B118 has fruited - results reported

[Lois E Brenneman FNP]

A while back - maybe last fall, we were talking about what sort of fruit might B118 produce. I have some trees in pots - and also planted some in the orchard - sort of for the heck of it to see what kind of fruit it would produce. Well, turns out they are rather tasty albeit a bit tart. They taste almost exactly like Sweet Tarts so if you like Sweet Tarts you will like these apples. The flesh is sort of pinkish and the skin is solid red - bleeds a bit into the apple when you bite into it. No scab that I could see. These were about the size of a Kerr apple but since it was my potted trees which fruited, I really can't say much about the size. Potted trees produce small fruit. Anyway, I liked the flavor enough that I am putting more of them in the orchard (for me to eat). Another positive feature is the lovely deep pink blooms in spring. Considering that this tree is not taken seriously for anything other than as a rootstock, it is a surprisingly nice tree on many counts - good ornamental value and now with tasty fruit, to boot. One thing is for sure - it is a cheap enough tree for purposes of mast. Can't beat the price when purchased as root stock. Don't know how much the deer like tart fruit but since they always snarf up all my Dolgo crabapples - which are REALLY tart (too tart for my palate) I suspect they would be just fine with the B118 fruit. These apples can be eaten without any extra sugar which is not the case with Dolgo. As I noted above, this fruit is almost identical in taste to Sweet Tart candies. If you like them, you will like this fruit. It has enough sugar to balance the acidity. If you only like very sweet apples - ones without any significant acidity - then this fruit is not for you. Finally, B118 makes an inexpensive and edible pollinator.

 

[greyphase]

Thanks for passing on your experiences, Lois. Threads like this is what makes this site an invaluable resource for us "apple nuts". :D

 

[Rally1148]

A while back - maybe last fall, we were talking about what sort of fruit might B118 produce. I have some trees in pots - and also planted some in the orchard - sort of for the heck of it to see what kind of fruit it would produce. Well, turns out they are rather tasty albeit a bit tart. They taste almost exactly like Sweet Tarts so if you like Sweet Tarts you will like these apples. The flesh is sort of pinkish and the skin is solid red - bleeds a bit into the apple when you bite into it. No scab that I could see. These were about the size of a Kerr apple but since it was my potted trees which fruited, I really can't say much about the size. Potted trees produce small fruit. Anyway, I liked the flavor enough that I am putting more of them in the orchard (for me to eat). Another positive feature is the lovely deep pink blooms in spring. Considering that this tree is not taken seriously for anything other than as a rootstock, it is a surprisingly nice tree on many counts - good ornamental value and now with tasty fruit, to boot. One thing is for sure - it is a cheap enough tree for purposes of mast. Can't beat the price when purchased as root stock. Don't know how much the deer like tart fruit but since they always snarf up all my Dolgo crabapples - which are REALLY tart (too tart for my palate) I suspect they would be just fine with the B118 fruit. These apples can be eaten without any extra sugar which is not the case with Dolgo. As I noted above, this fruit is almost identical in taste to Sweet Tart candies. If you like them, you will like this fruit. It has enough sugar to balance the acidity. If you only like very sweet apples - ones without any significant acidity - then this fruit is not for you. Finally, B118 makes an inexpensive and edible pollinator.

Do you remember when they bloom? Early, mid, late?

 

[sandbur]

Thank you, Lois!

I have two B118's in the ground, as is.

Do you have any pictures as to fruit size and any information on drop time?

I think there are a variety of rootstocks that make great deer crabs. Seedling dolgos, B118's, and probably columbia if you can find it.

 

[Lois E Brenneman FNP]

Seedling dolgos are a bit "iffy" from the standpoint of deer. I put 10 of them in, again, just for the heck of it - to see what kind of fruit and variability would occur. First of all, forget this widely published notion that 'Dolgo breed true." They don't and neither to Kerrs - another widely propagated myth. The 10 are all extremely variable - some are even red-fleshed and some produce various shades of pink bloom - quite pretty. They are all on the smallish side with respect to fruit size vs the B118 which produces a relatively decent size fruit. Of course, the deer will absolutely eat all of my dolgo fruit but like you and me, they tend to go for the bigger stuff first. Deer eat everything but they have definite preferences and go for what we like first. They get more desperate then we ever do (hopefully) so they will eat everything eventually. I don't know as to when the B118 bloomed because I was away for most of the blooming season this year. Typically, crabs tend to have a long blooming season with strong pollen which is one of the reasons they make such good pollinators. One other thing about the B118 is that they are very, very drought resistant. I have more trees in in pots then I can properly manage and sometimes those pots get bone dry while I too busy to water them. Lost all of the potted Kerrs in that way and some of the Antonovskas from that sort of neglect but never lost a single B118 in pots - ever - from lack of watering. I am a big fan of this tree. BTW I was reading about it. One of its parents is a Moscow pear apple (not a pear) which is known for hardiness

 

[CrazyEd]

Any pictures of the fruit?

 

[Lois E Brenneman FNP]

No pics because I ate what was there (not many because the trees were potted). I did find pics for you online and they looked exactly like these photos

https://www.google.com/search?q=bud...IVxtOACh2tUACm&dpr=1.09#imgrc=xvojwFBWa0TfKM:

Notice how there is some pink flesh mixed in with the predominant yellow flesh and also how the skin bleeds red into the flesh. Mine had flesh which had somewhat higher proportion of pink flesh but otherwise not much different. Mine also did not have as much russetting as what you are seeing in the pictures. They were on the whole fairly nice looking apples and they were absolutely fine to eat. Again, these are not for those of you who crave really sweet apples

Another apple I would like to introduce you guys to is called the "Bonnie Best" apple and it is sold exclusively by Jung nurseries. It has become my favorite all time apple - very, very tasty and large............and ideally suited for pies for those of you who like to bake or else have spouses who like to bake. It is large because one of the parents is suspected to be Wolf River and the other is speculated to be Secor. It was discovered by a farmer's wife in historic Cookville, WI, growing wild on her property. https://www.jungseed.com/P/30504/Bonnie-Best+Apple+(Semi-Dwarf). When you taste this apple, you will understand why this woman's pies always won awards. I also dehydrated slices from them last fall and the dried fruit was wonderful. For those of you who hunt, the deer like them as much as we people do. There is never any shortage of deer poop around this tree. I grafted a whole mess of them onto B118 rootstock this spring and virtually all of the grafts took - it is a very vigorous tree and highly productive. I cannot say the same for all of the other graftings I did. This tree is resistant to scab and fireblight.

 

[sandbur]

What is the zone hardiness for Bonnie Best?
CAR resistance?

I appreciate your contributions, Lois.

 

[Lois E Brenneman FNP]

Well, one website says 3-9 http://www.backyardgardener.com/plantname/pda_4e85.html
Dave's garden says 4a http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/122124/

It grew wild in Wisconsin - Cooksville - so whatever hardiness zone that is - for sure it grows there. As I recall WI can get rather cold in the winter. Cooksville is listed with Evansville WI which is either 4a or 4b depending on which source you consult. I would say 4a is probably a safe bet and likely somewhat colder if it is grafted onto very hardy rootstock. Hey, guys, so when do we get all of this "global warming" they keep promising us. Can't say as I have gotten much "warming" where I live but what do I know. Last year we had one of the coldest winters here on record. This summer and last we did not need to turn on the air even once which is not typical for where we live. Where ever the warming is, it is not where I am. (5b)

 

[sandbur]

Well, one website says 3-9 http://www.backyardgardener.com/plantname/pda_4e85.html
Dave's garden says 4a http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/122124/

It grew wild in Wisconsin - Cooksville - so whatever hardiness zone that is - for sure it grows there. As I recall WI can get rather cold in the winter. Cooksville is listed with Evansville WI which is either 4a or 4b depending on which source you consult. I would say 4a is probably a safe bet and likely somewhat colder if it is grafted onto very hardy rootstock. Hey, guys, so when do we get all of this "global warming" they keep promising us. Can't say as I have gotten much "warming" where I live but what do I know. Last year we had one of the coldest winters here on record. This summer and last we did not need to turn on the air even once which is not typical for where we live. Where ever the warming is, it is not where I am. (5b)

Right here in the center of Minnesota, most of our crops are ahead of schedule, as are the apples and garden crops.
We have had more 90 degree days than the Twin Cities which is south of us.
It has been a good year, but I am ready for the approaching cold front and a bit of rain.

 

[jaximus]

any chance you can post pics of your trees? how long have you had them? how long till they fruited from rootstock? i actually got 25 rootstocks late this spring and tossed some in pots and some in the ground. the potted ones, from rootstock that was 2 ft tall, are now 6 ft tall and i trimmed all the side branches so its just one leader. i babied them with water and osmocote. the ones that went right to the ground bushed out more as i couldnt keep an eye on them and are now 4ft tallish after i pruned the side branches. they are currently in our caged nursery area and the plan was to dig them up and move them in the spring after the logger went through this winter and did his cutting.

 

[Lot2Learn]

I've had a couple of failed grafts on b.118 roots and I t-budded (Liberty) onto it again this year. If it doesn't take, your post gives me the confidence to just treat the b.118 as a tree itself and I'll take that tart apple.

 

[Lois E Brenneman FNP]

absolutely do that - even if the t-bud does take, let a branch or two of the B118 grow to see if you like the fruit. They are tart but there is enough sweetness that the overall effect is quite edible. They are literally sweet and tart at the same time. Since you have mentioned budding, I was about to start a thread to discuss budding. Most of us "apple people" who post here have grafting pretty much down pat. I am willing to bet that I am not the only one who can't seem to get the whole budding thing to work. Would it be asking too much if you could start a new thread on budding and let us all ask questions about how it is done. The successful "budders" can then help the rest of us. I have yet to have a single bud take. Suppose to be that it is easier than grafting but you could not prove that by me.

The trees from which I got the fruit are not much to look at because they have been neglected - literally for years - in posts in an enclosed area where I keep meaning to do something with them. I don't seem to get around to it. My guess is that they are about 6 or so feet tall now - bought them years ago as small rootstock trees. Last year I planted two of them and they are doing just fine. I m going to plant more of them this fall. I'll see if I can get some pics of them to post. As I am sure you all know, the leaves are dark and maroon colored over the green so they are very distinctive. One of the obstacles I face is that, as a woman, I can't break the soil enough to dig a hole big enough to plant a tree. I am dependent on my husband to do it for me and he uses the backhoe to dig the holes then he fences them in with welded wire - also too heavy for me to handle. He buys big 50 foot rolls of them. I certainly can't lift the rolls. I did do an end run around the problem one year with large rose bushes which had grown in 7 gallon pots. I depotted them and then sat them on top of the soil. Then, I mounded loads of top soil around them and it worked. I suppose that could be done with trees as well - the roots will likely pierce the soil over time but it is certainly not the ideal way to plant a tree. I suppose I should try it with a few trees just to see if it works. The roses are doing great. I certainly have enough neglected potted trees that I could spare some to see if this method would work for tree planting.

 

[jaximus]

i would still love a picture of how the trees look and do you have any idea on how many years youve had them? caliper? so they are fruiting at 6 ft tall? thats wonderful!

growing them out a bit more from rootstock in 3 gallon rootmakers would be a nice side project in the spring while i work on plums/acorns in the smaller trays. then when they are ready for the bigger containers, plant the rootstocks! my plan is for a wildlife apple.

 

[Lois E Brenneman FNP]

OK, I went back over my spreadsheets and it turns out that I never actually bought the rootstock, per se. In 2008, I bought a whole bunch of trees wholesale from Stark Bros commercial diversion - the vast majority of which were on B118. We planted a lot of trees that year but we also had a lot left over in pots which we intended to sell. We had bought the farm in 2005 and started planting trees in 2006. In 2008 I was thinking we might have a nursery as a side business but that never actually happened. When I started doing the math and then realized how labor intensive the whole thing was, it turns out that I could earn more working one day at my profession than I could earn selling trees for a month or more - to say nothing of the heavy physical labor involved. I gave up on the nursery idea but the bottom line is that I had ordered a whole lot of trees that year. I knew about deer so we fenced the trees in an enclosure........BUT I did not know about rabbits (!). We did not make the enclosures rabbit-proof. Well, it turns out that we had a total disaster in that during the winter of 2008-2009. The rabbits ate and/or girdled most of the trees in pots with relatively few that could be salvaged. I never knew about rabbits before - so much for my notion of how cute the little "bunnies" were. The ate everything!

Some trees came back up above the graft but many did not. Accordingly, I had a whole lot of B118 rootstock planted in pots by default. Some of them got subsequently grafted upon once I learned how to do it. Others did not and grew into trees in their own right. In the meanwhile, the B118s have been fruiting in pots for several years now in pots. I never tried the fruit until yesterday. Previous years by the time I got around to doing so, the fruit had already fallen and there was not all that much on these potted trees to begin with. I am thinking that the rootstock must have been about 2 years old when Stark made the trees so that would make my trees about 9-10 years old. They have been fruiting - sporadically - in pots for about 2-3 years now so I guess that they fruit somewhere when they are 7-8 years old if my assumptions about them being 2 years old when Stark grafted them are correct.

We were plagued by rabbits until one year when a family of grey foxes moved in and ate them all. Once the foxes moved in, there was not a rabbit to be found anywhere. Prior to the foxes, the coyotes - however numerous they were - were simply not handling the problem.

 

[jaximus]

sounds good! i would assume the girdling set them back a bit, so maybe it would be 4/5 years from a healthy protected rootstock. i got a few of mine to 6 ft tall from june 1-sept1 from the 2 ft rootstock in pots. thats just one leader and all the other limbs clipped very early on. plus i was silly and had them in 1 gallon pots for a bit. if i would have started in 3 gallon and had the osmocote and micromax, i probably could have done better. that root grows like a weed!

 

[Lois E Brenneman FNP]

Truth be told, the girdling did not set them back all that much. You are correct in that this rootstock does grown like weeds. One way you can make lots of cloned little trees is to take two or three of them, plant them in a sunny location and, then, cut them near to the ground. Next, cover the stumps with a mound of dirt (called stool bedding). Soon all manner of rooted shoots will start popping up, each, effectively, a new baby tree. You can dig up the rooted shoots and plant them in pots or bags. That is how they make them at the rootstock nurseries which, in turn, sell them to customers who want rootstock. The mounds will produce the shoots over and over, giving you a continual supply of baby trees to dig up and pot. They do this even in the pots, if I cut the leader after a failed graft. In that case, they throw out shoots near the edges of the pots which I can separate out and repot. The shoots have nice little sets of roots. The trees which are fruiting now in pots are ones where I let the leader grow undisturbed.

 

[Lois E Brenneman FNP]

Oh one more way to make lots of new trees - which I forgot to mention in the previous thread is to clip some of the roots before you plant the trees. Simply take pieces of roots off the ends of the root mass by clipping them off with a pruning sheers. One-eighth in diameter is big enough but fatter sections are better if the root ball is large enough. Next plant these root clippings in pots and cover them completely with dirt - don't leave anything sticking up above the soil line. Soon enough shoots come up making new trees. I have used this method with Kerr seedlings and also with pear rootstock - specifically P betufolia. I don't recommend Kerr as rootstock - not hardy enough. P betufolia, however, is virtually impossible to kill. It grows like weeds and you will have little pear trees everywhere if you let it escape the pots. They have large thorns which make them very unpleasant to be around. These pear trees grow very quickly and will literally tower over you in short order. Not surprisingly, trees grafted onto this stock do very well. The fruit from P betufolia, however, if allowed to grow into a tree, is completely worthless and even deer won't eat it. All of it's grafts will take and it makes for very vigorous pear trees. I have never had a failed graft on this stock. I had a potted P betufolia one get away from me near a telephone pole and it grew half-way up the pole in the few years. Cut it down once already and it is back up there again just like nothing ever happened to it. Remember in physics class when the instructor told you that matter can neither be created nor destroyed? Well, it was all a lie because, obviously, the instructor never owned one of these rootstock trees.

 

[sandbur]

I have also started crab apple trees from pieces of root. I only start these in the spring.
Damaging the roots can stimulate growth of sprouts, just like with plum trees.

 

[Lois E Brenneman FNP]

Well, I am no expert on chestnut but I can share a few tidbids with you.

1. It is possible to nut-graft chestnuts wherein you graft the scion directly to the chestnut thereby avoiding the "middle man" i.e. the rootstock chestnuts. If you do a google search you will find some guy who explains it in detail.

2. Since the 1930s one cannot grow American chestnuts due to the blight. What we are growing is the Chinese chestnuts and they are fairly easy to grow. The seedlings are cheap and they do well. Recently there is reported stands of American chestnuts somewhere up in the northern states which are allegedly resistant. People have been working on resistant strains of American chestnuts, here-to-fore without success but supposedly over the last few years someone has reported success. I have both grafted and seedlings growing. My experience is that the grafted fair better. They are very productive. Put them in in 2006 and have been getting chestnuts for several years now. This year I have a whole lot of nuts but they will all go to the wildlife because the prickly out shell is too troublesome (and painful!) to deal with. I don't like chest nuts enough to go through the trouble and physical pain from handling them to extracting them. I have not yet gotten pecans which also went in the ground in 2006

You did not ask but here is some info on northern hardy pecans. Theseedlings are notoriously difficult to grow. Once they germinate, they often do not survive to the following spring even after growing for a summer - at least such is so with potted seedlings. Perhaps the one's grown in actual growing sites do better. There is a whole lot of winter kill even with so called nortern hardy. When you buy bareroot seedlings, many will not leaf out but have to be sweated under plastic to get them to leaf out - many do not make it through the winter. Now, having said all of that, I have six large pecan trees growing well since 2006. The grafted ones cost a small fortune but they seem to survive better. I have wasted a whole lot of money on cheap seedlings. Not so cheap when they all die.