I need info on top working apples

[j-bird]

So I am sure it has been discussed before, but I am going to ask any way. What advice and information do you all have regarding top working a fruit tree....crab apple/apple in particular?

I have an ornamental crab the produces fine, but produces the real small fruit that only the birds seem to eat (pea size). Its a good mature tree big around as a 2-liter bottle. I want to turn this tree into a tree with all sorts of different apples and crab apple varieties on it. I have scion options of other apples/crab apples that I already have.

My big question is....do I simply lop off the entire top, leaving nothing but a trunk and then graft there? Or am I better off cutting back to decent sized limbs and grafting there? My thinking is to cut back to significant limbs and graft there simply because it will be more grafts and thus a better chance of success. I am also concerned about kill the entire tree. It won't be a huge loss...but not something I am setting out to accomplish. If I was to do that, I'd cut it down to a stump and just let the deer browse the new shoots that would grow....

 

[chickenlittle]

It depends on the tree's structure, how you've pruned it and how you are going to prune it.

I would only cut off the main leader if you were really unhappy with what was above it and want to start over.

If you have large branches coming off the trunk at good angles, spacing and above browse height, I'd cut those branches off as short stubs and bark or cleft graft onto those.

Cut those a bit farther out where they further branch and you can graft more new varieties to it. But you leave more original crab that will push buds and you are more likely to remove a grafted limb completely later if you do some aggressive pruning.

Apples are tough. Don't be afraid of major surgery. It's got a huge root system that will push new growth.

 

[Native Hunter]

I agree with the above. I will add that if your grafts are successful, you are going to be shocked at how fast and long they grow on a tree that big. By the end of the first season I’ve seen trees put back 75% of the growth you cut off. That’s fine unless you have a bad wind storm like I did one year. It was enough to break off a bunch of my grafts while they were still tender at the base.

Since that time I have started bracing the grafts with cane (native bamboo) sticks and duct tape until the next spring. That took care of it and I never lost another one.

Good luck

 

[Native Hunter]

When I was out working today, I passed by the tree below and thought of this thread. This is a big mature crab that I topworked about 3 years ago. It was exactly like you described - tiny little pea sized bird apples. I changed it over to a wild apple from New York. This tree had a big fork at just the right height to graft, and I grafted both forks - leaving none of old top.

As you can see, it is completely healed. But if you look closely you can still see the graft locations. I bark grafted and put 3 or 4 scions on each fork. They all lived.

 

[DJN]

I’m planning to do the exact same thing to this old ornamental crab. It’s at the back edge of our yard and has been relatively ignored for a long time. I have 7 varieties of limbertwig scion on order to put on here (as well as 20+ other varieties to top work numerous wild crabs around the farm). The apple bug bit me hard!!

 

[Barndog56]

Head over to the Skillcult channel on YouTube and search for 'frankentree'. There'll be 5 or 6 videos, and after watching them you can decide just how to attack this.

 

[James P. Bipps]

Agree with the above. Look at Skilcult videos. I was a complete rookie at grafting and frameworking/topworking last year, but was very successful using mostly cleft grafts. Some trees I’d leave a nurse branch and others I cut the original tree branches to a good frame...properly spaced branches and simply grafted to stubs . I was aggressive in cutting back the original tree to stubs and converted several crabs to better deer and people varieties of apple trees. This year I’ll convert more to cider varieties.

 

[White Birch Farm]

The big piece I would add here, that most people never even remotely consider when responding, is...it depends on your personality!

If you have a personality that manifests itself in a desire for clean, well shaped trees (single leader, good crotch angles, good scaffold spacing) then taking the tree down to the trunk and graft a single variety makes the most sense. Do a few bark grafts and then select the single best one after they have established. However, if you dont mind having a more bushy more unkept tree, then keep as much as the existing frame as possible and graft away with all kinds of different scions.

Personally, I lean to the former as I think you are more likely to get a more productive tree with a longer lifespan, but a lot of it comes down to how you maintain either style.

 

[williams111]

I cant recall where I read this, but I was looking for the same solution as you for a big tree (bigger then 2 liter bottle) that wasn't producing anything useful for the wildlife. Last winter I made a small cut in the tree with the chainsaw, roughly 6" long and 2" deep. The cut was roughly 3 ft off the ground. From what I recall what I read said that the tree should put out some new growth from that point. Then the plan was to graft to that new growth and let it grow for a year. Then come back the following year and if the graft was successful cut off the old trunk above where the new growth emerged. This should allow for a whip and tongue graft. I have not been back to that tree to see if it did put up any new growth from the wound or not so the verdict is still out on this one. If it did not I will likely top work it and graft it at that point. I'm not out much as this tree isn't producing anything at this point. I have seen it from a distance numerous times this last year and did not see any fruit although I have seen flowers so this could also be a pollination issue. I need to get closer to see if it put on any new growth from the wound. There are trees nearby that are not to flowering age yet so I may graft to the new growth if there is some and wait a few years to see if pollination is the issue with the original tree.

 

[j-bird]

Thanks for the feedback.... I’ll check out the videos. I am not worried about the form of the tree.... I’m worried about results not it being pretty. I think I’ll cut it back to the main branches and hit it with grafts of all the other apples and crabs I have. Then see what takes and what doesn’t. If it doesn’t so well... I’ll cut it into a shrub and let the deer browse it.

 

[R.E. Gould]

I once cut a very healthy seedling tree back to branch stubs, successfully grafted a number of varieties in, then had the whole thing killed by fireblight the next year, which just loved all that young vigorous growth the tree sent out.

I have 3 trees with over 40 varieties worked in, which I did by grafting into water sprouts in good locations. I'd definitely recommend this approach, rather than the major surgery. You'd be amazed at how fast and vigorously they can grow. If grafts don't work out, you're not left with some ugly amputee. Hardest part ends up being having to cut out very healthy, but redundant grafts.

If you're going to spray, you might want try to keep them all in the same pollination group. I didn't, but wish I had kept all the early ones on one tree, the late ones on another, etc.

Here's a RI Greening that was grafted into a water sprout in 2018, then tied down in 2019. They can grow 4-5 feet that first year. If that happens, tying them down is a good way to get them to stop and send out lateral growth and spurs.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have scions that only seem to grow 4-5 inches per year. Grafting elsewhere doesn't seem to be much help.