Grafting question

[Sportsman94]

I have been reading through a lot of old threads on here and have seen that when people graft onto a larger rootstock they will often put two scions on opposite sides of each other. What is the reason for that? Has anyone ever tried to do that with two different types of scion wood (perhaps with different drop dates) so you could get two trees in one and maybe extend your drop times? Also, I heard people mention that only certain cultivars will work to graft on callery/Bradford pears. Does anyone have a list of what works with them? I have a handful of these pears on a property I hunt that I would love to turn into useful trees


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[Native Hunter]

I have been reading through a lot of old threads on here and have seen that when people graft onto a larger rootstock they will often put two scions on opposite sides of each other. What is the reason for that?
I think most people do this to increase the possibility of success. More scions = higher probability that one will take. You can train it back to one leader over time if so desired, but be careful and don't cut back too quickly.

Has anyone ever tried to do that with two different types of scion wood (perhaps with different drop dates) so you could get two trees in one and maybe extend your drop times?
Yes, I have successfully done that many times. But forum members here will accuse you of being an alien. Just Kidding...................................

Also, I heard people mention that only certain cultivars will work to graft on callery/Bradford pears. Does anyone have a list of what works with them? I have a handful of these pears on a property I hunt that I would love to turn into useful trees
I'm not aware of any that does not work. All of the European Pear Varieties I have grafted to Callery have worked just fine.

 

[Sportsman94]

NativeHunter, a one stop shop for all my answers! Thanks so much. This will be my first time trying to graft if I can get ahold of some scions. Excited to see if it works for me


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[yoderjac]

Native hunter is spot on. Also keep in mind that it depends on the type of grafting you are doing. When W&T grafting prior to planting a tree (bench grafting), you use a single scion and match the diameter to the root stock. There are other forms of bench grafting like a z-graft that lets you bench graft when the scions are slightly different diameters from the rootstock. Generally, multiple scions are used in different forms of field grafting. That is grafting to an already established tree in the field. Multiple scions are often used in bark grafting or cleft grafting. As Native hunter says, this is generally done to maximize success. For example, I bark graft native persimmon trees growing on my farm with female scions from trees with known drop times. This can convert non-producing male trees to female producing trees. I target trees in 1"-4" diameter range. On smaller diameter trees I will use one or two scions and as many as 3 or 4 scions on larger trees.

Sometimes a scion will leaf out and look good but eventually die. So, I let all scions grow that first growing season. Trees this large have a well established root system and can easily push multiple scions. With persimmons, you need to go back every week or so to remove water sprouts after grafting or the tree will push them instead. If I use a single scion on a large diameter tree, it can almost push that scion too fast. Even with multiple scions, I need to stake them so they don't flop over before they harden.

If you leave multiple scions grow when bark grafting, you can have problems later in the life of the tree. Say you leave two. You now have a tree that splits rather than a central leader. When the tree gets large, weight from the fruit can tend to want to make the tree split. So, as soon as the scions harden and the tree goes dormant that first winter, I pick the best scion as the central leader and prune the rest.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

I topworked (bark grafted) an apple tree once that had about a 4 inch trunk. I literally covered it with scions of about 6 different varieties. Every one of them took and it was the craziest looking thing you had ever seen. However, it was growing well, healing well, and looking very healthy looking. The next year I decided to thin out the scions a little - which was a big mistake. Not long after I did that, the tree started dying, and it went down quickly.

What I should have done was left everything growing and slowly trained that tree to an open center - as many apple trees are trained in other countries. I like a central leader, but it isn't absolutely necessary.

 

[yoderjac]

I topworked (bark grafted) an apple tree once that had about a 4 inch trunk. I literally covered it with scions of about 6 different varieties. Every one of them took and it was the craziest looking thing you had ever seen. However, it was growing well, healing well, and looking very healthy looking. The next year I decided to thin out the scions a little - which was a big mistake. Not long after I did that, the tree started dying, and it went down quickly.

What I should have done was left everything growing and slowly trained that tree to an open center - as many apple trees are trained in other countries. I like a central leader, but it isn't absolutely necessary.

I don't know the answer to that. My bark grafting work is primarily on persimmons and most of my bench grafting has been with apples, jujube, and persimmon. I did do some bark grafting of apples, but it was an unusual situation. I started apples from seed and planted them as rootstock. The next year, I top worked them with known varieties. I tried a number of techniques, including bark grafting. Some took, some failed. None of the trees died. Once it was clear the grafts failed I just let water sprouts grow and sustain the tree until the next season when I could try again.

Chickenlittle or the professor might have an answer for you. I do know that persimmons can be pruned to an open center, but two scions directly across from each other is problematic in the long run with persimmons. Of course, persimmons are a very disease resistant tree as they are native to my area. Many apples are subject to a variety of diseases. It may be related to your pruning or just coincidence.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

I don't know the answer to that. My bark grafting work is primarily on persimmons and most of my bench grafting has been with apples, jujube, and persimmon. I did do some bark grafting of apples, but it was an unusual situation. I started apples from seed and planted them as rootstock. The next year, I top worked them with known varieties. I tried a number of techniques, including bark grafting. Some took, some failed. None of the trees died. Once it was clear the grafts failed I just let water sprouts grow and sustain the tree until the next season when I could try again.

Chickenlittle or the professor might have an answer for you. I do know that persimmons can be pruned to an open center, but two scions directly across from each other is problematic in the long run with persimmons. Of course, persimmons are a very disease resistant tree as they are native to my area. Many apples are subject to a variety of diseases. It may be related to your pruning or just coincidence.

Thanks,

Jack

I already have the answer. I have trees trained both ways, and both ways work just fine. Open center is common in Europe.

PS: And when you choose the right varieties, you get nice apples without spraying.

 

[yoderjac]

I thought your question was why the tree died, not open center versus central leader. Both work. Open center is often used and maintained to get more light into commercial trees and improve production. I like central leader for wildlife trees. The issues I was referring to with persimmons was the poor crotch angle created when leaving both or multiple scions. I know it is an issue with persimmons. I don't have enough field grafting experience with apples to know for sure if this crotch angle presents a long-term problem with them, but I presume it does.

 

[Native Hunter]

I thought your question was why the tree died, not open center versus central leader. Both work. Open center is often used and maintained to get more light into commercial trees and improve production. I like central leader for wildlife trees. The issues I was referring to with persimmons was the poor crotch angle created when leaving both or multiple scions. I know it is an issue with persimmons. I don't have enough field grafting experience with apples to know for sure if this crotch angle presents a long-term problem with them, but I presume it does.

I didn't ask a question in my post. I stated why the tree died. The tree died because I thinned the scions too soon. It was fine until I thinned the scions. Go back and read my post - I haven't edited it. There was never a question asked.........

 

[yoderjac]

I didn't ask a question in my post. I stated why the tree died. The tree died because I thinned the scions too soon. It was fine until I thinned the scions. Go back and read my post - I haven't edited it. There was never a question asked.........

My bad. I misread the post as "What should have I done..." rather than "What I should have done....". I just went back and reread it.

 

[Native Hunter]

My bad. I misread the post as "What should have I done..." rather than "What I should have done....". I just went back and reread it.

No problem Jack. No harm, no fowl. I was just confused at where you were going with it. Have a good day.