Introduced species

[S.T.Fanatic]

When it comes to whitetail forage what has been your experience with deer eating introduced (non native) plants? I have had poor results with deer eating turnips and the like but on the other hand have had great results with chicory. The reason I ask is I would like to plant some chestnut trees but do not want the added time and expense of planting several trees if the deer arent going to eat the nuts anyway. Might just be better off with apples since they have been growing on the landscape for hundreds of years.

What have been your experiences?

 

[chickenlittle]

Chestnuts were native to much of the country before being killed off by the blight. Chinese chestnuts and hybrids are simply blight resistant replacements. I would not worry about the nuts not being eaten. Pears, apples, and most crabspples are not native but valuable mast.

 

[trampledbyturtles]

Adapt or die

Food is food, eventually something will find it, an in short order I am guessing.

Just matters where on the scale of preferred food it ranks will determine the rate at which it is consumed.
In the case of the turnips, they probably just rank lower on the scale due to having better options present at that time.

Id plant them if they could survive in my zone.

 

[yoderjac]

When it comes to whitetail forage what has been your experience with deer eating introduced (non native) plants? I have had poor results with deer eating turnips and the like but on the other hand have had great results with chicory. The reason I ask is I would like to plant some chestnut trees but do not want the added time and expense of planting several trees if the deer arent going to eat the nuts anyway. Might just be better off with apples since they have been growing on the landscape for hundreds of years.

What have been your experiences?

Prior to the chestnut blight, chestnuts were the primary source of nuts for deer, not acorns in the home range of the chestnut. When deer don't eat a particular food, it is simply because they have found a "better" food source at that time. That may be "better" because it is peaking and more nutritious or "better" because it can be accessed with less perceived risk. Also, anytime a new food source is introduced into the habitat, it will take deer time to incorporate it. Some of their food selections are instinctive, but they also seem to try things at random. Many of the selections are learned behavior as old does lead fawns to food. The first few years I grew turnips deer didn't touch them. Then one year when we had a poor mast crop year, they were forced to exploit other foods. That got enough deer using turnips that they figured out they were a good food source. Over the next few years things changed and deer began using turnips more. It is now just another food source they have and use.

It is my understanding that deer that have both chestnuts and acorns available on a regular basis have a preference for chestnuts.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[j-bird]

I have no idea if the deer will eat my chestnuts. However I will try. Like was stated chestnut was a significant part of the North American forest landscape at one time. To be honest I like the idea of my efforts feeding deer long after I am gone. I also like the idea that they require little help and will grow mast fairly soon. I had my first nuts this year from 3 gallon trees I planted in 2014. I have not gone "all in" with chestnuts but I have plans to use them as part of my mast diversity plan for my property. Many plants we use for deer are actually introduced.....many clovers are not native. Many of the chestnuts we have today are not 100% native trees but it's better than nothing.

 

[rocksnstumps]

^^^^ Pretty much as above. Try a few if you want, if they survive they will get eaten. By me they didnt make it. Zone 4b maybe borderline 4a and the sandy loam soils I have. Oaks however do great. I would not go hog wild and plant a bunch until you see what happens or have reports from others near where you want to plant. There are several american chestnuts doing well in Madison WI at an arboretum which is zone 5a. The native range of chestnut did not go beyond Indiana back in the day.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Im also zone 4 but west of the mississsippi where chestnuts have never grown on the landscape unless introduced. Im not worried about being able to grow them as much as weather or not my deer will eat them and if i should just plant fruit trees.

 

[rocksnstumps]

I tried chinese chestnut a number of years ago which are supposed to be good up to zone 4. They went kaput in the first two years. Maybe stretching the zone is ok if you have optimal soils. I tried, they died, went back to planting many varieties of oaks. Again I would definitely try by you just would not plant tons at first.

 

[yoderjac]

Im also zone 4 but west of the mississsippi where chestnuts have never grown on the landscape unless introduced. Im not worried about being able to grow them as much as weather or not my deer will eat them and if i should just plant fruit trees.

There is no doubt they will eat them. They even eat dirt. There are not many plants they won't eat under the right circumstances. Perhaps you should consider whether volume comes into play here. In my turnip example above I planted multiple acres for multiple years before the deer turned on to them. If they are unknown to the local deer, they will need to go through that cycle. First, their instinct will be to try one as they happen to walk by simply because they smell like a nut. Enough deer need to do this and then teach fawns that it is a food source. That means you will need enough volume of nuts for this to really become a food source. It will take a long time for one or two trees to do this.

I think the question you should be asking yourself is "What are the chances, given your zone, you can get enough trees to thrive to produce enough nuts for deer to fully recognize it as an important food source"? Deer won't ignore a new food simply because it is not native to the area. Through a combination of genetic, epigenetic, trial and error, and learned behavior, they will learn what the best food sources are at any given time of year. Again, "best" encompasses a number of factors including perceived risk. They are quite adaptable creatures. In the suburbs, they have learned which exotic landscaping plants are the best and devour them. They can come from all kinds of places and deer had never seen them prior to their introduction. Given sufficient volume, there is no doubt deer will eventually use them as a food source. They are very high in carbs and deer seek this characteristic out prior to going into the winter.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

Soybeans - are from Asia.

Alfalfa - came from Asia and Iran.

Red Clover - came from Europe, Asia and Africa.

Chicory - originated in the Mediterranean.

Wheat - came from Asia.

Rye - came from Turkey.

I could go on, but I think you get my point....

I can't imagine deer not eating Chinese Chestnuts. They clean them up like candy here, and I know of no other chestnuts that were anywhere in the vicinity before I planted them on my place.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

The first 2 years we planted turnips and radishes at our camp, the deer didn't touch them. No ag around for miles. They hammer them now though. I think once they get a taste of something, and they see it's pretty good, they quickly adapt to the new food source. We're planting 4 or 5 Chinese chestnuts this spring too. Deer will find and eat them.

 

[sandbur]

Two seasons back, I had a doe fawn coming through the woods and she was selecting the top few green leaves off of young buckthorn.


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[S.T.Fanatic]

I get what you guys are saying but... The AG crops that NH referred to have been on the landscape for well over a hundred years so even to an ancient whitetail they are "Native" The same can be said about apple trees.

I think YJ may have hit the nail on the head about planting enough of them for the deer to actually pay any attention to them. IF I go down that road it will more than likely take several years of planting because of lac of expendable funds. (I know in the long run they will be a cheaper investment however)

My skepticism comes from my experience with turnips and the like. I have been planting them for over ten years and they still dont seem to pay much attention to them. The plots are in high traffic areas near bedding areas also so its not like im trying to pull deer into an area they dont want to be in.

The jury is still out on sugar beets for me but I will continue to plant them in a different location each year for rotational reasons and to give them several years to hopefully learn to like them. (providing I can keep getting my hands on them)

I am very tempted to just plant ALL my plots into soybeans because I know the deer love them but I dont see that being a good idea for nutrient cycling and soil building.

I will try upload a picture of the area I am considering planting the trees in and see what you guys think.

In the end nothing ventured nothing gained i guess.

 

[tynimiller]

I am very tempted to just plant ALL my plots into soybeans because I know the deer love them but I dont see that being a good idea for nutrient cycling and soil building.

I will try upload a picture of the area I am considering planting the trees in and see what you guys think.

In the end nothing ventured nothing gained i guess.

Incorporate overseeding into the beans and you most definitely could achieve GREAT soil building and nutrient cycling, and even without tilling!

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

The picture is of the central finger on one of my family’s properties that I hunt/manage.

The areas that are outlined in black are established plots that have been in place for several years.

My uncle and I have been working on thinning out the woods in this area (mainly killing boxelder trees) to create better bedding. I believe the next step will to remove what little buckthorn there is followed by mature hickory and maple trees. Hopefully within the next few years we will have it opened up enough to be able to carry a decent controlled burn through the wooded area to stimulate grasses and Forbes to grow.

The area in blue is where I was considering starting my orchard of apple pear and chestnut trees (will take several years to achieve)

I didn’t outline it in the picture but this next year we want to build a permanent shooting house on the grassy strip to the west of the blue area. I have a spot picked out that would be about a 125 yrd shot to the closest food plot that I would like to save for late muzzleloader season (last week of November first week of December). The problem with brassicas and hunting for me is they don’t touch them till February. That is the reason I like soybeans.

This area currently isn’t set up well for hunting due to the location of the plots and the bedding but it is what I have to work with and the reason I want a blind in an easy to access location with consideration to the prevailing winds during that time of year. I figure fruit and nut trees will only make the location that much better.

This area is used as a sanctuary more than anything because of difficult exit from stand due to the plots but I believe the shooting house will fix that for a spot that is left alone until the late season.

Thoughts?


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[S.T.Fanatic]

Incorporate overseeding into the beans and you most definitely could achieve GREAT soil building and nutrient cycling, and even without tilling!

I already do this but dont think id get a good stand of beans with the TNM technique.

Looks like I need to start a property tour thread!

 

[tynimiller]

I already do this but dont think id get a good stand of beans with the TNM technique.

Looks like I need to start a property tour thread!

Two things, I meant you don't have to till/disturb soil to overseed, love that you already do this that is great for the soil.

Secondly, YES start a tour thread, I love reading everyones! Such a great source of what others do or don't do, success or failure with...everything helps everyone.

 

[j-bird]

S.T.F. - if you plant beans you don't have to throw and mow. You simply plant your beans earlier or plant an earlier maturity variety. Then broadcast wheat, rye, turnips and or radishes into the dried down beans and the rain will drive the seed into the ground. Its a great way to add forage to an existing plot AND its a great insurance policy AND a way to introduce the deer to other forages. If you want to plant a grove/orchard of chestnut go for it. I am switching to crab apples vs apples simply because they will be easier to take care of.....also consider pears and other fruits as well, or consider other hard mast trees that may take a bit more time. I see people planting all sorts of things for deer that would be considered "non-traditional". Some folks grow watermelons, pumpkins, mulberry, hedge and all sort of things all for the deer to consume that are a little "outside the box".

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

What I do now with my "spring" plantings is plant beans, sugar beets, and or corn memorial day weekend due to work constraints and over seed with rye and whatnot all labor day weekend.

 

[H20fwler]

I'm in a high agriculture area of rotated corn/beans/wheat with mixed hardwood stands scattered around.
Chestnuts/apples/pears/hazelnuts all get ate up by deer and other wildlife in my area and weren't really "native" to my place, they are more like long term projects for me. Brassicas/clovers/chicory/trefoil that are more like fast foods that weren't on my place before I planted them and the deer and other wildlife eat them up too.

I didn't have any cranberry/button brush/little crab apples/red osier willows/pines until I put them out either and deer and lots of wildlife forage off them too.....it's all part of the habitat chain. I figure the more options I can ad the better it is for everything, and I just enjoy doing it. Besides seeing more of the desired wildlife like deer/turkeys/bunny's the ripple effect has been seeing so many more varieties of birds/frogs/insects and everything else thriving on the stuff I've put in.

It took deer a couple years to turn on to chicory on my place, now they tear it up...they never have gone after radishes like they do sugar beets. Chinese chestnuts grow better for me than the Dunstan's.