be very happy. I too prefer to plant them out in full sunlight as you have there and the moats around them are a nice touch as well. Can you tell us more about the water pails, like how often you add water and how long do they drain for before being empty, what size holes and how many holes you put in the pails, and do you put the holes in the bottom of the pails or low on the sides?
I picked up my trees from Ryan while I was there and some were extra nice and some were smaller. Each year we can expect different size trees as there are so many factors that go into determining individual tree size. For example, last year we had drought conditions so my trees here in NY had tough growing conditions. I understand that it was very dry at Ryan's as well. He started watering his early in the dry spell but even so the dry spell no doubt impacted growth rates last year. Newer tree varieties may lean towards being smaller simply because smaller scions are often all that is available from previously untrimmed trees. Conversely scions from established varieties tend to produce larger scions which grafts nicely onto larger rootstocks. With that combo and all else being equal those trees will be larger than those grown using smaller scions or smaller rootstocks. Never the less even the smallest trees I saw at Ryan's were very acceptable.
Glad you enjoyed the grafting scene pictures. You will notice a lot of large pieces on the floor to be discarded. Most of that comes from the cutting the tops off the rootstock. It is about 18 inches to two feet tall and we trim them so the scion is grafted around five or six inches above the root. Additionally there is some extra long wood thrown on the floor to be discarded. Those are complete rootstocks that were not growing well enough to use. Ryan's logic for tossing them out is that some of them would likely grow into sub par trees if we used them. It is an unknown whether the tossed rootstocks were genetically deficient or just weren't getting their share of nutrients from the soil due to over crowding, poor drainage or uneven fertilizer spreading so rather than chance it, the weaker looking rootstocks are simply tossed out.
I picked up my trees from Ryan while I was there and some were extra nice and some were smaller. Each year we can expect different size trees as there are so many factors that go into determining individual tree size. For example, last year we had drought conditions so my trees here in NY had tough growing conditions. I understand that it was very dry at Ryan's as well. He started watering his early in the dry spell but even so the dry spell no doubt impacted growth rates last year. Newer tree varieties may lean towards being smaller simply because smaller scions are often all that is available from previously untrimmed trees. Conversely scions from established varieties tend to produce larger scions which grafts nicely onto larger rootstocks. With that combo and all else being equal those trees will be larger than those grown using smaller scions or smaller rootstocks. Never the less even the smallest trees I saw at Ryan's were very acceptable.
Glad you enjoyed the grafting scene pictures. You will notice a lot of large pieces on the floor to be discarded. Most of that comes from the cutting the tops off the rootstock. It is about 18 inches to two feet tall and we trim them so the scion is grafted around five or six inches above the root. Additionally there is some extra long wood thrown on the floor to be discarded. Those are complete rootstocks that were not growing well enough to use. Ryan's logic for tossing them out is that some of them would likely grow into sub par trees if we used them. It is an unknown whether the tossed rootstocks were genetically deficient or just weren't getting their share of nutrients from the soil due to over crowding, poor drainage or uneven fertilizer spreading so rather than chance it, the weaker looking rootstocks are simply tossed out.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
Nice work Gravel Road!! Watch how much those trees grow this year. Good things ahead for you.
A thought about watering buckets - I used them too. I drilled 2) 1/16" holes in the bottom on opposite side of the bucket to spread out the drip a bit more. I also put a rock in the bottom so when empty, they didn't blow around in the cages in high winds and "beat up" the trees. FWIW.
A thought about watering buckets - I used them too. I drilled 2) 1/16" holes in the bottom on opposite side of the bucket to spread out the drip a bit more. I also put a rock in the bottom so when empty, they didn't blow around in the cages in high winds and "beat up" the trees. FWIW.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
Chainsaw -
What kind of cutting tool are you talking about?? Is it one of those that makes cuts that look like a piece of a jigsaw puzzle?? (tongue-in-groove type of cuts).
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Bowsnbucks, Thanks for the info on your watering bucket. The cutting tool I am using is a grafting block made by Scionon.
This link shows them doing each graft completely.
And this one shows them doing a bunch of cutting on larger wood. As you know, cutting the larger wood takes a bit of strength and thus increases the potential for a slip and a bad unintended cut on the thumb when using a knife. So far grafting with the Scionon grafting block seems safer to me than grafting with a knife.
This video shows him just cutting one after another to put together later probably by a helper.
For me it is no where near as easy or as fast to use as the operator in the video makes it look. It must take a lot of long days to get that efficient at it. In fact using a simple safety knife Ryan was easily twice as as productive as I was and I was using the cutting tool. Still it works for me even as slow at it as I am. The price on the Grafting block was excessive but I figured with just one year of grafting with it for myself and members of our little co-op it would justify the cost presuming it was as safe as it appears to be. And after that it would possibly last us many years. This tool is made in New Zealand. This gets you to their website.
Scionon
www.scionon.com
chummer
5 year old buck +
I use a water bucket system. I have a few buckets with one hole in the side at the bottom. I have a 30 gallon barrel I put in the bucket of the tractor. I fill up at the pond and drive to the trees. Fill the buckets with water and by the time I go to the pond and back the buckets are empty and I move them to the next set of trees.
Gravel Road
5 year old buck +
Thanks for posting those grafting videos. Pretty slick process when there's a few thousand to graft!
I use a small trailer with a 55 gallon plastic drum for water. I always question how much water each tree is getting since it is just gravity flow that slows as the level goes down. One small hole in the bottom, maybe 3/16 or so and it'll take 30 minutes or so to empty. Sometimes too small of a hole gets clogged with debris or bugs. Initially, trees are always watered once a week all summer and into the fall. Year 2, they are on their own.
Today I planted 25 red osier dogwood , 25 nannyberry vibernum and maybe 50 elderberry cuttings. Wish I had the time and money to put up some big cages, but tried some plastic snow fence from another project. Maybe it'll keep the deer off until they get a chance to root. Yes, it's a wet area in the spring :)
I use a small trailer with a 55 gallon plastic drum for water. I always question how much water each tree is getting since it is just gravity flow that slows as the level goes down. One small hole in the bottom, maybe 3/16 or so and it'll take 30 minutes or so to empty. Sometimes too small of a hole gets clogged with debris or bugs. Initially, trees are always watered once a week all summer and into the fall. Year 2, they are on their own.
Today I planted 25 red osier dogwood , 25 nannyberry vibernum and maybe 50 elderberry cuttings. Wish I had the time and money to put up some big cages, but tried some plastic snow fence from another project. Maybe it'll keep the deer off until they get a chance to root. Yes, it's a wet area in the spring :)
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Gravel Road, Over the last few years red dogwood has taken hold here naturally on its own in a few spots. It looks like a really great companion plant to apple tree groves. It gets browsed regularly especially in late February and March here yet it comes back and it grows well in the marginal wet areas. I'm thinking of trying caging just a few hoping letting them get to maturity might be a good way to help get them spread throughout the various apple groves throughout the property.
Elderberry grows here and I think Nanny berry as well but they haven't been able to multiply themselves here like the red dogwood has. If it weren't for the deer browsing the red dogwood so heavily it would take over much of our lower ground areas.
Am looking forward to hearing how your plantings of the cuttings work out and their possible applicable use as a secondary plant in apple grove areas.
Elderberry grows here and I think Nanny berry as well but they haven't been able to multiply themselves here like the red dogwood has. If it weren't for the deer browsing the red dogwood so heavily it would take over much of our lower ground areas.
Am looking forward to hearing how your plantings of the cuttings work out and their possible applicable use as a secondary plant in apple grove areas.
sandbur
5 year old buck +
I see red osier growing in my deer cages. It gets heavily browsed outside of the cages since this is a wintering area.
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chummer
5 year old buck +
Dave, that swamp area behind my orchard plot was cut probably 3 years ago and has really popped with red dogwood and elderberry. It has really added a supplemental browse buffet to my food offerings. Best news is I only cut 50-75 yards up the swamp hole, I probably can go another 100-150 yards. The area is only 30 yards across so it serves no other purpose.
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
It is a definite winner for us in colder areas at least. Glad to hear it is feeding deer on your extra cold tundra land as well.
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
That's great Jeremy. Is there enough sun there to add an apple tree mound of dirt every twenty-five feet or so also?
BuckSnort
5 year old buck +
Plans changed for the weekend so I did my best to adapt & overcome. Took the back seat out of the minivan and loaded it up with apple trees for transplanting.
Feels good to get the trees in the ground though. Had just enough time before dark to take a quick walk which turned out pretty good as well.
Feels good to get the trees in the ground though. Had just enough time before dark to take a quick walk which turned out pretty good as well.
chummer
5 year old buck +
There are some cool humps in there. I have a handful of white swamp oaks I planted that are now 12’ on average. There are a couple big hawthornes on a couple of the humps. I was planning another plot at the other end for some apples but that is on hold as I work on the one behind the pines. I have a lot of chainsaw work to do this year.
H20fwler
5 year old buck +
I know that I have looked at parts of this thread over the last year from time to time. This weekend I started from the beginning and read posts when I could going through the whole thread same as River X did.
Thank you Chainsaw! LOTS of great info in here I've learned a lot. And I found a few more varieties of crabs I want to put out in our orchards, don't know why but I had never really looked the Blue Hill stuff over...WOW what great info and trees specially for no maintenance wildlife orchards. If I can get on the order list that one is going to cost me some $$$ I've got big eyes reading through Ryan’s stuff.
Thank you Chainsaw! LOTS of great info in here I've learned a lot. And I found a few more varieties of crabs I want to put out in our orchards, don't know why but I had never really looked the Blue Hill stuff over...WOW what great info and trees specially for no maintenance wildlife orchards. If I can get on the order list that one is going to cost me some $$$ I've got big eyes reading through Ryan’s stuff.
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Nice find on the sheds and trees in the ground, it looks like you turned yesterday into a great day Bucksnort. Our ground water is barely below the surface and today's rain will just add to it. Trees to plant here are lying down in a kiddee swim pool with sticks under them to keep the above ground part of the tree out of any water coming from the thawing ice which is also in the pool. The pool is covered in tarps and cardboard. Tree planting will start in a couple of days during periodic breaks from grafting.
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Thank you H2Fowler for reading the whole thread and for your comments. I am very happy to have started this thread. It has worked out well with excellent sharing of ideas all around and has helped keep my and others enthusiasm for apple projects at a very high level. The fruit tree section of this forum has been an especially effective and accelerated learning tool for me as I pursue the objective of having the deer here live to older ages, travel during daylight hours on this property and have food available to them thru the tough period of January thru March.
What Blue Hill Wildlife Nursey, Turkey Creek and Northern Whitetail Crabs (and whoever else focused on creating great wildlife trees) are doing focusing on finding and growing special trees for wildlife will and is already changing how many of us help feed the deer on our properties using wildlife trees. I refer to the special trees as the top 1% of wild apple trees but actually they are more like the top half of 1% of wild apple trees here that qualify as special. Like everything though, nothing is absolute, meaning that the very best tree here which meets all criteria for being special for wildlife may or may not carry that status into every property it is tried on. I intend to continue to try most trees on my property that others have found to be special on their properties but I keep in mind that the trees that have already proven themselves to be special here are likely to continue that status when grafted onto the most appropriate rootstock. I don't mean to exclude orchard varieties as some of them have proven to be special for our needs; however I think that there are many more special wild apples out there to discover once more people begin to look at their trees on their hunting lands and general area and assess them based on their performance as they see them. Likely every hunter either has one great tree on their property or knows of one in their area.
sandbur
5 year old buck +
I would add that we should gather seed from disease free wild trees and grow it out. The fruit won’t be like the mother tree, but will have some of the genetics.
I have also planted seed from some favorite domestic apple crabs.
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