Help with seedlings

[mthompson]

I have a handful of seedlings started again this year, and some are starting to look like how my oaks & chestnuts did last winter before they all died...tips browned, leaves yellowing.

I noticed a couple fungus gnats flying around (last year they caused major root damage on most things), so I'm going to treat with some Bti in a couple days when it delivered. I have been watering with Worm compost tea or water when the pots are really dry. I'm using a professional mix (C/20), with a bit of compost and some osmocote mixed in, and they are under some t5 ho bulbs.


So far only dwarf chinkapin oaks seem to be having problems (4 of 6). I also have Chinkapin, Persimmons, and some apples that just germinated. Last year, everything was lost; burr, red, white, am. chestnuts, walnuts, buckeyes... Everything. Nothing had roots left after the gnats!

Thoughts?

 

[John-W-WI]

I wish I had a suggestion for you. I'll be curious to see what others have to say.

I'm guessing the "missing roots" part from last year is the cause. Can the gnats cause that?

I'll be watching with interest.

-John

 

[mthompson]

Yeah John, the larvae of the fungus gnats live in soil and eat organic matter... Especially young tender roots. When I pulled the buckeyes last year, their 1/4" thick tap roots were opened like a banana and hundreds of tiny white slimy larvae were eating their way up the centers.

I just received my Jake kit today, and don't want to start those until I get the gnats dealt with. I also have a 72 hole plug tray with a bunch of crabs and apples that are starting to germinate... Don't want all this to be for naught again!

 

[Tree Spud]

Growing anything in a controlled environment encourages different problems than an external environment may eliminate. An example of controlling moisture to a high point to promote growth, also encourages disease, pests, mold, bacteria and other issues.

How much air movement is across them? Natural light, night to day temp changes, etc. If the soil is too pure, where are the counter active bacteria 7 organisms?

JMHO ... would move them outside spot as soon as possible, larger pots with natural soil, let them get some stress from the environment and transplant as soon as possible.

 

[John B]

Im sure someone will come along with better advice but a quick google search just said to let the soil dry out between watering and they will go away on their own. Also said you could blow air across the soil (fan) to help dry it out quicker.

 

[mthompson]

Growing anything in a controlled environment encourages different problems than an external environment may eliminate. An example of controlling moisture to a high point to promote growth, also encourages disease, pests, mold, bacteria and other issues.

How much air movement is across them? Natural light, night to day temp changes, etc. If the soil is too pure, where are the counter active bacteria 7 organisms?

JMHO ... would move them outside spot as soon as possible, larger pots with natural soil, let them get some stress from the environment and transplant as soon as possible.

Moving outside is 2+ months away here, we just got a fresh 10" of snow yesterday! I use the compost (my own) in the mix and the worm casting tea to help give the soilless mix some life.

I had no choice but to plant in Jan/Feb since everything was germinating in my fridge....Usually try to wait until now through April for indoor starting of vegetables. I never had fungus gnats until I started trees last year. Use the same mix and watering, everything the same as veggies (except the rm-18)....Never had problems with any seedling veggies dying off indoors over 10 years, sometimes over 4 months indoors.

 

[mthompson]

Im sure someone will come along with better advice but a quick google search just said to let the soil dry out between watering and they will go away on their own. Also said you could blow air across the soil (fan) to help dry it out quicker.

I know for sure this not in all cases and read a lot of people on garden websites recommending it. Last year the larvae were still alive eating the tap roots after a month of no water in rm-18 cups (plants were dead, so I stopped watering and never got around to emptying them out)... The soil was as dry as could be, save for oven drying it.

I'm just wondering if the gnats could cause the brown/yellow leaves (if people know from experience) or have a state extension sheet that shows what to look for? I couldn't find much for leaf damage, just roots and whatnot... Stuff that you can look at when you have thousands of plants to sacrifice some... not 6 dco.

Maybe the Bti will work magic and clear it all up.

 

[DLH]

I believe I have had the same problems you are describing when I worked in a greenhouse in college. Seems like I used mosquito dunks in a 5 galling bucket of water to water my plants and that killed the gnats. I believe that is more than likely the same thing as BTI.

 

[yoderjac]

My thought is a water issue. My guess is you are watering too often but it also could be the water.

1) Are those 18s in the picture?
2) What medium are you using?
3) Are you using rain water, well water, or city water. If well water is it before any water softener?

I have found that water accounts for a large number of issues folks have starting seedlings indoors. My suggestions:

1) Use 18s with a well drained professional mix (Promix, Fafard, etc;)
2) Use rain water (or melted snow) as your water source. Most mixes are adjusted to neutral pH and so is city water (which may also have salts that can build it). Chestnuts and AC want to see acidic soil. With a neutral pH, they can't absorb some of the nutrients they need. Rain water is acidic and slowly adjusts the pH of your medium.
3) Water by weight - Get a feel for the weight of an 18 filled with promix. Then saturate it with water slowly allowing water to fully infiltrate the container until it comes running out of the lowest holes in the 18. Get a feel for the weight of the 18 now. Consider the first weight as empty and the second as full. When you water, always completely saturate the container. As seedlings grow water will infiltrate more slowly. Just add water slowly and let it infiltrate until it drains out of the lowest holes in the 18. The 18 is now full of water. Don't water again until the weight of container is down to about 1/4 tank. If you see leaves on AC or chestnuts begin to droop (or apples begin to wilt), you've gone slightly too long. Water immediately any you will be fine. Don't water on a schedule or by amount. Yes, experienced folks can get watering right using other approaches, but it took me quite a few years to get a feel for when water is needed and my tendency (as for most) was to water too frequently. If you are not using 18s with a well drained mix watering becomes much more chancy because water does not infiltrate as well.

Chestnuts and AC don't tolerate wet feet. They can be saturated, but they need to dry out between watering. Apple seedlings on the other hand can handle wet feet better.

As for fungus gnats. They are more of a nuisance than a problem for most seedlings. When I first started, I had fungus gnats. They are one sign of watering too frequently and not letting medium dry out enough. I tried what others suggested and crumbled mosquitoe dunks and sprinkled it on my medium. I also hung some brightly colored electrical tape strips from my lights and the adults would get stuck to it, and finally I ran a bug zapper indoors. With all three methods used, control of fungus gnats was only fair at best. I used to use Sevin to deal with Japanese beetles and other pests in the outdoor stage. Last year, I decided to try permethrin. It was just as effective as Sevin but lasted at least twice as long before retreatment was needed. This year, I decided to spray to top of my medium with it after planting nuts. I got extremely few fungus gnats this year. So, I'd consider permethrin. It won't hurt the seedlings.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[mthompson]

My thought is a water issue. My guess is you are watering too often but it also could be the water.

1) Are those 18s in the picture?

- Yes, I'm using RM-18's for all of these.
​

2) What medium are you using?

- I am using Jolly Gardener Pro-Line C/25 greenhouse mix, plus I add some compost (maybe 10%) and a small amount of Osmocote.​

3) Are you using rain water, well water, or city water? If well water is it before any water softener?

- I am using well water, pulled off before softener. I can test pH, and maybe I should neutralize with some acid (I know we have hard water). I use the method you described for watering, I even physically weighed them last year for a while until I got a handle on how long I needed to run the pump sprayer (by counting in my head) on each pot to get to the desired total weight.
If it was water, I think I'd be seeing all the same species with similar issues, not just half of them?​

My initial thought last year was heat because the lights were closer and all of them were on (and they do get hot)....but I have the fixture about 36" above now, and only half the lamps on. I need to get a smaller pair of oscillating clamp fans, as the fan I used last year (regarding the heat thoughts) was messing with the ballasts and making the lamps fizzle out and barely run.

 

[yoderjac]

1) Are those 18s in the picture?

- Yes, I'm using RM-18's for all of these.
​

2) What medium are you using?

- I am using Jolly Gardener Pro-Line C/20 greenhouse mix, plus I add some compost (maybe 10%) and a small amount of Osmocote.​

3) Are you using rain water, well water, or city water? If well water is it before any water softener?

- I am using well water, pulled off before softener. I can test pH, and maybe I should neutralize with some acid (I know we have hard water). I use the method you described for watering, I even physically weighed them last year for a while until I got a handle on how long I needed to run the pump sprayer (by counting in my head) on each pot to get to the desired total weight.
If it was water, I think I'd be seeing all the same species with similar issues, not just half of them?​

My initial thought last year was heat because the lights were closer and all of them were on (and they do get hot)....but I have the fixture about 36" above now, and only half the lamps on. I need to get a smaller pair of oscillating clamp fans, as the fan I used last year (regarding the heat thoughts) was messing with the ballasts and making the lamps fizzle out and barely run.

Perhaps that mix is not well enough drained or designed to retain water. Light energy diminishes with the distance squared. So, I like to use inexpensive fluorescent shop lights rigged to adjust close to seedlings. I like to keep them 2" - 4" above the seedlings. I use express trays so I can reorganize cells based on height allowing me to hang lights at an angle when necessary to keep them about the same distance from all the seedlings. I run fans very sparingly. Perhaps 15 minutes per day.

While it could be a number of things, those brown leaf tips make me think it is related to water. Without testing your water chemistry, you don't now what is in the well water or the pH. Rain water is acidic. Well water may or may not be acidic. My first thought is the frequency of watering.

If you can keep an eye on seedlings daily, I'd try stop watering them and watch them. See how long it takes for the leaves to slightly droop and then give them a good dose of water. If that time is much longer than your frequency of watering it could be the issue. I would love to be able to time things so watering occurs 1 day before the leaves droop. Don't do this if you can't monitor them closely. If the leave droop and you don't water within a day or so, you can lose seedlings.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

One more thing to watch for is new growth. If you see a new healthy growth flush above the older leaves, you have probably solved the problem. If newer leaves show similar problems, the problem likely persists.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[mthompson]

Perhaps that mix is not well enough drained or designed to retain water.

This mix drains very fast (seems like >30% perlite, and mostly large bark)....I first posted C/20, but it's actually C/25...from the interwebs:

"Pro-Line C/25

This mix of processed pine bark fines, Canadian sphagnum peat, coarse perlite and
medium vermiculite is geared toward growing perennials. C/25 is a coarse texture mix
that allows for good air space and helps promote proper drainage.

C/25 is an appropriate mix for: Flowering and foliage plants, hanging basket, roses
and garden mums, nursery containers and interior planters

Average density 16-20 lbs/cubic foot"


​

Light energy diminishes with the distance squared. So, I like to use inexpensive fluorescent shop lights rigged to adjust close to seedlings. I like to keep them 2" - 4" above the seedlings.

I have an 8-bulb T5 fixture, and it's about the size of a 4-bulb T8....so it puts out way more light than the shop lights I used to use. This fixture is designed for indoor hydro units and year-round indoor food production.

I use express trays so I can reorganize cells based on height allowing me to hang lights at an angle when necessary to keep them about the same distance from all the seedlings. I run fans very sparingly. Perhaps 15 minutes per day.

These are express trays as well....I used to turn my fan on when I was in the room watering or planting or messing around then turn it off....not sure what I'm gonna do since it was messing with my lights.

While it could be a number of things, those brown leaf tips make me think it is related to water. Without testing your water chemistry, you don't now what is in the well water or the pH. Rain water is acidic. Well water may or may not be acidic. My first thought is the frequency of watering.

If you can keep an eye on seedlings daily, I'd try stop watering them and watch them. See how long it takes for the leaves to slightly droop and then give them a good dose of water. If that time is much longer than your frequency of watering it could be the issue. I would love to be able to time things so watering occurs 1 day before the leaves droop. Don't do this if you can't monitor them closely. If the leave droop and you don't water within a day or so, you can lose seedlings.

I have tested my water (my background is Aquaculture, and I have access to a full suite of water quality tests...more than this requires anyway)...hardness is around 280 mg/L, pH is around 8, no Na, low N.

I haven't watered in 5 days...persimmons were dry yesterday, will probably be wilted when I get home tonight....I want to hold off until I can water with the Bti, which will be here tomorrow. The Chinkapin were starting to dry a bit, and the Dwarf chinks were still damp.....I am assuming that the Dwarf roots are getting chewed, and no transpiration is occurring (thus not drying like the others).

 

[yoderjac]

Everything looks reasonable except that pH. I'm not sure it is a big factor in 18s. I found most of my chestnut/ac trees in 18s will tolerate city water. I think this is because much of the energy/nutrients are coming from the nut. I find the pH related problems tend to occur at later stages when they are in larger containers.

Best of luck. Looks like you are generally doing things the right way. Is this issue with a significant percentage of your trees. There are always a few trees that will have issues for one reason or another. I just want to make sure the problem is systemic before pulling your hair out rather than an isolated issue with a few trees.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[mthompson]

Best of luck. Looks like you are generally doing things the right way. Is this issue with a significant percentage of your trees. There are always a few trees that will have issues for one reason or another. I just want to make sure the problem is systemic before pulling your hair out rather than an isolated issue with a few trees.

Right now, it seems to be just the dwarf chinkapins...some of these look worse than others. But I know this same thing started with just one species last year and things got worse and worse. Mostly just brainstorming with you guys and trying to figure it out.

I see pictures in the other tree-growing threads here, and I can't figure out how those trees thrive so well and mine just putter out! I can grow veggies and houseplants just fine, but trees have me puzzled. I can easily adjust pH to 6-6.5 with a few drops of acid (I do this for hide tanning pickles to 1-2 pH all the time), so I will start to do that.

Thanks,

MT

 

[yoderjac]

Right now, it seems to be just the dwarf chinkapins...some of these look worse than others. But I know this same thing started with just one species last year and things got worse and worse. Mostly just brainstorming with you guys and trying to figure it out.

I see pictures in the other tree-growing threads here, and I can't figure out how those trees thrive so well and mine just putter out! I can grow veggies and houseplants just fine, but trees have me puzzled. I can easily adjust pH to 6-6.5 with a few drops of acid (I do this for hide tanning pickles to 1-2 pH all the time), so I will start to do that.

Thanks,

MT

What do you mean by dwarf chinkapins? Do you mean dwarf chinkipin oaks or Allegheny chinquapins or Dwarf Asian Chestnuts (Seguins)?

Now that I look at the picture again, I think you mean DCO. While I did not have brown leaf tips like that when I grew DCO last year, I have some odd spotting and coloration of the leaves, but none of it seemed to affect the plant development. DCO are said to be slow, but by the end of the summer, mine were pretty good sized for DCO:

This picture was taken in mid September just before I planted them in the field.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[mthompson]

What do you mean by dwarf chinkapins? Do you mean dwarf chinkipin oaks or Allegheny chinquapins or Dwarf Asian Chestnuts (Seguins)?

Now that I look at the picture again, I think you mean DCO.

Yes, dwarf chinkapin oaks... I received them in a trade on the seed exchange thread. I also received some regular Chinkapin oaks, Persimmons, and apples.

Plus I collected a bunch of different crab apples from around here...at work we have dozens of crab varieties, and the deer and other wildlife will use each variety at different times throughout winter....so I grabbed different ones that I know deer use for sure (some varieties, nothing eats them).

It was a no-acorn year in 2016 everywhere I checked around here for reds and Whites of several species.

 

[yoderjac]

Yes, dwarf chinkapin oaks... I received them in a trade on the seed exchange thread. I also received some regular Chinkapin oaks, Persimmons, and apples.

Plus I collected a bunch of different crab apples from around here...at work we have dozens of crab varieties, and the deer and other wildlife will use each variety at different times throughout winter....so I grabbed different ones that I know deer use for sure (some varieties, nothing eats them).

It was a no-acorn year in 2016 everywhere I checked around here for reds and Whites of several species.

That does make a difference. When you said chinkapin I was thinking in the chestnut family. I've only grown DCO once, so others might have a better handle on them specifically.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[John-W-WI]

(I do this for hide tanning pickles to 1-2 pH all the time)

Way off topic here, I hope you don't mind me asking. What the heck is hide tanning pickles? Someone is going to laugh at me, but I had to ask.

-John

 

[mthompson]

Way off topic here, I hope you don't mind me asking. What the heck is hide tanning pickles? Someone is going to laugh at me, but I had to ask.

-John

I do pretty quick and generic fur-on hide tanning... Mostly for fly tying material. The "pickle" is a step that locks the hair in the hide. Just submerge the whole hide in the pickle solution which is water, oxalic acid to pH 1-2, and salt.... Roll and flip the hide every once in a while, and keep the pH between 1-2.

Then neutralize with baking soda in the water to pH of 5, dry slightly and then I use a 24hr brush-on tanning oil.

Hardest part of getting a soft fur-on hide is "breaking" the hide, which is physically stretching and raking the leather over a board or something to loosen and release the fibers inside the leather.

Simple but effective for what I need.