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Knowledge of Forest Certification Program needed

bat man said:
The auditors were convinced the MNDNR was capable of managing deer over-abundance through the deer goal setting process and appropriate regulations.
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I think the hunters of MN are less than convinced in the capabilities of the MN DNR to manage the deer herd. Did Merchant just admit that it was the DNR that took things too far, without any "hounding" from the certifying entities?
 
My read is any harvest (herd size) from 2007 on was fine for regeneration according to the audit. His ruse of saying they like his goals is pure speculative BS.

The audit says if there are too many deer for sustained forestry. No audit issues since 2006.
 
smsmith said:
It seems pretty obvious to me that we're never going to find "THE" smoking gun or "THE" boogeyman....because it isn't a singular entity/movement.

IMHO ALL of these have played a role:

CWD/bTB fear
Forestry influences
Ag/Farm Bureau influences
Insurance Industry influences
"Green" movement influences
Lack of hunter involvement/commitment/self advocacy


I'm still of the mind the only long term solution to this is...us...those guys and gals who love deer and hunting them. What that means is a change in mindset and most likely a change in the distribution of game...more and more being held on private, intensively managed lands and less and less on public lands.

Somebody else comes up with a better solution/idea...I'm all ears. I just don't see us "winning" a fight with all of the above who've played a role in the current situation.
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Good post. I guess I don't see it as a time to panic. We are currently setting new goals. Probably wont get the high numbers some want, unless you can manage your own land. But everything in life is a compromise.
 
"Lack of hunter involvement/commitment/self advocacy"

This must be fixed before anything can be done to combat the other causes on that list. Until the hunters unite to advocate their position, you will continue to get nowhere. Brooks has started this, but others need to get onboard to back him, and not just the guys on here, but the general hunting public. All the other groups mentioned are very organized and have a plan to drive their directive. The general hunting populace of MN, not so much.
 
Panic may be on the horizon. When some high school kids read a blog about the demise of deer in MN they emailed Steve Merchant, and he responded with he following:
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I appreciate your willingness to try to learn something about this topic. If you are interested there is a wealth of scientific literature on this subject.
Here is a good place to start- see http://blog.nature.org/science/2013/08/22/too-many-deer/
Steve
Steve Merchant
Wildlife Population and Regulation Program Manager
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources
Steve.merchant@state.mn.us
651-259-5220
 
bat man said:
Panic may be on the horizon. When some high school kids read a blog about the demise of deer in MN they emailed Steve Merchant, and he responded with he following:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate your willingness to try to learn something about this topic. If you are interested there is a wealth of scientific literature on this subject.
Here is a good place to start- see http://blog.nature.org/science/2013/08/22/too-many-deer/
Steve
Steve Merchant
Wildlife Population and Regulation Program Manager
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources
Steve.merchant@state.mn.us
651-259-5220
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That blog post has been popular as of late (unfortunately).
 
bowhunternw said:
Good post. I guess I don't see it as a time to panic. We are currently setting new goals. Probably wont get the high numbers some want, unless you can manage your own land. But everything in life is a compromise.
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It all depends on your deer numbers in the area where you reside. those with decent numbers at present have hope.

We have an area manager that wanted 7 or 8 doe permits per hunter as of 13 months ago. This is an area with about 5400 firearms hunters and an adult deer fall population of 7500 deer. 7500 deer comes from their model estimate. If you go by the aerial flyover, we have 4622 adult deer in the fall.

5400 hunters with 7 doe permits each is 37,800 potential doe permits plus free landowner tags not being added in.

I can see why you say not to panic, because you are in a different situation.

In my case, it is not panic, it is fight'n words with our DNR and the nonsense they are considering. The same area manager has ruined the Camp Ripley hunt to the point where local people no longer care to even apply for the draw. Yet the area manager has a different view than everyone else. He still feels there are too many deer in Camp.

No personal offense intended, my cousins hunt an area with plenty of deer and have no idea what I am talking about.

In simple words, we have more hunters than adult deer during our fall firearms hunt, and our manager would like to see 7 or more doe tags per hunter as we have too many deer.

I have corn foodlots that stand for two years. We do nto have too many deer.
 
sandbur said:
It all depends on your deer numbers in the area where you reside. those with decent numbers at present have hope.

We have an area manager that wanted 7 or 8 doe permits per hunter as of 13 months ago. This is an area with about 5400 firearms hunters and an adult deer fall population of 7500 deer. 7500 deer comes from their model estimate. If you go by the aerial flyover, we have 4622 adult deer in the fall.

5400 hunters with 7 doe permits each is 37,800 potential doe permits plus free landowner tags not being added in.

I can see why you say not to panic, because you are in a different situation.

In my case, it is not panic, it is fight'n words with our DNR and the nonsense they are considering. The same area manager has ruined the Camp Ripley hunt to the point where local people no longer care to even apply for the draw. Yet the area manager has a different view than everyone else. He still feels there are too many deer in Camp.

No personal offense intended, my cousins hunt an area with plenty of deer and have no idea what I am talking about.

In simple words, we have more hunters than adult deer during our fall firearms hunt, and our manager would like to see 7 or more doe tags per hunter as we have too many deer.

I have corn foodlots that stand for two years. We do nto have too many deer.
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You are correct maybe your population is currently so low that you don't even see a deer. Hunting was definitely poor last year, but I honestly feel that the two previous winters were hard on them. I remember they allowed emergency feeding in the NE in recent years. I guess I just feel that we are taking steps now to raise numbers, and will give them a chance. Now if in 5 years the number is still this low and they want to maintain or reduce herd then I would panic.
 
bowhunternw said:
You are correct maybe your population is currently so low that you don't even see a deer. Hunting was definitely poor last year, but I honestly feel that the two previous winters were hard on them. I remember they allowed emergency feeding in the NE in recent years. I guess I just feel that we are taking steps now to raise numbers, and will give them a chance. Now if in 5 years the number is still this low and they want to maintain or reduce herd then I would panic.
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Art has been in a panic for over five years already!! Many areas of the state have simply had too many tags issued. Those areas around Little Falls are among the worst.

"The Grand Scheme" to reduce the deer herd began about ten years ago. Since then the herd has been cut in half. Not by harsh winters.....but rather by too many tags issued by the DNR. Take the herd much lower in Northern MN......and the wolves will do to deer what they have done to moose IMO.
 
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As I examine the stakeholder team composition the % of forestry interests is huge. I am sure forest health regeneration etc is going to be a major discussion.

In preparing for the meetings (next week) I can't help but wonder what will be discussed from a forestry side.

MN has more acres in certified forests than any state in the nation, but we have only had one CAR (corrective action recommendation) from deer browse and that was back in 2006.

Audits conducted every year since then had never had the issue of too many deer surface. Seems a pretty decent argument for more deer since they are the 'authority' on sustainable forests?
 
Be careful, they may pull Alt in as a "ringer" to speak for them!:eek:;)
 
I had to run one more calculation. We have 8.47 rifle hunters per section and either 11.2 or 7.2 deer over 1.5 years of age in the fall population-2013 figures on hunter numbers and deer counts/estimates were before the worst of last winter.

These proposed doe tags are just insane.
I will give the stakeholder teams a chance and we have 5 or 6 very good people on our team. The pressure from hunters will need to continue or nothing will change. That is why we are pushing for an audit.
I am beginning to think I should give up bow hunting and just go fishing this fall. Why spend the thirty plus dollars?
 
sandbur said:
I am beginning to think I should give up bow hunting and just go fishing this fall. Why spend the thirty plus dollars?
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Landowner tag is a $1 ART. Good the whole year. If you kill a deer with horns you can cross tag it.
 
bat man said:
Landowner tag is a $1 ART. Good the whole year. If you kill a deer with horns you can cross tag it.
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wrong- Land owner tags are free.
 
sandbur said:
wrong- Land owner tags are free.
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Go buy one. It will cost you a dollar from the gas station.
 
Issuing Fee Sandbur..........ain't nothing free anymore!
 
All right, I will admit I am wrong. I never have bought one and never intend to.
 
I'm back at it tonight digging. I found some more interesting info. Nothing earth shattering just yet, but the puzzle pieces are starting to come together. I'll post my full findings before bed tonight...
 
I'm not ready to report out yet. Still trying to arrange everything I've found. What I have found particularly frustrating is the mind-boggling number of "groups" making policy recommendations or providing guidelines to other policy making bodies and their guidelines and how they fit into other policy making groups implementation of their guidelines to meet objectives set forth by guidelines of other groups. o_O
 
I'm starting a new thread to get this back out in the open. Look for "Minnesota Deer: The Search For Answers"
 
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