Rind Graft

CedarSwamp

5 year old buck +
How do I know when to do the Rind graft? I have the scions cut and stored and all the supplies I need. I know which trees I’ll be doing the Rind grafts on. What signs do I look for in the trees that I’ll be Rind grafting the scions to to know when is the right time?
 
You can graft as soon as the tree's buds start to leaf out and there is no danger of a hard frost.
 
Rind graft is another name for bark graft. On this forum, most folks immediately think you are referring to pome fruit. I would say it really depends on the kind of tree you are grafting. I've done a lot of bark grafting on persimmons. The important thing is that the bark is slipping well and the sap is flowing well. With well established persimmon trees, the ideal time to bark graft them in my area (zone 7a) is during the month of May. Our last threat of frost is about April 15th here. You can certainly do it sooner or later. I get better takes with persimmons if I wait until the leaves are well formed rather than just the size of squirrel ears. I would not try it before they hit squirrel ear size.

With persimmons, I would tend to bark graft small trees a bit earlier and larger trees a bit later. When you are talking about trees in the 2" to 4" diameter class, the roots have a huge amount of energy stored. There is plenty for the tree to completely leaf out, then have you cut it down, push out a growth on multiple scions, and still produce a lot of water sprouts after grafting. With trees less than an inch in diameter, if you bark graft them when the leaves are closer to squirrel ear size, you can be sure the tree will still have enough stored energy to push out growth on a single scion.

None of this necessarily applies apples or stone fruit. I don't have enough experience bark grafting them to offer an opinion.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Whoops....I didn’t even say what type of tree. I’ll be doing the bark grafts onto some 12 year old Granny Smith Apple trees planted on M111. Planted those before I knew what I was doing and the trees never produce fruit. I took scions from two trees that produce really well for us which are Eves Delight and Transparent. I want more early season Apple trees and late hangers. Our two Eves Delight hang on really well and actually drop quite a bit in January and February!

I’m in 4b and we can still get a hard frost in May so I’ll have to keep an eye on the weather.
 
I don't have enough experience with apples yet to be a good source, but out of curiosity, why a bark graft verses a cleft graft or some other type of graft that can be done with both tree and scion dormant?

Thanks,

Jack
 
I don't have enough experience with apples yet to be a good source, but out of curiosity, why a bark graft verses a cleft graft or some other type of graft that can be done with both tree and scion dormant?

Thanks,

Jack

Cleft grafts are hard to do on bigger trees.

If I tried to top work when dormant, I feel Frost can kill the scion.. true or false?

I think that happened last spring, even though I top worked when leaves were starting to come out.


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Cleft grafts are hard to do on bigger trees.

If I tried to top work when dormant, I feel Frost can kill the scion.. true or false?

I think that happened last spring, even though I top worked when leaves were starting to come out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Makes sense. Thanks!
 
When I looked into it online I saw that a lot of comercial orchards were doing Rind grafts when a certain variety wasn’t economical anymore so they’d change the variety with a Rind graft. They sure make it look easy.

My concern would be getting a late frost, but if it fails I’ll just end up planting new trees there. I’ll honestly surprise myself if it works....lol!
 
Thanks for the info!
 
When I looked into it online I saw that a lot of comercial orchards were doing Rind grafts when a certain variety wasn’t economical anymore so they’d change the variety with a Rind graft. They sure make it look easy.

My concern would be getting a late frost, but if it fails I’ll just end up planting new trees there. I’ll honestly surprise myself if it works....lol!

Once again, my experience is with persimmons not apples but I would think some of this might apply. You didn't mention the size the tree, but well established trees can support multiple bark grafts. Only one scion needs to take, but if you do 2 or 3, the chances of at least one of them taking go way up. You only keep one. If you keep two you create a bad crotch situation and the tree can split. After you are absolutely sure at least one or more has taken, you can remove all but one. With persimmons I will often leave them all summer and cull the rest in the winter. Persimmons really push water sprouts below the graft that need to be removed every week or so. The extra scions will take some of that excess energy meaning I need to remove water sprouts a little less often.

Most other types of grafts rely on cambium alignment. Bark grafting does not. I find one of the keys a successful bark graft is pressure. I like to use electrical tape. It has a little stretch to it and can provide better pressure than something like freezer tape which I use for other grafts like whip and tongue. I also like to cut the tree down at a slight angle. If you cut it square, water can pool on the wound. Even protected with grafting seal, water pooling is not a good thing. When I graft, I don't put a scion at the lowest point of that angle where water will drain into the graft. Thicker sealant is better than thin stuff like doc farwell's. It can be used but you need to be careful that more liquid like sealant does not run down into the bark grafts.

When bark grafting outdoors, the scions will be exposed to the elements. If they dry out before the graft takes they will die. To maximize the chances of success, I like to wrap them in Parafilm-M. Parafilm-M is a type of parafilm used in laboratories to seal test tubes and stuff. It is thick and sort of waxy. When you stretch it a little it becomes thinner and it sticks to itself. It breaks down and is easy for trees to push buds through it. If I have a southern exposure, I make a sun shield out of aluminum foil and tape it to the tree to shade the scion from the sun. Finally, I cable tie a bamboo stick to the tree trunk. Small birds like to light on the tallest site on the tree which will be your scions if you don't use the bamboo. They are light, but when they jump to take flight or land with any speed, it can cause enough movement to dislodge the graft before it is solid. They will tend to light on the bamboo instead. The bamboo stake also serves to train the new central leader. With a larger tree, there is so much energy in the root system the graft can really grow fast that first growing season. Until it hardens, it may tend to fall over or can break in the wind. I use cable ties to very loosely attach the new growth to the stake. It can still blow in the wind but is limited by the cable ties so it won't break. This also helps it grow straight that first season until it hardens.

Again, apples guys may want to way in on anything unique to bark grafting apples, but these techniques work very well with persimmons and I would expect they would have value to apples as well.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Thanks Jack! This is a lot of great information! I like the bamboo stick idea and cutting them on an angle.

The Apple trees are around 12 years old and I’ll cut them down to three main branches close to the main trunk and those will be around 4” in diameter.
 
When I looked into it online I saw that a lot of comercial orchards were doing Rind grafts when a certain variety wasn’t economical anymore so they’d change the variety with a Rind graft. They sure make it look easy.

My concern would be getting a late frost, but if it fails I’ll just end up planting new trees there. I’ll honestly surprise myself if it works....lol!

Once again, my experience is with persimmons not apples but I would think some of this might apply. You didn't mention the size the tree, but well established trees can support multiple bark grafts. Only one scion needs to take, but if you do 2 or 3, the chances of at least one of them taking go way up. You only keep one. If you keep two you create a bad crotch situation and the tree can split. After you are absolutely sure at least one or more has taken, you can remove all but one. With persimmons I will often leave them all summer and cull the rest in the winter. Persimmons really push water sprouts below the graft that need to be removed every week or so. The extra scions will take some of that excess energy meaning I need to remove water sprouts a little less often.

Most other types of grafts rely on cambium alignment. Bark grafting does not. I find one of the keys a successful bark graft is pressure. I like to use electrical tape. It has a little stretch to it and can provide better pressure than something like freezer tape which I use for other grafts like whip and tongue. I also like to cut the tree down at a slight angle. If you cut it square, water can pool on the wound. Even protected with grafting seal, water pooling is not a good thing. When I graft, I don't put a scion at the lowest point of that angle where water will drain into the graft. Thicker sealant is better than thin stuff like doc farwell's. It can be used but you need to be careful that more liquid like sealant does not run down into the bark grafts.

When bark grafting outdoors, the scions will be exposed to the elements. If they dry out before the graft takes they will die. To maximize the chances of success, I like to wrap them in Parafilm-M. Parafilm-M is a type of parafilm used in laboratories to seal test tubes and stuff. It is thick and sort of waxy. When you stretch it a little it becomes thinner and it sticks to itself. It breaks down and is easy for trees to push buds through it. If I have a southern exposure, I make a sun shield out of aluminum foil and tape it to the tree to shade the scion from the sun. Finally, I cable tie a bamboo stick to the tree trunk. Small birds like to light on the tallest site on the tree which will be your scions if you don't use the bamboo. They are light, but when they jump to take flight or land with any speed, it can cause enough movement to dislodge the graft before it is solid. They will tend to light on the bamboo instead. The bamboo stake also serves to train the new central leader. With a larger tree, there is so much energy in the root system the graft can really grow fast that first growing season. Until it hardens, it may tend to fall over or can break in the wind. I use cable ties to very loosely attach the new growth to the stake. It can still blow in the wind but is limited by the cable ties so it won't break. This also helps it grow straight that first season until it hardens.

Again, apples guys may want to way in on anything unique to bark grafting apples, but these techniques work very well with persimmons and I would expect they would have value to apples as well.

Thanks,

Jack

Lathe fastened to the tree with sheet rock screws, then new growth fastened to the lathe with an old nylon. Birds also break off leaders on some of my spruce trees.
c483cfa2dc2cf05221104b4facfc0844.jpg


This is Noran on a flowering crab.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
When I looked into it online I saw that a lot of comercial orchards were doing Rind grafts when a certain variety wasn’t economical anymore so they’d change the variety with a Rind graft. They sure make it look easy.

My concern would be getting a late frost, but if it fails I’ll just end up planting new trees there. I’ll honestly surprise myself if it works....lol!

Once again, my experience is with persimmons not apples but I would think some of this might apply. You didn't mention the size the tree, but well established trees can support multiple bark grafts. Only one scion needs to take, but if you do 2 or 3, the chances of at least one of them taking go way up. You only keep one. If you keep two you create a bad crotch situation and the tree can split. After you are absolutely sure at least one or more has taken, you can remove all but one. With persimmons I will often leave them all summer and cull the rest in the winter. Persimmons really push water sprouts below the graft that need to be removed every week or so. The extra scions will take some of that excess energy meaning I need to remove water sprouts a little less often.

Most other types of grafts rely on cambium alignment. Bark grafting does not. I find one of the keys a successful bark graft is pressure. I like to use electrical tape. It has a little stretch to it and can provide better pressure than something like freezer tape which I use for other grafts like whip and tongue. I also like to cut the tree down at a slight angle. If you cut it square, water can pool on the wound. Even protected with grafting seal, water pooling is not a good thing. When I graft, I don't put a scion at the lowest point of that angle where water will drain into the graft. Thicker sealant is better than thin stuff like doc farwell's. It can be used but you need to be careful that more liquid like sealant does not run down into the bark grafts.

When bark grafting outdoors, the scions will be exposed to the elements. If they dry out before the graft takes they will die. To maximize the chances of success, I like to wrap them in Parafilm-M. Parafilm-M is a type of parafilm used in laboratories to seal test tubes and stuff. It is thick and sort of waxy. When you stretch it a little it becomes thinner and it sticks to itself. It breaks down and is easy for trees to push buds through it. If I have a southern exposure, I make a sun shield out of aluminum foil and tape it to the tree to shade the scion from the sun. Finally, I cable tie a bamboo stick to the tree trunk. Small birds like to light on the tallest site on the tree which will be your scions if you don't use the bamboo. They are light, but when they jump to take flight or land with any speed, it can cause enough movement to dislodge the graft before it is solid. They will tend to light on the bamboo instead. The bamboo stake also serves to train the new central leader. With a larger tree, there is so much energy in the root system the graft can really grow fast that first growing season. Until it hardens, it may tend to fall over or can break in the wind. I use cable ties to very loosely attach the new growth to the stake. It can still blow in the wind but is limited by the cable ties so it won't break. This also helps it grow straight that first season until it hardens.

Again, apples guys may want to way in on anything unique to bark grafting apples, but these techniques work very well with persimmons and I would expect they would have value to apples as well.

Thanks,

Jack

Some good advice there, Jack. In the graft in the above post, I think I added a sheet rock screw to hold the bark tight. Overgrowth seems to have hidden the screw.

I am going to switch to electrical tape on bigger topworks and see if I can get a tighter wrap. I also will cut the rootstock at a slight angle.

I had been using stretched grocery bags to wrap and it did not work as well on bigger topworks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Some good advice there, Jack. In the graft in the above post, I think I added a sheet rock screw to hold the bark tight. Overgrowth seems to have hidden the screw.

I am going to switch to electrical tape on bigger topworks and see if I can get a tighter wrap. I also will cut the rootstock at a slight angle.

I had been using stretched grocery bags to wrap and it did not work as well on bigger topworks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I use inexpensive electrical tape which works pretty well that I use for most of my persimmon grafting. If I have a tree that I really want to maximize the chances of take with larger root stock, I use this: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Scotch-2242-Rubber-Splicing-15-ft-Electrical-Tape/50430522

It is a bit thicker and you can put it on a little tighter.

Thanks,

Jack
 
When I looked into it online I saw that a lot of comercial orchards were doing Rind grafts when a certain variety wasn’t economical anymore so they’d change the variety with a Rind graft. They sure make it look easy.

My concern would be getting a late frost, but if it fails I’ll just end up planting new trees there. I’ll honestly surprise myself if it works....lol!
I did a handful of cleft grafts today on existing 1-3 year old pear and apple trees. Temps in the next few weeks will be as low as ~24 degrees a few nights. So we'll see if they take. A few years ago I did a bunch of cleft grafts in march and they had an almost 100% survival rate in spite of a night or two in the low 20's within two weeks of grafting.
 
C149E339-102F-48D9-A1F6-A7F44C72B5F5.jpeg
 
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The pic above is my Rind (Bark) Graft. The original tree is a Granny Smith on M111. I grafted Yellow Transparent, Eves Delight, and Zestar to it. So far it looks pretty good. I hope it continues to grow.

Thanks again for all your advice. If this works well I have a number of other Granny Smith Apple trees to do Rind Grafts on. Granny Smith just doesn’t produce apples in our area....we’re a bit too far North.
 
This is one year after I bark grafted a big apple tree last spring. Used dormant scions and waited for the tree to come out of dormancy before cutting the top out and grafting. I did several big trees and all of them were successful. Haven't measured the new growth but it appears to be about 7 or 8 feet in one year.

Used cane shoots and duct tape to make a scaffold to add support to the new limbs and brace them some from strong winds during the first year. The year before that I didn't do that and lost some. The bracing worked and didn't lose any. I will always do that from now on, and then just remove it in the second year.



MpOGVwfh.jpg
 
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I’ll make sure I do that. I only did one tree this spring, but if it works which I think it will then I’ll do another 4 or 5 next spring.
 
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