working with natural regen

[nchunter1989]

Hi all-

Deer season is coming to a close here in NC & I've been reviewing my mental "work list"for next year. One thing I'm considering is thinning out patches of oaks, sweet gum & cherry trees that are in the regenerating pines.

Landowner wants to keep the pines, has talked about replanting with long-leaf but at 5 years after the cutting & regrowth, i don't see that happening. So would it be benefit us to go in & clear out the hardwoods around the pines? or just do a hack & squirt?

Also would it help to try & thin out the pines,pick out the best looking ones or just let them grow? This is North side of property,20 acre leg.


South side facing east.Theres about 6 acres here of pine regen..

 

[bueller]

Honestly from the pics it looks good as is to me. What are you trying to accomplish by altering what is happening naturally?

 

[nchunter1989]

My thought is that by taking out the hardwoods, we would be giving nutrients back to the pines. Or is that not worth loosing the cover?

LO is talking about a burn on the north side Jan-Feb.. I'm also looking at cutting a long lane North/South, parallel with the oaks you see there.Already cleared around them this year & got some rye growing.But early season or even now its too thick to see anything moving that far out.

 

[yoderjac]

I would let the hardwoods leaf out in the spring. Once the root systems have expended all their energy pushing out those leaves, deprive them the energy the leaves will collect by spraying them. Arsenal would be a reasonable choice as it would kill the hardwoods while preserving the pines. The pines might yellow a bit but will be will bounce back quickly and thrive without the hardwood competition. The hardwoods will be replaced by herbaceous growth that is good deer food until the pines eventually canopy.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[nchunter1989]

I would let the hardwoods leaf out in the spring. Once the root systems have expended all their energy pushing out those leaves, deprive them the energy the leaves will collect by spraying them. Arsenal would be a reasonable choice as it would kill the hardwoods while preserving the pines. The pines might yellow a bit but will be will bounce back quickly and thrive without the hardwood competition. The hardwoods will be replaced by herbaceous growth that is good deer food until the pines eventually canopy.

Thanks,

Jack

thanks Jack- thats what i was thinking, we are doing some hinging also across from the south pics in a 3ac mature block, looking to improve our holding ability. Sightings have been waay down last few years.

 

[yoderjac]

thanks Jack- thats what i was thinking, we are doing some hinging also across from the south pics in a 3ac mature block, looking to improve our holding ability. Sightings have been waay down last few years.

I'm in VA, north of you. We have had a long period of increasing populations over many years and harvest regulation have been liberal. Harvests increased from the late 1980 pretty steadily until the last few years in spite of the fact that hunter numbers have dropped significantly over the same period. This was accomplished by harvesting more deer per hunter.

Coyotes have been returning to the area and bear populations have been increasing. Both are significant factors in recruitment. While CWD has been found in a few cases in the western part of VA, it has not yet had any impact on the population. However, EHD has had an impact on the south eastern part of VA.

With all of these factors, I expect our deer harvest in VA to decline slightly over the next decade or so. I'm not sure if NC is in a similar position or not.

One more thing to consider is that sightings are probably not the best indicator of populations. We have years when my hunters are saying there are not deer (we record observations on every hunt) but my camera network running 24/7/365 shows no change. The next year, observations may be way up and again the camera data may show no real change. This is generally because of how deer relate to food sources and react to hunting pressure. In the years when hunters observe fewer deer, the camera data shows few daytime deer and many night time observations. The deer haven't left, they just have sufficient food in cover that they don't need to move as much and expose themselves during daylight.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[nchunter1989]

I'm in VA, north of you. We have had a long period of increasing populations over many years and harvest regulation have been liberal. Harvests increased from the late 1980 pretty steadily until the last few years in spite of the fact that hunter numbers have dropped significantly over the same period. This was accomplished by harvesting more deer per hunter.

Coyotes have been returning to the area and bear populations have been increasing. Both are significant factors in recruitment. While CWD has been found in a few cases in the western part of VA, it has not yet had any impact on the population. However, EHD has had an impact on the south eastern part of VA.

With all of these factors, I expect our deer harvest in VA to decline slightly over the next decade or so. I'm not sure if NC is in a similar position or not.

One more thing to consider is that sightings are probably not the best indicator of populations. We have years when my hunters are saying there are not deer (we record observations on every hunt) but my camera network running 24/7/365 shows no change. The next year, observations may be way up and again the camera data may show no real change. This is generally because of how deer relate to food sources and react to hunting pressure. In the years when hunters observe fewer deer, the camera data shows few daytime deer and many night time observations. The deer haven't left, they just have sufficient food in cover that they don't need to move as much and expose themselves during daylight.

Thanks,

Jack

Yeah harvest is down in NC this year due to several factors. The bumper crop of mast we had, & a population decrease from several years of unlimited doe tags.I know there is deer in the area, I'm seeing more tracks & sign, but it seems alot of the movement is nocturnal. I'm looking at investing in a couple of cell cams this coming year, going to run them year round & see what we have. Another goal this coming year is to clear around our oaks & also cut lanes for better line of sight to the oaks.

Boll Weevil,

What your talking about is exactly why I asked the question. Thats the ultimate goal, to balance timber management & wildlife habitat.If I can take out the hardwoods & get more browse growing in those areas & also create cover for turkeys & small game, win all around.

 

[H20fwler]

Hinging the pines to thin and direct deer traffic is a good idea, not sure I would be cutting the oaks they will be an excellent food source for wildlife in the future and depending on what type of oaks may have a cash value some day (just longer turn around than the pines but worth more).
Diversity is always a good thing to have with trees.

 

[sandbur]

Hinging the pines to thin and direct deer traffic is a good idea, not sure I would be cutting the oaks they will be an excellent food source for wildlife in the future and depending on what type of oaks may have a cash value some day (just longer turn around than the pines but worth more).
Diversity is always a good thing to have with trees.

Do pines hinge in your area?

None of the pines in Minnesota hinge very well.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Hinged pine = dead pine here.

 

[H20fwler]

Do pines hinge in your area?

None of the pines in Minnesota hinge very well.

I've never hinged a pine here. Any conifer here is pretty much a hand planted tree.

 

[nchunter1989]

Hinging the pines to thin and direct deer traffic is a good idea, not sure I would be cutting the oaks they will be an excellent food source for wildlife in the future and depending on what type of oaks may have a cash value some day (just longer turn around than the pines but worth more).
Diversity is always a good thing to have with trees.

There are several mature or older oaks, also some regen we are letting grow back. But the ones I'm talking about cutting are crowded & packed in with other hardwoods.I want to get those out & funnel them to the mast producing oaks in the area.

 

[yoderjac]

I haven't been able to hinge pines in central VA. The pines I have here will snap rather than hinge.

 

[nchunter1989]

Do pines hinge in your area?

None of the pines in Minnesota hinge very well.

I can hinge small ones- 1-1.5" if I do it slowly by hand. but anything larger will snap.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Through a combination of mechanical and chemical treatments, we do a lot of thinning in regenerating timber and the transformation is really fascinating to observe. Primary goals are timber value and wildlife habitat and in most cases, can accomplish both goals at the same time.

I'll try and post some before/after pictures of areas that were overcrowded with poor species mix and many low quality stems. We rolled through there with saws in the summer and in some cases basal sprayed in the winter. 2 years later the crop trees have absolutely taken off, brush piles created nesting and cover for turkeys/quail and small critters. Plus, a little more sunlight hitting the ground created browse for deer that wasn't there before.

Contrast the above to areas that have not yet been thinned and are composed of mostly junk that is competing with valuable timber for resources. Getting that stuff on the ground is hard work but letting your "keepers" thrive while improving wildlife habitat is great stewardship and really rewarding to watch over time. Here's a before/after of an area that was volunteer loblolly with a bunch of junk maple, sweetgum, cedar, and privet that you couldn't walk through prior to thinning.