Making land more affordable

[westonwhitetail]

A conservation easement is a noble thing when people want to protect it from future development. Unfortunately it is also in conflict with any habitat mgmt/hunting objectives you might consider.

A WRP for example can prohibit the following...food plots, placing any permanent structures (trailers, sheds, or bldgs) including deer stands or duck blinds (have to be portable), digging or dredging of soil, cutting wood (hinge cutting is a no no), planting trees & shrubs, ATV trails have to be marked & approved with a permit, no gates or fences, no mowing of grasses/weeds until early July because of bird nesting, etc. You pretty much sign away all rights except walking on the property & paying taxes.

Even though the WRP states up to 5% of easement in food plots they are not a given. They look at surrounding properties and assess available food sources. If your property is adjacent to AG land, they may not approve a conditional use permit for a food plot. Yes, you have to have a permit. They also dictate where you can have a food plot if they allow, and control what you can plant. I applied to "renew" an existing conditional use food plot permit. It took over 14 months to get renewal. I almost did not get the permit as the DNR also has to conduct a land use impact survey and they discovered 2 miles away there was a red bellied spotted newt that was on the endangered species list. On 200 plus acres they allowed for just 2 separate 1.5 acre food plots.

Expect WRP personnel to be on your property to audit regularly without notice and they also conduct annual aerial satellite surveys so they will know if you are violating the rules. My neighbor put up a 100 yard shooting target and mowed a 10' wide shooting lane in the grass. He boldly stated they couldn't stop him .... they did and continued to harrass him with property inspections to insure he was in compliance.

Most of the ponds that the WRP/NRCS dug did not perform as designed as they overestimated yearly rainfall by 300%. Ponds were too shallow and became over grown with cattails.

I recently sold several parcels with WRP easement on them. Fortunately I had a couple of build-able acres outside of the easement on each. The deer hunting was also trophy class. It took a long time to sell both and I was able to sell for about 65% of comparable non-easement property.

Thanks for the info. 65% is less is worse than I thought and is the reason I'd be hesitant to buy it. I have a copy of the easement and talked with West Wisconsin Land Trust who is the easement holder. It seems like I could do many of those things except building of a structure, permanant stands etc, maybe it was set up more flexable, but I still don't like having to ask if its ok to do this or that on my own land.

 

[westonwhitetail]

I own 160 acres which we purchased in 3 separate purchases over a 20 year period. None of it was ever listed by a realtor. Like someone else mentioned above, we contacted the landowners and expressed our interest in buying their property. The first 40 acre parcel took 10 years for the owners to decide to sell and by then they knew us very well and gave us a great deal on the purchase because they knew we would be good stewards of their land. The 2nd parcel had been owned by Commercial Forest Companies for "forever" although it did change hands several times. None of them would sell to us. Finally, an investment company in Boston bought all of the land and we approached them and they agreed to sell it to us at what ended up being a "fair" price.

All 160 acres was fully timbered when we purchased it. I have cleared 16 acres which are now planted to food plots. Over the course of time I have had 3 separate small timber sales. Some acreage was clearcut where I wanted food plots but the other logging was all select cuts (TSI Thinning) in the northern hardwoods (Sugar Maple, Basswood, White Ash, Aspen, etc). We sold a total of $54,000 in timber over the 3 sales. All of these timber sales were managed by our own forester whom we paid a 20% commission.

I paid capital gains taxes on the first 2 timber sales and then I learned about using the timber as a "basis" for capital gains as someone else mentioned above. I had my forester go back and cruise the parcel to arrive at the value of the timber when I purchased the property 3 years prior to the timber sale and I used that value as a basis for my capital gains taxes. I ended up paying zero capital gains on the sale and I am pretty certain I will end up paying zero on the next timber sale as well.

Our neighbor is currently tapping 300 Sugar Maples and selling the sap for 0.35 cents per gallon. That is a lot of work and something I'm not interested in doing. We do tap 120 trees for our own Ma & Pa syrup operation and that keeps me busy enough. We make enough syrup to share with friends and family and do sell some which helps pay for supplies. If someone were so inclined they could tap several thousand trees here for a commercial operation but I am not personnaly interested in doing that.

35 cents a gollan is good, must be high sugar content

 

[Telemark]

Seems way too expensive. How long has it been on the market?

If you tell me where in Wisconsin, I could try to finds comps that sold. Or you can try the County, or Zillow.

 

[westonwhitetail]

Seems way too expensive. How long has it been on the market?

If you tell me where in Wisconsin, I could try to finds comps that sold. Or you can try the County, or Zillow.

Its near Spring Valley, WI. The land is in the very south west corner of St Croix County. Near the border of Pierce and Dunn County.

 

[Telemark]

Here is one sold recently in that area:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2881-25th-Ave-Spring-Valley-WI-54767/213140121_zpid/

Here is a current listing:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/Xxx-County-Road-Bb-Spring-Valley-WI-54767/2114895016_zpid/

 

[westonwhitetail]

So the one sold for $3,800 an acre for 10 acres. The other is $3,500 an acre for 60 acres. Thankss for the info

If you applied Tree Spud's 65% to that because of the conservation easement, then the land I was looking at might be worth about $2,275 - $2,450 an acre.

 

[Telemark]

I certainly wouldn't offer any more than that.

 

[WTNUT]

Will try to only offer some thoughts to Westonwitetail’s original questions since everyone has covered a lot. Having a lot of experience buying vacant land, here are some free opinions that may not be worth a penny other than to say been there done that.

1. Look at, price, and make offers on it with the assumption you will not make any yearly income off of it. Then if you do make money that is a true bonus. The truth is that other than leasing it out for AG production it is really hard to plan of a stream of income from vacant land.
2. Try to find land without the use of realtors. Send letters to persons with land in the areas you are looking at and let them know what you are looking for in land. It is amazing how many people will respond and try to help you. Buying it at the “right” price is the key to putting money in your pocket if you ever sell. But, also keep in mind that most of us have no interest in selling as long as we have improved it and we are still above ground. That leads us to the next point.
3. If it is sold, our children or grandchildren are probably the ones who will sell it. Conservation easements are a “potential” problem for the reasons noted above. Also keep in mind that 50 years from now, people may not be hunting as much as we do now and conservation easements only make the land more difficult to market. I have stayed away from them.
4. Assuming you get your land paid off, keep in mind that unlike a home that is paid off many lending institutions will not give you a line of credit on vacant land. So it often is not an asset that can be liquidated quickly either by selling or borrowing against.
5. Now back to income, try to buy land with good timber on it already. Many I have dealt with priced it as a price per acre for land based upon what they thought market was at the time. It didn’t matter if it had timber at $2,300 per acre on it or $200 per acre in timber they normally say land is going for “x” per acre here. So timber is a good investment if you buy right, but someone made really good points regarding the gain per year.
6. Pumpkins, Christmas Trees, Watermellons, sweet corn, and those types of crops are doable but they are labor intensive and you need to do the labor to make any money at it. Things like hay or alfalfa seem like good ideas, but only if you already have land and already cut hay. If not, there is NO money in it and there may not be money in it even then. In my area you can’t pay for the wear and tear on equipment for what you get from hay.
6. In my experience my best deals have been where I bought very large tracts and sold off smaller “parts” that I did not want. Maybe that is a couple acres for a house site, or a pice of AG ground a farmer needed to add to his place. You can almost get much much more per acre for those smaller tracts than you paid for the whole. Best advise is to take your time and find the right piece don’t rush in and buy because if the deal ain’t right the deal ain’t right.


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[Telemark]

So the one sold for $3,800 an acre for 10 acres. The other is $3,500 an acre for 60 acres. Thankss for the info

If you applied Tree Spud's 65% to that because of the conservation easement, then the land I was looking at might be worth about $2,275 - $2,450 an acre.

Actually, rereading what he said, there was a buildable portion to the parcels he sold. That would potentially put the price of the one you are looking at well below 65%.

I would talk to the farmer who leases the ag portion and see what his plan would be if you buy it.

 

[bwoods11]

Conservation easements will drop the price of land in most states to $600-1500 an acre. MN, SD, Iowa, ND

We have quite a few parcels in our area with permanent easements at $900-1100 an acre

 

[westonwhitetail]

Conservation easements will drop the price of land in most states to $600-1500 an acre. MN, SD, Iowa, ND

We have quite a few parcels in our area with permanent easements at $900-1100 an acre

Are those parcels lowland areas, like swampy or marshy pieces? I would think for a wooded rigde like this one is would get snatched up pretty quick for that.

 

[westonwhitetail]

Actually, rereading what he said, there was a buildable portion to the parcels he sold. That would potentially put the price of the one you are looking at well below 65%.

I would talk to the farmer who leases the ag portion and see what his plan would be if you buy it.

Good point, thanks. The farmer just south of it rents it for hay currently, I'll stop and ask someday if he'd keep renting even if I take a couple acres out of the field for food plots.

 

[westonwhitetail]

Will try to only offer some thoughts to Westonwitetail’s original questions since everyone has covered a lot. Having a lot of experience buying vacant land, here are some free opinions that may not be worth a penny other than to say been there done that.

1. Look at, price, and make offers on it with the assumption you will not make any yearly income off of it. Then if you do make money that is a true bonus. The truth is that other than leasing it out for AG production it is really hard to plan of a stream of income from vacant land.
2. Try to find land without the use of realtors. Send letters to persons with land in the areas you are looking at and let them know what you are looking for in land. It is amazing how many people will respond and try to help you. Buying it at the “right” price is the key to putting money in your pocket if you ever sell. But, also keep in mind that most of us have no interest in selling as long as we have improved it and we are still above ground. That leads us to the next point.
3. If it is sold, our children or grandchildren are probably the ones who will sell it. Conservation easements are a “potential” problem for the reasons noted above. Also keep in mind that 50 years from now, people may not be hunting as much as we do now and conservation easements only make the land more difficult to market. I have stayed away from them.
4. Assuming you get your land paid off, keep in mind that unlike a home that is paid off many lending institutions will not give you a line of credit on vacant land. So it often is not an asset that can be liquidated quickly either by selling or borrowing against.
5. Now back to income, try to buy land with good timber on it already. Many I have dealt with priced it as a price per acre for land based upon what they thought market was at the time. It didn’t matter if it had timber at $2,300 per acre on it or $200 per acre in timber they normally say land is going for “x” per acre here. So timber is a good investment if you buy right, but someone made really good points regarding the gain per year.
6. Pumpkins, Christmas Trees, Watermellons, sweet corn, and those types of crops are doable but they are labor intensive and you need to do the labor to make any money at it. Things like hay or alfalfa seem like good ideas, but only if you already have land and already cut hay. If not, there is NO money in it and there may not be money in it even then. In my area you can’t pay for the wear and tear on equipment for what you get from hay.
6. In my experience my best deals have been where I bought very large tracts and sold off smaller “parts” that I did not want. Maybe that is a couple acres for a house site, or a pice of AG ground a farmer needed to add to his place. You can almost get much much more per acre for those smaller tracts than you paid for the whole. Best advise is to take your time and find the right piece don’t rush in and buy because if the deal ain’t right the deal ain’t right.


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Lots of good info there WNUT. I understand #1 because if I had a year that I couldn't put in the extra time to make that income, I could be SOL. I would only be interested in selling this property again if I wanted to upgrade to something bigger and needed the money to do so. So the resale is an issue to me

 

[bwoods11]

Are those parcels lowland areas, like swampy or marshy pieces? I would think for a wooded rigde like this one is would get snatched up pretty quick for that.

If it is partly wooded, buildable that could make it much more valuable.

 

[H20fwler]

I know some on here have had bad experiences with the WRP program, a lot of that might be how your state is and how your DNR project manager is.
I'm fortunate enough to have a project manager that is very supportive and easy to get along with. Like others have said get in writing and agree beforehand what you can and cannot do with your land once you enroll it and help with the overall design and what will be planted on it.
For my project ground I am allowed to plant native species of shrubs/trees/groundcover after talking with project manager, I'm allowed to cut firewood, trim trails and shooting lanes, have a nice food plot, put as many stands up as I want, put up a shooting house if it's on skids, put up nest boxes, select harvest trees to open canopy every 20 years with managers approval, hunt and fish all we want, chase off trespassers and pay taxes.
I'm not allowed to build on it or farm it or spring mow. The state helped with two nice shallow wetland ponds and the initial tree/shrub/native grass plantings. I had input on shape/depth of ponds and where the spoil dirt was placed...although there are limits to how deep and the slope grade on ponds. I spray any cattails and reeds with a gly/aqua guard mix once or twice a summer so cattails are a non issue for me.
I am not into mowing, I am into raising bunnies/birds/deer/turkeys/bugs/quail on the place..my pasture got mowed the first two years to help the switch and bluestem crown and to keep initial weeds down, now I just mow a strip around the outside of shrub strips in August once so wife can walk her bluebird boxes and the boys and I can slip quiet to our stands.
It takes a different frame of mind having the state involved in having restrictions on your property...you can't think like a farmer. If you think habitat and what benefits all wildlife it is very easy to manage your land and get along with your biologist and turns the property into a paradise for you and wildlife. My project manager checks on mine a couple times a year walking it with me sometimes with other biologists and at least once a year random on his own. I email ideas and future projects with him that I an interested in and discuss how things are going a few times a year.

I didn't sign my place up to make money off it although it did pay off a large chunk of initial cost and got the ponds put in along with initial plantings. Everything that the state did I was going to do anyway, it was a win-win for me.
I recommend for anyone getting into a program to not enroll the whole property into it so that you still have ground to plant any type of orchard or put up a cabin or buildings on or do whatever you want with, that's what we did.