Frost seeding/over seeding timing?

[Derek Reese 29]

So got a bunch of clover, chicory and alfalfa to broadcast in the next month and a half or so..wondering about timing on certain things..I plan to frost seed some Alice, domino white, alsike, WI and Dutch white clover in about the next 2 weeks (I’m in Northern PA if that helps). Then I also have some chicory, alfalfa and crimson clover to overseed into an existing plot (I do this ever year to help strengthen the plots and give it some more diversity). Any thoughts on when I should try to seed those 3 things? I am thinking early April, but just wanted to see if anyone had any insight…thanks in advance!

 

[FarmerDan]

Derek, my following comments are just for consideration of all. It's not directed to you. I find I need to offer disclaimers like this because some take my general comments personal and I don't mean for it to be that way. Often questions from sharp contributors like you trigger a thought I would generally like to share.

This is my perspective on frost-seeding. I think the idea and expected results are misunderstood. When water freezes its volume expands. When it thaws it contracts. Works the same way in the soil. Freezing pushes soil particles apart, vice-versa for thawing. This automatic expansion and contraction is a gift giving seeds movement into the soil where they belong. Some seeds do better than others. So, frost-seeding should occur when there are cold, soil freezing temperatures followed by clear days where the sunshine reverses the overnight soil freeze, Soil expansion and contraction, opening and closing.

Where I am we frost seed but we hardly ever have the right situations for it to provide any benefit over simply broadcasting at the right time. In Lycoming County PA I would think now would be an ideal time to be doing it. April seems to me to be too late. I think I would want to do it earlier rather than later but after a winter period where the soil is frozen solid for an extended period of time.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Derek, my following comments are just for consideration of all. It's not directed to you. I find I need to offer disclaimers like this because some take my general comments personal and I don't mean for it to be that way. Often questions from sharp contributors like you trigger a thought I would generally like to share.

This is my perspective on frost-seeding. I think the idea and expected results are misunderstood. When water freezes its volume expands. When it thaws it contracts. Works the same way in the soil. Freezing pushes soil particles apart, vice-versa for thawing. This automatic expansion and contraction is a gift giving seeds movement into the soil where they belong. Some seeds do better than others. So, frost-seeding should occur when there are cold, soil freezing temperatures followed by clear days where the sunshine reverses the overnight soil freeze, Soil expansion and contraction, opening and closing.

Where I am we frost seed but we hardly ever have the right situations for it to provide any benefit over simply broadcasting at the right time. In Lycoming County PA I would think now would be an ideal time to be doing it. April seems to me to be too late. I think I would want to do it earlier rather than later but after a winter period where the soil is frozen solid for an extended period of time.

Thank you for your in depth explanation! I kinda knew the basics, but this gave me some better insight..as for the waiting I had heard that chicory, alfalfa and crimson should all be planted “later”..almost like a “later frost-seeding” and was wondering if anyone had experience with that..I have had great success in the past frost seeding regular red and white clovers, but not with chicory and crimson clover and I am just trying to add some alfalfa for the first time…

 

[FarmerDan]

I have only rarely frost seeded clovers. So, there's that. I do a lot of reading and research. It has led me to conclude I don't want to frost seed anything else. But, the experience of others, as I read it, says it's possible. Diving a little deeper it would seem if seeds like alfalfa and chicory do successfully make it into the soil profile in an early frost seeding they might germinate. If, after the "ideal" germination conditions disappear and normal late-winter - early spring temperatures return a freeze will kill the young tender plants. So, your late frost seeding of alfalfa and chicory looks right!

 

[bigboreblr]

Results can be hard to see if you have those plants n your plot already.

Good bad indifferent, I spread my clover at home zone 5 already. 2 weeks ago. Clvoer yes, alfalfa maybe, no clue on chicory.

Any of those clovers new in your plot? I have frost seeded stuff in november and december up in the adirondacks and it came up. I knew it was the frost seeding because plants I put in were not there before.

I hear farer dans concerns about killing young plants.

Perhaps do an experiment. Frost seed something new every 3 weeks. East end of plot, then middle, then west for example. And see how it does. Results could be particular for the kind of winter / spring your having. No science here really, but I guess your clover is about 30% success. Even worse if you do a early season gly spray. Sspicion, not science. All clovers do not forst seed equally well from what I have read.

Cost vs Benefit. I frost seed some, I do not go nuts with tons of seed. Probably around 5lbs an acre. Got a solo 421 spreader. I barely open it, just enough where you start seeing seed come out. Where I have decent clover I do about 10ft spacing. Where I could use some more clover I do 6ft spacing. I also do 6ft spacing for prepared seedbed seeding in the late summer. I also mix in about 5lbs an acre seed with small grains on establishing or replanting a plot in the late summer. 1/2 seed up top 1/2 seed somewhat deepr in the ground.

Now that I have thought about it some more, I do feel like I wasted seed doing an early spring burning. The established root system saves clover, not the type of plant particularly. Young clover just doesn't have the roots.

The dutch white clover dicussion makes me torn. That stuff just rocks in food plots. But, can be a real pain in no-till. Some days I wnt to buy more, some days I want to avoid it.

I did become quite suprised with clover in 2022. I planted a plot in spring of 2021 in a good fertile spot. Then in 2022 couldnt get up there much. Came in august and it's a swamp of golden rod. I brush hogged it in august, seeded clover and rye, Then that fall have a bounty crop of clover in there. IT was established clover. This plot has never seen roundup yet. It will this year. I am not bothered by the goldenrod summer swamp though.

 

[Maddog66]

When I frost seed my clover plots and spent brassicas, I usually just go to the feed mill and make a blend of whatever clovers they happen to have. 6 or 8 different ones, usually.

But like someone said above, putting clover over clover makes it tough to really tell how much good I’m doing. The only variety I know for a 100% fact that got in my plots because of frost seeding is crimson……because I never planted any of it when I started all my plots with tillage.

When the ground is still frozen, the apple tees are pruned, and all my food plot toys are sitting there ready to roll…….I walk my plots and frost seed mostly just to scratch an itch.

With such a warm year up here so far, I bet 70% of the turnips in my brassicas from last fall are starting to sprout and the clover almost looks like it’s growing. It’s unheard of!!!

 

[bigboreblr]

Be nice to see a show down. Fall vs spring food plot pictures. Rye n clover plots with folks wo frost seed and someone who doesn't

I'm still pretty new to using rye. but, maybe a burndown with clethodim instead of roundup would be better. I'm thinking 2,db would not be young clover firendly, could be wrong there.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I have always frost seeded as kind of an insurance policy in case my fall planted clover is a bust and to add diversity. I think I’m up to like 9 different types of clover planted in the last 2 years and I’m not that good at IDing clover varieties so no idea there..as long as it looks good in fall I don’t. Care

 

[bigboreblr]

You do any spring spraying derek?

I did one 2 years ago at my house foodplot. Seemed to help. I stayed away from mowing and spraying n 2023. Some red aramath came up in there. Im sure it's going to be a nightmare mess. Nothing seemd to be nibbling on those aramath plants either. When I sprayed and seeded n mowed a few days laer in august, the Aramath had mature seed on them. I hand cut most of them while I mowed to remove the seed heads. Debating going back to just clover and keeping it mowed once a month, atleast for the summer. Then doing rye in fall only. Also, picking up some 2,4db. Trying to avoid the temptation of rototilling with my new monster 13hp baretto.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I do spray, last year hit my one plot that I hadn’t gotten a good initial kill on with gly due to a drought with cleth to get the grass out and it worked like a charm. My big weed issue now is canary grass that was already there in spots in my lower wettest field and a little bit of some broadleaf weeds in one of my upper plot. The one I hit with cleth last year has some Carolina horsenettle that is pretty nasty but thankfully there’s not a ton of that….

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Update: seeded some white clover last weekend at my parents/grandparents and will seed some white clover tomorrow with alfalfa/chicory/crimson clover to follow in about 2 weeks..things are really getting green fast here in N PA

 

[PatinPA]

I'm trying some "frost" seeding this year although it was just 77 the other day. Now back in the 30's. We'll give a shot though.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Finally got some white and Alice clover seeded today in my one plot above the house before a good soaking rain tonight and tomorrow. Gonna try to hold off another week or longer for the alfalfa, chicory and crimson, but it looks like this will be the last real cold weather for PA.

 

[Tree Spud]

Just as a clarification, frost seeding is a term and does not mean over seeding clover requires cold weather. The freezing and thawing of the ground this time of year can help draw the seed into soil contact, but you first need to get the seed in contact with the soil. Melting snow and a good heavy rain are very effective in getting the seed in contact with the soil. So whether you seed in the early spring, summer, or fall, timing is only related to getting good rain/snow to get soil contact.

Keep it simple

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Just as a clarification, frost seeding is a term and does not mean over seeding clover requires cold weather. The freezing and thawing of the ground this time of year can help draw the seed into soil contact, but you first need to get the seed in contact with the soil. Melting snow and a good heavy rain are very effective in getting the seed in contact with the soil. So whether you seed in the early spring, summer, or fall, timing is only related to getting good rain/snow to get soil contact.

Keep it simple

Totally agree..I always figured once it got too warm for freezing nights then I just called it overseeding or if there was nothing in that particular field yet..seeding. But hey we gotta make it sound technical so it sounds better. “I just frost seeded my upper field” sounds way better than “I tromped around and broadcast a bunch of stuff into the mud”.