All Things Habitat - Lets talk.....
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Old Apple trees
- Thread starter Boone
- Start date
Someone posted a video on a thread here about Cummins pruning an old tree last week. Seems they cut WAY more than 30% of the tree.
When we topwork a tree we essentially cut 100% off the top and graft new scions.
I've always wondered about the 30% recommendation. It seems we break it regularly and things still grow well I spite of that. But I don't know much about that number, I'm still just an apple tree novice hoping someone could explain the science here.
Prof.Kent
5 year old buck +
30% of the LIVE wood is usually the rule. You can remove more but probably not without stressing the tree.
When I topwork a tree I leave one original branch intact (often called a nursery branch) just in case the grafts do not take well or grow slowly. You don't want to starve the roots by not having enough branches to feed the roots. You can remove the nursery branch the next year.
When I topwork a tree I leave one original branch intact (often called a nursery branch) just in case the grafts do not take well or grow slowly. You don't want to starve the roots by not having enough branches to feed the roots. You can remove the nursery branch the next year.
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
30% or 1/3 is a common recommendation passed around. It usually comes from the theory that too much pruning stimulates vegetative growth over fruit production. The theory goes that too much pruning causes excess growth...which will require excess pruning...which causes more growth which requires more pruning...and you'll spend years getting the tree to "settle down" and go back to focusing on fruiting. That is the theory anyway. Without pruning, it won't be producing like it could anyway and different varieties respond to pruning differently so YMMV. For an unpruned wildlife tree, follow the 30% rule if it makes you happy but I don't see any reason not to do major surgery. Another rule of thumb is that any pruning is better than no pruning.
For Boone, cut off what you are sure is dead and then see what you have. From just one photo, it is hard to judge where everything is. It looks like most of the younger growth is all vertical with a big mass in the middle. Most all of the vertical growth could be removed. If you can clear a bunch of that out with a big cut, I'd do it and then thin out the rest. On the right side, it looks like it splits into 2 big branches with one on top of the other. I'd make a cut there to remove one or other other.
If after you've done that pruning you still aren't happy, there is a vigorous sucker off the trunk about 3-4 foot up on this side. Assuming you left that intact while you were cutting the rest, you could just cut the whole tree down above that sucker and let the sucker grow a new new tree. The roots will push that sucker vigorously. I'd prune/top the sucker at 8 to 10ft tall and with a little attention you'd have a whole new tree in 3-4 years with good structure.
For Boone, cut off what you are sure is dead and then see what you have. From just one photo, it is hard to judge where everything is. It looks like most of the younger growth is all vertical with a big mass in the middle. Most all of the vertical growth could be removed. If you can clear a bunch of that out with a big cut, I'd do it and then thin out the rest. On the right side, it looks like it splits into 2 big branches with one on top of the other. I'd make a cut there to remove one or other other.
If after you've done that pruning you still aren't happy, there is a vigorous sucker off the trunk about 3-4 foot up on this side. Assuming you left that intact while you were cutting the rest, you could just cut the whole tree down above that sucker and let the sucker grow a new new tree. The roots will push that sucker vigorously. I'd prune/top the sucker at 8 to 10ft tall and with a little attention you'd have a whole new tree in 3-4 years with good structure.
H20fwler
5 year old buck +
One thing that always concerns me on pruning dead stuff off big older trees is what killed the branches if it is an unknown. Wouldn't want to cross contaminate any tools you might use on healthy trees if branches were struck by FB or something.
I think its a great project bringing back and old fruit tree and giving it new life to fruit and grow again.
I think its a great project bringing back and old fruit tree and giving it new life to fruit and grow again.
Bowsnbucks
5 year old buck +
^^^^ I keep a large bottle of hand sanitizer with me when pruning and a few clean rags. I just wipe the lopper blades clean between trees to keep from spreading any disease. I also only use that set of loppers for apple tree pruning - nothing else gets pruned with those loppers. Extra precaution !!!
I know what you mean about "what killed the branch" when pruning an older tree. Makes me wonder too.
I know what you mean about "what killed the branch" when pruning an older tree. Makes me wonder too.
Diesel5610
5 year old buck +
Not bad news, but useful info. Thanks for posting. Interesting.
Northbound
5 year old buck +
I hope I'm not hijacking but this seems relevant enough... a friend has 3 apple trees(8 to 10"diameter trunks), one of which never makes fruit. Unknown varieties. I was going to cut it off at say a3 foot stump and graft a few scions into it (likely goldrush, liberty). This would be removing something like 90%of tree... are you guys saying I'm better off grafting to individual branches to keep more original tree?
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
Not sure where Kent got his information but studies I've seen show bleach, Lysol, and Pinesol are all effective at killing fireblight bacteria. Of those, original Lysol is least corrosive and easier to work with than bleach. But your tools need to be pretty clean before your disinfect them. If they are pitted, corroded, or dirty, there will be lots of places for bacteria to survive. Also, you need to give it a long enough soak to allow the disinfectant to work. Not sure everyone will do that in the field.
I've read that rubbing/isopropyl alcohol is only moderately effective. Not sure about ethyl alcohol hand sanitizer but my guess it would be better than nothing.
For winter pruning, I'm not sure it how much you need to worry about spreading pathogens. And if you are pruning out fireblight infections during the growing season, sanitizing between cuts doesn't do much other than waste time. Even though you might be cutting 8-12" below what looks infected, you can assume the wood you are cutting through still has bacteria in it. The value is getting the most infected wood off the tree and out of the orchard.
I've read that rubbing/isopropyl alcohol is only moderately effective. Not sure about ethyl alcohol hand sanitizer but my guess it would be better than nothing.
For winter pruning, I'm not sure it how much you need to worry about spreading pathogens. And if you are pruning out fireblight infections during the growing season, sanitizing between cuts doesn't do much other than waste time. Even though you might be cutting 8-12" below what looks infected, you can assume the wood you are cutting through still has bacteria in it. The value is getting the most infected wood off the tree and out of the orchard.
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
Either way can work, up to you decide what is best. If the tree has good branching structure, cutting those back and grafting onto those gets you back to a mature, fruiting tree quicker. It's more work, more grafts, more scions, up on a ladder, etc. You run the risk that future pruning might remove your grafts and it will be back to undesired fruit. If you cut off the tree and start over, it takes longer to get back to mature tree but you can shape what that tree looks like and there is no chance of accidentally removing all the new variety. One other way is to cut it off, let it push growth, and graft onto that growth the following year. But I'd probably do bark grafts on the stump and keep that third option as a backup in case the bark grafts failed.
williams111
5 year old buck +
I have a 20+ foot tall apple tree that I recently found inside the timber, the dbh is 18-24". It still had a couple apples hanging as of 12-20. The trunk is in very rough shape, almost completely hollow from about 5' down, I should've taken pictures. I was going to release the tree to allow more light in and hopefully increase apple production. After seeing the trunk would I be better off topping the tree and hoping to be able to graft to a new stump sprout in the spring? Or should I just release it and see how it responds? I am worried about it blowing over if I release it since it has been protected by larger trees all these years and with the trunk looking the way it does....
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
I'm liking this topic. I have several old crabs that I am thinking about cutting down and letting stump sprout. They are still producing but not nearly as much as they were in the past. They must be full of bugs because the wood peckers have the trunks full of little holes.
Sounds like sapsucker damage. Probably why the trees aren't as productive as they once were.
S.T.Fanatic
5 year old buck +
Can/does this happen on younger prolific trees? Is there something that should be done to prevent it? The reason I ask is I'm planning on planting my fruit trees this spring.
chickenlittle
5 year old buck +
For these old trees, I think we need to keep our expectations in check. A little bit of pruning and slowly releasing nearby trees is probably the better approach. Unless it is in a spot where you want a highly productive tree, spending a little time to help it out is probably better than spending a lot of time and effort on it. And if it ends up overloaded with fruit, it might destroy a weak tree and end up with nothing.
I have a few twenty year old standards that seem to lean a little more every year. I don't think wind is the primary culprit, because these apple trees are surrounded by tall pines and their tilt directions are random. I suspect the soil. It is very coarse sand. I'm tempted to cut the branches way back on the side the tree is leaning toward to balance the crown weight directly over the base of the trunk, as illustrated in this photo. You can also see in the photo that I have the same thing going on with the two trees right behind this one. Comments, suggestions?
buckvelvet
5 year old buck +
I hear it also does a lousy job of getting rid of someone's 'bad day' when they awake the next day with still a crappy previous day and now they've added a headache. :)
